I understand how you feel, but that is really not how it went down and that is exactly what David Gaider didn't want to be said. (Don't worry, I feel the same but the mod was based on some forum conversations/ideas and not some leftover plan). So will give you a 'like' even though I disagree with your evidence
Here's the thing, at the time it was in development, it was actively talked about on the BIS boards and some people were doing testing and allowed to comment on the forums about it. So there were many threads saying this is 'how the ending should have been'. Pity I don't have any of those threads archived and the whole forum is gone now. Probably some other people here who remember this stuff and were there too.
As for why it wasn't included in BG2:EE for release, well that was a decision based on some polls that were heavily split and wasn't time contraints - all I can say about that.
Perhaps we have some misunderstanding. I did not mean to imply that Ascension was based on some leftover plans or ideas from the BG2 design team. I understand that it is David Gaider's work and even integrates ideas from the community who helped out with the mod.
All I'm saying is that: 1) David Gaider and perhaps other members of the ToB design team felt the ending wasn't all it could have been due to time constraints 2) David Gaider wished for a more fully realized ending 3) Ascension is his offering of such an ending
This is almost word-for-word what he says in the README. As I argued the disclaimers in 1) and 2) aim to discharge Bioware from any responsibility towards the mod and don't forbid anyone from thinking that ToB would have been a better game, and closer to the designer's wishes, with Ascension as the ending. This doesn't require that the designers had any concrete plans for something like Ascension, but that they would have had such plans if time had allowed for it.
I'm aware that I'm not mounting a very convincing case that Ascension should be the default ending, but at least I'm showing that we're allowed to think that. And that BG2:EE legitimately could have included it, and that arguably that would have made it a better game.
I find very puzzling that you say the decision was based on poll results. First it should be your choice as a design team, you're the competent authority to decide whether that's good for the game or not. Secondly if we're referring to the poll I started (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5418/should-bg2-ee-include-the-ascension-mod-by-david-gaider/p1), 67% voted yes (71% if you count the "only certain components") which is an impressive majority considering that integrating Ascension is no trivial modification to the game. Anyway, it's fine if you don't want to discuss your internal decisions further and I'm not questioning your competence. Just not sure I understand what you meant by that.
@Zeckul Ah yeah, did misunderstand you. You are totally right about that
Guess I should clear up my comment about the polls a bit for everyone: There were other considerations too that I am not allowed to talk about at this time with regards to that decision. Sorry if I gave the impression that it was based on public polls only. There were many convincing arguments 'for' and 'against' both publically and internally. We DO discuss stuff internally ya know
Will see if I can find any more fun tidbits on Ascension development.
@Cuv In your opinion, how many man hours would be needed to integrate the Ascension ending to BGIIEE? I never played the mod, but from what I've read it seems excellent and as far as extra content, this would have been a great addition to the game. If we all send a crate of beer to OG, will they change their minds? /J
That is a good question @MrSexton I have been trying to figure that out myself - I did some work on it already (in my free time), but there is still more to do. ie: For BP2 and Dorn we have an updated Detectable Spells component in BG2:EE so that should really be incorporated into the compatibility. That is not to say that it won't work with the current DS, but ideally all that should be updated. When I have a real estimate, will come back and let you know.
I'm sure the bosses would love a crate of beer, but doubtful it will sway decisions And just a note about my comments here - even I don't know how all the decisions are made, so don't try to read too much into my words I am not trying to cleverly throw you hints, I either don't know or can't talk about some stuff at all.
I would be very happy to code an EE version of Ascension and/or incorporate it as an SCS component (as and when I have time), but ONLY if that's what Cuv wanted. It's his mod (or rather, he's its last remaining active custodian). And so far as I understand it he'd rather do it himself, which is totally his prerogative.
I would be very happy to code an EE version of Ascension and/or incorporate it as an SCS component (as and when I have time), but ONLY if that's what Cuv wanted. It's his mod (or rather, he's its last remaining active custodian). And so far as I understand it he'd rather do it himself, which is totally his prerogative.
