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If Minsc is neutral good....

melakonmelakon Member Posts: 26
in Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition
...why does he try to kill you if you don't agree to help him rescue Dynaheir?

Comments

  • XzarXzar Member Posts: 215
    Because in his eyes you're EVVIIILLL in that case?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited September 2014
    Boo is the one trying to kill you. Dynaheir has the parties grapes. Denying it that as a treat is tantamount to an act of evil. :)
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    I though Minsc was... Oh. His alignment changes. Grrrr... So confusing. Stats, alignment, personality, blah!
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    edited September 2014
    Most important question is:

    If Minsc is Rashemen berserker....

    ...why is he Ranger? :D
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited September 2014
    elminster said:

    Boo is the one trying to kill you. Dynaheir has the parties grapes. Denying it that as a treat is tantamount to an act of evil. :)

    How rude!
  • LordsDarkKnight185LordsDarkKnight185 Member Posts: 615
    Edvin said:

    Most important question is:

    If Minsc is Rashemen berserker....

    ...why is he Ranger? :D

    Because in AD&D 2e Rasheman Berserkers were any warrior class with the berserk ability, and alot of Rashemen berserkers were rangers (The Barbarian class did not exist, in the bg2 sense.)
  • Sorvan76Sorvan76 Member Posts: 76
    melakon said:

    ...why does he try to kill you if you don't agree to help him rescue Dynaheir?

    I find him too volatile and unpredictable to match the alignment of Chaotic Good. Chaotic Neutral suits him better. Even in BG2 at the very start - if you had happened to be in that cage with him, he'd have murdered you in cold blood - if he could bend those bars, he could snap your neck just as easily. :(
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Because he's Neutral Good, not Lawful Good. ;)
  • Sylvus_MoonbowSylvus_Moonbow Member Posts: 1,085
    booinyoureyes said:

    elminster said:

    Boo is the one trying to kill you. Dynaheir has the parties grapes. Denying it that as a treat is tantamount to an act of evil. :)

    How rude!
    Hahaha! That was gold, @booinyoureyes. GOLD!

  • Sorvan76Sorvan76 Member Posts: 76
    Archaos said:

    Because he's Neutral Good, not Lawful Good. ;)

    Lol. The law/chaos part is neither here nor there really. It's the good part! Attacking party members/acquaintances with murderous intent over disagreements is not a good trait. ;)
  • The_GrumpThe_Grump Member Posts: 5
    Well, he does have an INT score of 8 and a WIS score of 6...
    He probably follows simplistic personal convictions on what determines good and evil, so... anybody that disagrees with him would be deemed evil in his book?
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited September 2014
    Besides not being particularly bright, Minsc is short-tempered and (at that particular moment) very distraught.

    The dialogue options you have for turning him down in BG1 are all quite dismissive. You can see how that might push him into a lapse of judgement.

    And of course, alignment is not a straightjacket. Attacking your group is certainly not a Good action, but it's in character for Minsc.
  • Sorvan76Sorvan76 Member Posts: 76
    The_Grump said:

    Well, he does have an INT score of 8 and a WIS score of 6...
    He probably follows simplistic personal convictions on what determines good and evil, so... anybody that disagrees with him would be deemed evil in his book?

    I'd say that puts him in quite firmly in Neutral territory, possibly even Chaotic Neutral, if his decision making is flawed to the point that party members are required to tolerate his violent and/or murderous outbursts based on his rudimentary grasp of what is going on around him! :D
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    edited September 2014
    It... sort of does, but actually doesn't. Minsc is an example of good intentions but horrible, HORRIBLE judgment. He's good-aligned because even if he makes a bad judgment he'll always believe it's a moral decision, whereas a neutral character... may not care so much (and let's be fair, to a child-like mentality refusing to help a defenseless woman against man-eating gnolls is evil, and most of Minsc's other targets of violence probably deserve to die). Doesn't mean he isn't still very dangerous unless he has someone smarter to reason for him (aka Dynaheir/the PC).
  • Sorvan76Sorvan76 Member Posts: 76
    Artemius_I said:

    It... sort of does, but actually doesn't. Minsc is an example of good intentions but horrible, HORRIBLE judgment. He's good-aligned because even if he makes a bad judgment he'll always believe it's a moral decision, whereas a neutral character... may not care so much. Doesn't mean he isn't still very dangerous unless he has someone smarter to reason for him (aka Dynaheir/the PC).

    Hmmm, I dunno. I don't think we can say Minsc is good because he appears to be (or believes he is) well intentioned. In that case, we could potentially justify any evil action as being 'good' just because the person committing the act though it was for the best. Some evil acts and atrocities are committed precisely because people think they are doing the right thing. I think the arbiter of alignment should be the impact of that person's actions on other people's rights and their freedom to do the things they choose. :)
  • Sorvan76Sorvan76 Member Posts: 76
    edited September 2014
    Artemius_I said:

    The thing with Minsc is that everything he does is classified as 'good', but he's so simple-minded that his good acts consist of: 1. bash evil with sword and 2. help heroes. That's literally all he knows to do. Besides, due to Baldur's Gate's lack of variety in dialogue your conversation with him consists of:

    Minsc: My witch has been captured and is helpless against man-eating beasts! Will you please help?
    PC: Nah, we don't care, go away.
    Minsc: You're evil for not helping the defenseless! DIE!

