Npcs and alignment changes
Xavioria
Member Posts: 874
I just realized about a few things from bg2 that are quite interesting. There are npcs that change alignment based on choices you've made throughout the game. Sarevok becomes chaotic good if you redeem him, and Viconia can become true neutral if romanced (or so I hear, I always play a female) then there is anomen who either becomes lawful good or chaotic neutral depending on if he passes or fails his knighthood test.
I think we need more of this in the game. Especially the decision to get certain npcs to switch over to the dark side of things. I would love to turn, let's say, aerie, evil by focusing her anger into hatred... Or something like that...
Edited for clarity
I think we need more of this in the game. Especially the decision to get certain npcs to switch over to the dark side of things. I would love to turn, let's say, aerie, evil by focusing her anger into hatred... Or something like that...
Edited for clarity
14
Comments
Chaotic Evil Aerie click - *with bitter anger* "What, lowlife?!"
I'd actually love that truly. Something I LOVED about Kotor 2... you could change your friends to whatever you liked and preferred!
Lawful Good Edwin click: " How can i help you my cute little monkey ? "
Neutral Good Tiax click: " Democracy will rules all !!! "
Anomen - Start lawful neutral.
Lawful Good if pass on Radiant Hearth test.
Chaotic Neutral if fails Radiant Hearth Exam.
Minsc - Neutral Good on BG. Chaotic Good at the start of BG2, in reason of the death of Dynaheir.
Viconia - Start Neutral Evil in BG.
In Throne of Bhaal, (BG2 expansion), after the yaga-shura battle, IF IN ROMANCE (i almost certain of this):
Viconia will be in shock after the battle, with the amount of corpses generated by the battle and the genocide of the innocents, she then ask to boyfriend main char if he want her to change, if you ask her to change she become True Neutral (Based on @Edvin post below).
Sarevok - Start Chaotic Evil (ToB only NPC).
During the events in throne of bhaal the character will have some NPC banters with sarevok, if you ALWAYS answer the good behavior answers to him, later he will reflect on the past and will rationalize his actions therefore changing to Chaotic Good. It's a funny change cos at the end, a chaotic good Sarevok will council the player to give up bhaal's essence cos he don't need that evil in him, while a chaotic evil Sarevok will cheer the player to accept the essence.
In my view i believe the following NPCs shoud have those alignment change options, i know it's hard to achieve or even impossible due to binds on the copyrights provided by ATARI and WotC, but i will describle them anyway.
Aerie - Lawful Good.
Alignment Change Options - Chaotic Evil
Due to her traumatic experiences on the past, i always found a lawful good behavior something incompatible to her, as if this behavior was just an seal to avoid her true frustations and anger to emerge.
In my opinion, and other people here agree as i see, she shoud have an *Chaotic Evil* alignment change quest/banter.
Anomen - Lawful Neutral (already has Lawful Good and Chaotic Neutral options).
Alignment Change Option - Chaotic Evil
Anomen has a huge amount of evil inside him, he even confess it to main char if there's a romance between them. After failing on the Order Test he become Chaotic Neutral, an unstable and full of anger character. Based on the evil tendencies inside him and his unstable state, a *Chaotic Neutral*Anomen, with the right pushes should be able to become an *Chaotic Evil* Character.
Valygar - Neutral Good.
Alignment Change Option - Lawful Neutral (and class change)
Valygar hate magic, however he never deal with his hate, he chose to become a ranger exactly to avoid his family, walk his own patch. In the game there's many banters, some before and others after Lavok's death, where Valygar speak how magic is bad and Main Char can support or try to change his mind. In my view, a Main Char that feed his hate for magic should be able to convince him to become *Lawful Neutral* (as an fanatic anti-magic) and maybe change him/dual him to Wizard Slayer kit (just hope they upgrade this kit cos WS is a shit kit).
Keldorn - Lawful Good.
Alignment Change Option - Chaotic Good (and class change or keep him as a fallen paladin)
Keldorn catch his wife in bed with another person... while i always convince him to forgive his wife that's not an expected behavior of a person that uphold law, an option where he clean his honor and condemns his wife to death for breaking the law is much more acceptable. If the suggested acts are taken he could review his behavior, Keldorn is a good person by nature and witnessing the evil that law can bring along the destruction of his life, he maybe can have a change of heart and become *Chaotic Good*, i see this as a valid alterative for him.