"Show of hands" for DavidW making it! This can provide the fastest option for all of us
@Eudaemonium From what I understand the BP Ascension is perfectly compatible and playable. It might be a bit more complicated to install, but not overly so. Not sure how well it integrates with the new EE content (i.e. the new chars), but I'll find out soon. Almost there
@Eudaemonium From what I understand the BP Ascension is perfectly compatible and playable. It might be a bit more complicated to install, but not overly so. Not sure how well it integrates with the new EE content (i.e. the new chars), but I'll find out soon. Almost there
I'm curious as to how well it integrates. Does the new character content still work, for example, or does installing BP Ascension introduce bugs? I kind of assumed there must be some kind of compatibility issues otherwise Cuv wouldn't need to have spent over a year editing it. I play an evil party 9/10, so having Hexxat and Dorn's content not work properly is kind of a deal breaker.
I'm a bit confused about that myself. If BP Ascension is perfectly fine why is there still any talk of adapting Ascension for BG2:EE?
Anyway, now that BG2:EE is out I strongly doubt Ascension will ever make it in a patch - that would be one hell of a patch! But it would sure make me very happy
@Zeckul: While there hasn't been any focused beta-testing of BP-Ascension, I definitely recall at least one major gamebreaker being reported on the forum: some of the Five (Sendai and Abazigal, I think) can't be killed on account of a glitch in their death scripts. It can be worked around with the console and some override files, but... not ideal.
Like I said, while BP Ascension is fine - it doesn't account for any of the new NPC's, nor does it make use of the newer Detectable Spells in BG2:EE. Nor does it account for the new engine code that already got into BG:EE 1.3 patch which is still in progress for BG2:EE some of which can really help to make Ascension smoother and better I think
And yeah, need to get check out that gamebreaker bug and see if its BP only or what.
I would be very happy to code an EE version of Ascension and/or incorporate it as an SCS component (as and when I have time), but ONLY if that's what Cuv wanted. It's his mod (or rather, he's its last remaining active custodian). And so far as I understand it he'd rather do it himself, which is totally his prerogative.
I would welcome your help actually if you were serious sent you a PM.
I would be very happy to code an EE version of Ascension and/or incorporate it as an SCS component (as and when I have time), but ONLY if that's what Cuv wanted. It's his mod (or rather, he's its last remaining active custodian). And so far as I understand it he'd rather do it himself, which is totally his prerogative.
"Show of hands" for DavidW making it! This can provide the fastest option for all of us
Not to be a buzzkill, and definitenly not to suggest that @DavidW shouldn't do what he feels like doing, but isn't both SCS and Wheels of Prophecy (even if the former seems to be presently worked on by members of G3) still in need of some tweaking?
Not to be a buzzkill, and definitenly not to suggest that @DavidW shouldn't do what he feels like doing, but isn't both SCS and Wheels of Prophecy (even if the former seems to be presently worked on by members of G3) still in need of some tweaking?
Yep, I know that @DavidW has been extremely busy, so I don't blame him, but, if I'm not mistaken, the current version of SCS doesn't even install on Tutu (v21 works fine though) and there are some bugs to fix on the enhanced editions too.
Quite abit of busy work for SCS v28 has been recently done by a few users. A ton of fixes work functionally in BG2:EE. If this gives DavidW an increased desire to update SCS sooner, then the better.
I think @DavidW is coming with some kind of December offensive that will patch everything up for SCS:) Maybe, with @Cuv's blessing, they will be able to tackle Ascension as well, before David go on annual hiatus:) Finger crossed. With Ascension, and IR and SR coming - I'm finally good go go:) So close to actually start playing the game, not just translating:)
Actually I'm still on annual hiatus - I went fairly overdrawn on my Infinity Engine time budget in 2013 between SCS, WoP updating, and (most of all) IWDEE. & yes, if - as I expect - I have some spare time this Christmas, I probably want to do some SCS bugfixing first. But after that I'd be interested to play with Ascension, time permitting. As usual, absolutely no promises.