    I'd rather blame the game for this one rather than Minsc, honestly.

    Personally, I view his action with as much weight as Keldorn attacking Viconia for the crime of... being drow and in the party. Considering both are meant to be even more strict to their alignment than usual and Keldorn doesn't even fall, I see Minsc's actions as completely reasonable for him.

    Valuable points, and definitely worth considering. It's a complex subject I suppose - and way too many imponderables for a right/wrong answer. I guess I have my own opinions about it. A character like Minsc in my campaign world would be Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. But I see where you're coming from. :)
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582
    Sorvan76 said:



    I find him too volatile and unpredictable to match the alignment of Chaotic Good. Chaotic Neutral suits him better.

    I've always thought this as well.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited September 2014
    I don't know, guys. Alignment is not about the impact of your actions. It's your attitude towards the world. The actions such attitude motivates are a product of one's judgement and in Minsc's case, it's often poor (or oversimplistic) judgement due to his low intelligence/wisdom. It doesn't make him any less of a Good character.
  • Sorvan76Sorvan76 Member Posts: 76
    Kilivitz said:

    I don't know, guys. Alignment is not about the impact of your actions. It's your attitude towards the world. The actions such attitude motivates are a product of one's judgement and in Minsc's case, it's often poor (or oversimplistic) judgement due to his low intelligence/wisdom. It doesn't make him any less of a Good character.

    In that case, to many Germans living in the WWII era, Hitler was lawful good.
  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    Hitler was sick and he has a psychiatric disease.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Kilivitz said:

    I don't know, guys. Alignment is not about the impact of your actions. It's your attitude towards the world. The actions such attitude motivates are a product of one's judgement and in Minsc's case, it's often poor (or oversimplistic) judgement due to his low intelligence/wisdom. It doesn't make him any less of a Good character.

    The impact of your actions is definitely a huge influence on alignment. After all, working toward the "greater good" through genocide is more Lawful Evil than Lawful Good.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    Edvin said:

    Most important question is:

    If Minsc is Rashemen berserker....

    ...why is he Ranger? :D

    Well I think the real reason is that when BG1 was first released, there were no kits (these were added in BG2). So no berserkers.

    I guess the developers thought ranger fitted better than a default fighter.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Indeed. To properly judge alignment you have to take into accord both the action itself, the reasons for acting that way, and the consequences of the actions. But then again, I also follow the view that alignment changes as you go along, and not one of those who think alignment should dictate what a character is able to do.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Sorvan76 said:

    Kilivitz said:

    I don't know, guys. Alignment is not about the impact of your actions. It's your attitude towards the world. The actions such attitude motivates are a product of one's judgement and in Minsc's case, it's often poor (or oversimplistic) judgement due to his low intelligence/wisdom. It doesn't make him any less of a Good character.

    In that case, to many Germans living in the WWII era, Hitler was lawful good.
    So dictator who advocates for genocide = Ranger with a short temper. Please.

    I'm getting my argument straight from the Player's Handbook here. Alignment is determined by your personality - not by the impact of your actions. Also: not a straitjacket. Good characters are prone to Evil acts in determined circumstances and the opposite is true.

    And not aiming at anyone in particular, but.... second-guessing whatever the writers came up with has always seemed a bit futile IMHO.

    I'll be on my corner until the next "Jaheira should be Neutral GOOD" thread is opened.
  • Sorvan76Sorvan76 Member Posts: 76
    Kilivitz said:

    Sorvan76 said:

    Kilivitz said:

    I don't know, guys. Alignment is not about the impact of your actions. It's your attitude towards the world. The actions such attitude motivates are a product of one's judgement and in Minsc's case, it's often poor (or oversimplistic) judgement due to his low intelligence/wisdom. It doesn't make him any less of a Good character.

    In that case, to many Germans living in the WWII era, Hitler was lawful good.
    So dictator who advocates for genocide = Ranger with a short temper. Please.

    I'm getting my argument straight from the Player's Handbook here. Alignment is determined by your personality - not by the impact of your actions. Also: not a straitjacket. Good characters are prone to Evil acts in determined circumstances and the opposite is true.

    And not aiming at anyone in particular, but.... second-guessing whatever the writers came up with has always seemed a bit futile IMHO.

    I'll be on my corner until the next "Jaheira should be Neutral GOOD" thread is opened.
    I didn't say a Ranger with a short temper was the equivalent of a dictator who advocates genocide. I said that by your reasoning, then from certain peoples' perspectives, the actions of a genocidal dictator could be perceived as just and the right thing to do.

    By the way, Minsc isn't just a Ranger with a short temper. He's a Ranger with a short temper who is willing to destroy people if he doesn't get his own way. That's a fact.
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    edited September 2014
    Even Good characters can get angry. And please be careful with alignment discussions, or I guess we'll quickly see how the former statement holds true even out of the game. :)
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