Those are the NPCs i belive that could benefit from an alignment change, below i list NPCs That doesn't need alignment changes but should have behavior changes on the game:
Haer'Dalis - He's a Doom Guard whom's objective is to uphold entropy, the game doesn't respect much this fact, as Haer'Dalis should reject and disdain any actions that try to preserve something (mostly lawful ones) and sure he should be incompatible with Crend that uphold nature's preservation with too much ardor. A druid stronghold could even benefit from Haer'Dalis presence somehow when Main Char meet the chaos entity.
Nalia - Her alignment is ok for her, but the behavior should change, at ToB i believe she should be more mature, and less naive about society.
Mazzy - Should have some quest involving arvoreen and maybe she should develop some paladin alike powers after some events of the game (killing the evil red dragon), killing the shadow lord... etc....
Well, i focused in BG2 mostly cos BG didn't develop too much their NPCs.
If you read my post to the end, thank you! I doubt many ppl will do the same.
She become True Neutral, no Chaotic Good.
@IchigoRXC, the Characters in BG aren't too much developed in banters, behaviors or background to be possible this kind of deep changes as an alignment change. In BG we only work a NPC background or behavior on the moment they enter the party or when that NPC has a special quest involving him (edwin/minsc for example).
I really hope BG EE change this, but otherwise BG will be just a bit better than IWD in terms of NPC development (after all there's no joinable NPC in IWD). If they can't add banter to BG characters i hope at least that Beamdog drag them to BG2 and develop them there.
For BG my main desire would be an alternative way to get kits. I would like to put them in quests, so everyone would always pick a base kit on character creation (warrior, ranger, cleric, thief...) and inside the game, some quests, items or teachers could help a character to become for example a kensai (if warrior), archer (if archer), a priest of X (if priest)...
YES... talking characters into changing their view on life is one of the things that I remember most fondly of this game. It made me feel like the characters were real and had feelings (and they could reason, and change their minds over previous discussions!).
My fearsome brother, my loving dark angel... and that **** smarmy guy...
NO... I've seen some truly abysmal suggestions... like LG to CE. Not EVERY character has to be susceptible to this. Changing from ANY alignment to ANY other (sometimes opposite) alignment is not possible, in a believable way (unless your name is Harvey Dent and you suffered crushing psychological trauma, facial disfigurement AND massive brain damage all at once... that's the only exception).
Anomen for example was never a good person, he even assume that, so his changes are done in steps, the fail on the order exam make him lost the reason to control himself, therefore turning him chaotic and the hate and rage he already have inside him, can consume him with the proper impulses, turning him evil (in fact he's already evil, he says that in romance, he would only loose the evil he always hold inside him).
Aerie is a mask, that's pretty clear, she was taken from the skies, enslaved, mutilated, her apparent weak behavior is a mask, how herself hide her feelings, in romance with her we have the option to throw that on her face, but doing that will end the romance, what i see as a waste of banters, the girl is a pool of hate contained behind a fake personality.
Every change i suggested has a background and a justify to exist, they're my view of things and if you thought differ than me i will respect that, but believe when i say that the signs that i use as justify ARE THERE.
As we use our own experiences to understand other people, everyone will have a different conception of Aerie's madness I'm sure. With Anomen, I think he just wants the world to organise itself for his benefit, an appropriately religious sentiment - Though what I thought was really strange was that you have to tell him what to do, he couldn't work it out for himself, I bet he looked over Ajantis' shoulder in the paladin exam. When things don't go as planned, well I didn't go down that route so I can't say.
As for Anomen i agree with you, he don't need a push to become anything, but that would ruin the roleplay of the game if main char can't influence on the outcome. The banter prupose of the game would lost sense, we're arguing about a game, not a movie (where your argument of "chose by yourself" would be a principle to be follow).
As chaotic neutral, Anomen romance is a little better, his banters in ToB surelly are more interesting and his end results (after beat the game) surelly are more satisfatory. But i assume that Anomen scripts are in bad shape, as Bioware and Black Isle never did a true separation between CN and LG Anomen, so his banters with non-joinable NPCs through the game will continue mostly the same (what i take as a mistake or lazyness of the devs).