Reading about Ascension, Wheels of Prophecy and SCS, I actually think Ascension should be integrated with Wheels of Prophecy, not SCS. Wheels of Prophecy already reuses one or two bits of Ascension in any case.
SCS can then provide optional tactical enhancements to Ascension (like it already does).
Reading about Ascension, Wheels of Prophecy and SCS, I actually think Ascension should be integrated with Wheels of Prophecy, not SCS. Wheels of Prophecy already reuses one or two bits of Ascension in any case.
SCS can then provide optional tactical enhancements to Ascension (like it already does).
Aye.. at any rate Ascension integration might solve the apparent issues with Wheels of Prophecy in the EE.
I honestly don't know what sort of developer DavidW is, although 'awesome' springs to mind That said, he sounds pretty busy, and while the old saying 'If you want something done, give it to a busy person' is pretty accurate, nevertheless, ..
Well, I'm half of a pair of developers, and unfortunately I'm the one that adds 80% of the bugs. Yes I also add loads of cool and fun features, but my partner typically gets to pick up the pieces after I think I'm done. 'Cowboy coder' is not completely inappropriate.
My point is .. well, Ascension has issues. It's a long fight, possibly the longest in BG, although Tactics Irenecus in hell was also a strong contender. The thing about long fights is, well when they crash out, you feel the need for a stiff drink and .. another stiff drink (Yes OK perhaps my mechanisms for dealing with adversity are somewhat broken).
So .. Ascension. On hard with a full party, or solo on insane, those infinite spawning demons, they can really give you the blues. Specifically, the BSOD. This is not an easy bug to isolate, so if we're choosing between a company with a full QA department, and a brilliant developer with a handful of testers, well frankly, Beamdog FTW.
Perhaps a compromise is in order. DavidW could package a quick and dirty version of the existing Ascension that works on EE, then go help Cuv spend a year demon hunting?
You already have Ascension working in BG2:EE, as already said earlier in that thread. Big Picture contains it, and the other components of BP are not needed if you don't want them.
@Anomaly While BP Ascension is working, it's reportedly bugging for several people (including me, can't finish ToB at all) and it's poor at best with the new content (EE NPCs). A temporary solution for some to be sure (the wait has been long after all) but we REALLY need a proper Ascension release eventually :P
Admittedly, my pipe dream for Ascension:EE goes beyond mechanical compatibility.
The thing is, if we accept as true the stated notion that time constraints were a factor in why David Gaider wasn't entirely happy with ToB's ending... well, I've seen Beamdog devs express the same sentiment regarding some aspects of the EEs' content. Good, could've been better, ran out of time.
If the rationale is the same, and we're moving towards an EE-specific release, isn't this an opportunity to do for the EEs what the original mod did for ToB? To sit down with Andrew Foley and work out a way to restore the cut content from Hexxat's romance, or ask Liam Esler how best to handle Dorn's different endgame states (blackguard/free/sharing divine power with CHARNAME)?
A few new variables, a few lines of dialogue, a new epilogue or two... it doesn't seem like much, but Ascension isn't just about the Big Epic Final Battle. It's the little things, like returning Sarevok's sword after carrying it with you through all of SoA; it's that moment where geasing him comes back to bite you; it's the ability to persuade Balthazar to join you, or to talk Bodhi into one last betrayal; it's about Imoen following your path, becoming a Bhaalspawn, going through the same journey you did.
Little things when taken individually, but they make the story better. And for all that the idea of modifying/adding to mod content is considered taboo, in this specific case - with these specific people working on this specific material - I honestly believe it would be the right thing to do.
Comments
All I'm saying is that:
1) David Gaider and perhaps other members of the ToB design team felt the ending wasn't all it could have been due to time constraints
2) David Gaider wished for a more fully realized ending
3) Ascension is his offering of such an ending
This is almost word-for-word what he says in the README. As I argued the disclaimers in 1) and 2) aim to discharge Bioware from any responsibility towards the mod and don't forbid anyone from thinking that ToB would have been a better game, and closer to the designer's wishes, with Ascension as the ending. This doesn't require that the designers had any concrete plans for something like Ascension, but that they would have had such plans if time had allowed for it.