I like the alignment change of Anomen @Worg, it's pretty justified on the events around him, you're just seeing the world in black and white and this is a limited way to look at the world. But i take you don't like him from the words in your post, so i will give you and discount.
In fact there's a huge discussion around CN anomen, as Chaotic Neutral aligned characters should not be able to worship Helm due to alignment conflict. Exist even a mod that turn CN Anomen into Barbarian Class, i never used but make sense in an roleplay point of view.
Unfortunally Anomen is old content and i doubt Beamdog will change him, unseless they work the copyrights lend contract until the release of BG2. I believe addictions can't be restrained so add a evil patch for him should be ok, but change his content in Chaotic Neutral state maybe is forbidden, i don't know.
Obs: CN Anomen worshipping helm is in fact a disrespect to WotC rules, so based in this there's an clause break on the old game in WotC assignment rights probally, but let's Beamdog resolve this.
That's what makes BOTH of his alignment changes believable. No, he isn't evil.
The fact that he is tormented with guilt and beats himself up about it is a HUGE hint you shouldn't have missed. "She is a mask" doesn't mean anything per se.
That under the mask she hides a desire to hurt people is a lie, and you know it.
That she's been traumatized is obvious.
That she's (and I quote) "a pool of hate" is something that exists only inside your mind.
That she might turn Chaotic is unlikely.
That she might turn Evil is impossible.
That she might turn an Axe Crazy, Chaotic Evil, ruthless b**** is just flat out ridiculous.
Not every "broken bird" is going to turn into a psychopath.
PLEASE don't ask for BG characters to become clichés.
Aerie has the power, the reason, and the guillability to be molded. Anomen's turning point was his sister's death. Aerie's is there too. Nalia is another good example of this because of her naive nature. Not EVERY npc should have the option to undergo this change, but it really does add a level of depth as well as allow people to truly personalize their gaming experience.
Anomen is evil if you want to deny it it's your problem. Keldorn speak of Anomen dark side, Korgan call him hypocrite because of his struggle to fight his own nature, he assume he has a dark side (for more details, refer to the romance). His lawful neutral actual alignment represent his struggle to become good, not his nature. You can se that in the Renfield quest (the victim of robbery that start the harper quest) for example, where he show his disdain for ppl, as he only care about his status.
There's no guilt in Anomen, as he put all the blame of his condition in his father, only after his sister death he will reflect on this matter. You have an already made up idea of him, and don't like my view, that's your problem, don't make it mine too, i don't need it.
About Aerie:
"she's a mask" ->mean a lot of things for an inteligent person.
"That under the mask she hides a desire to hurt people is a lie"-> I never said that, it's your prejudice speaking here.
"That she's been traumatized is obvious".-> So why you care in disagree in this? Just for the sake of flame?
"That she's (and I quote) "a pool of hate is something that exists only inside your mind".-> Or maybe you lack the capacity to percept it, did you try the bad options on the romance to see her reaction? No, i'm sure you don't.
"That she might turn Chaotic is unlikely"-> This one i say: only in your mind.
"That she might turn Evil is impossible."-> Of course, cos a enslaved, mutilated, tortured person always become a beacon of light.
"That she might turn an Axe Crazy, Chaotic Evil, ruthless b**** is just flat out ridiculous."-> I agree here, but CE isn't only this, so maybe you shoud expand your mind.
"Not every "broken bird" is going to turn into a psychopath".-> Of course, but they can, it's an option, a possibility.
To finsh, to a person that like to flame others like you, the bullshit level of your comments should at least drop a little. Have to even create some imaginary comments of mine to justify the flame, a pitty, too sad.
Personally I feel that some of these suggestions are too radical; a character's entire perspective is unlikely to change. Aerie doesn't really require an alignment change, I feel: For whatever reason, people already love her the way she is. Other characters perhaps require more development.
Valygar is a good example, though I think he would require a behavioural change, not necessarily an alignment change. He did feel a little neglected compared to other NPCs. It is interesting that you say Nalia doesn't require one; she was one of my favourite characters in BG, and ToB dialogue with her hints heavily at a side-quest to shift her alignment to neutral or evil. I felt it was a pity that this wasn't implemented; she came off rather unpopularly compared to Imoen and Aerie as good-aligned mages, but I felt she had a lot of potential.
All in all though, I don't think the BG2 NPCs require change, just addition. They were all very memorable and interesting in different ways. Though the idea of an alignment change or the chance to educate new NPCs to think differently in BG2:EE doesn't seem like a bad idea! (As long as it's done right, as with everything)
Another thing that is said in the game is that you as the pc is a harbinger of change. Why not have the influence to make or break another npc if that potential is there?
I'm not sure that in bg1 that should be an option because of my reasons mentioned above. If, however, you could be given a choice there too, it seems like Garrick and neera ( off the top of my head) might be good candidates for this as well
As a side note. I hope the new Monk and Wild Mage are Neutral and Good, respectively. Mostly out of team balance requirements.
If they're not, I hope they have the option to switch.
Agreed.
@kamuizin
I agree with a few, disagree with some others;
Aerie - Lawful Good.
Alignment Change Options - Chaotic Evil
I really don't see Aerie as Chaotic Evil on any level. Traumatised and hurt, yes, but she always seemed to the me type to forgive rather than avenge. I think pressuring her or convincing her to turn to evil would earlier make her turn away from you because you remind her of her captors than turn her evil herself.
Anomen - Lawful Neutral (already has Lawful Good and Chaotic Neutral options).
Alignment Change Option - Chaotic Evil
Agreed. He needed only a little push to fail his test and go Chaotic Neutral, with a slightly bigger push (possibly with help from Sarevok in ToB) he could become power hungry and willing to serve Destruction as a Talosite (Talosian?)
Valygar - Neutral Good.
Alignment Change Option - Lawful Neutral (and class change)
I don't see the lawfulness in your description but he never struck me as Good at all. Changing him to Neutral would be good enough for me but I don't particularly care, he's always struck me as v. boring.
Keldorn - Lawful Good.
Alignment Change Option - Chaotic Good (and class change or keep him as a fallen paladin)
I don't see how your explanation shifts his behavior from Lawful to Chaotic, pro-law to anti-law, while retaining his goodness. I'd earlier interpret them as shifting from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral, keeping his respect for law and order but losing the passion to make things right.
However, Keldorn is old, grizzled and wise. I don't think anything could change his alignment by now. He's seen his share and it'll take more than his wife's issues to completely change the beliefs he's built up over the last fifty years.
Haer'Dalis - Agreed, he should disagree with any kind of constructive, preservative behavior. He's a nihilist from what I gathered, they're not big on building things, it's what ruined his relationship with Aerie.
Nalia - Agreed
Mazzy - She already has a bunch of paladin powers. Hell, more than most paladins. I wouldn't mind seeing a sidequest to make her an (honourary) member of the Order of the Radiant Heart though, if only to show they're not racists, that'd be nice. *Something* needs to be done, I agree with that.
Addendum:
Imoen
I'd love to try and bring Imoen down with an evil PC, try and get her to embrace her birthright. Possibly, if you're mean to her right off the bat when you get her in Spellhold, she'll switch to True Neutral (From Neutral Good) because her only hope of rescue and light in darkest times beats her down. From then on, maybe with Sarevok's help, you can convince her to embrace her father's power and gain Bhaalspawn powers.
That'd cement her status as Bhaalspawn (always felt a little tacked on) and make her even more plot important.
I always had that feeling with aerie, but that's maybe just my point of view.
Glad to see that more ppl saw Anomen's dark side, that's was something i thought too obvious to generate disagrees.
I like Valygar, but as you told he lacks some spice, the suggestion was a way to maybe try to fix his dead behavior, he remember me too much Xan from BG for example.
Keldorn as you told, has a solid character because of his age, however i yet feel possibilities on him.
Imoen change is possible (irenicus take care of this for us XD), but should be a long term quest.
If BG EE use a BGT alike system to join BG/BG2, maybe some quests in BG (to turn Imoem evil) could generate unremovable items in Imoem inventory, that when identified by the game during the transition, could load a different .cha version of imoem passible of turning evil. Or we just do as you told, start the changes in Spellhold and finsh them with Sarevok's advices in ToB.
Maybe if someday i learn to mod well i try to make my changes if none of them gets in BG2 EE.
I would personally enjoy a chaotic evil Aerie, but will it happen? Who knows? I just hope that there is more of this from AT LEAST one or two of the new npcs.