I'm aware that I'm not mounting a very convincing case that Ascension should be the default ending, but at least I'm showing that we're allowed to think that. And that BG2:EE legitimately could have included it, and that arguably that would have made it a better game.
I find very puzzling that you say the decision was based on poll results. First it should be your choice as a design team, you're the competent authority to decide whether that's good for the game or not. Secondly if we're referring to the poll I started (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5418/should-bg2-ee-include-the-ascension-mod-by-david-gaider/p1), 67% voted yes (71% if you count the "only certain components") which is an impressive majority considering that integrating Ascension is no trivial modification to the game. Anyway, it's fine if you don't want to discuss your internal decisions further and I'm not questioning your competence. Just not sure I understand what you meant by that.
Much respect.
Guess I should clear up my comment about the polls a bit for everyone: There were other considerations too that I am not allowed to talk about at this time with regards to that decision. Sorry if I gave the impression that it was based on public polls only. There were many convincing arguments 'for' and 'against' both publically and internally. We DO discuss stuff internally ya know
Will see if I can find any more fun tidbits on Ascension development.
I never played the mod, but from what I've read it seems excellent and as far as extra content, this would have been a great addition to the game. If we all send a crate of beer to OG, will they change their minds?
I'm sure the bosses would love a crate of beer, but doubtful it will sway decisions
Anyway, now that BG2:EE is out I strongly doubt Ascension will ever make it in a patch - that would be one hell of a patch! But it would sure make me very happy
And yeah, need to get check out that gamebreaker bug and see if its BP only or what.
You heard it here, folks! Spread the word :P
SCS can then provide optional tactical enhancements to Ascension (like it already does).
What are 'IR' and 'SR'?
@Lord_Tansheron
Looks like Christmans is coming early this year!
@Shin
Seconding this.
Well, I'm half of a pair of developers, and unfortunately I'm the one that adds 80% of the bugs. Yes I also add loads of cool and fun features, but my partner typically gets to pick up the pieces after I think I'm done. 'Cowboy coder' is not completely inappropriate.
My point is .. well, Ascension has issues. It's a long fight, possibly the longest in BG, although Tactics Irenecus in hell was also a strong contender. The thing about long fights is, well when they crash out, you feel the need for a stiff drink and .. another stiff drink (Yes OK perhaps my mechanisms for dealing with adversity are somewhat broken).
So .. Ascension. On hard with a full party, or solo on insane, those infinite spawning demons, they can really give you the blues. Specifically, the BSOD. This is not an easy bug to isolate, so if we're choosing between a company with a full QA department, and a brilliant developer with a handful of testers, well frankly, Beamdog FTW.
Perhaps a compromise is in order. DavidW could package a quick and dirty version of the existing Ascension that works on EE, then go help Cuv spend a year demon hunting?
The thing is, if we accept as true the stated notion that time constraints were a factor in why David Gaider wasn't entirely happy with ToB's ending... well, I've seen Beamdog devs express the same sentiment regarding some aspects of the EEs' content. Good, could've been better, ran out of time.
If the rationale is the same, and we're moving towards an EE-specific release, isn't this an opportunity to do for the EEs what the original mod did for ToB? To sit down with Andrew Foley and work out a way to restore the cut content from Hexxat's romance, or ask Liam Esler how best to handle Dorn's different endgame states (blackguard/free/sharing divine power with CHARNAME)?
A few new variables, a few lines of dialogue, a new epilogue or two... it doesn't seem like much, but Ascension isn't just about the Big Epic Final Battle. It's the little things, like returning Sarevok's sword after carrying it with you through all of SoA; it's that moment where geasing him comes back to bite you; it's the ability to persuade Balthazar to join you, or to talk Bodhi into one last betrayal; it's about Imoen following your path, becoming a Bhaalspawn, going through the same journey you did.
Little things when taken individually, but they make the story better. And for all that the idea of modifying/adding to mod content is considered taboo, in this specific case - with these specific people working on this specific material - I honestly believe it would be the right thing to do.