the lich's vulnerability to a weapon the game shoves in your face very early on
An excellent point. Cheesedge and Mace of Cheeseruption are incredibly overpowered The Item Revisions mod adds a save to the effect and they're still really good - but at least Liches are also made immune to it (not sure if through IR or SCS).
Kangaxx killed me the most times, the hardest battle for me (even though it took two tries) is that one with the merilith, siren, drow cleric, etc. in Watchers.
Beholders are supposed to be one of the hardest enemies in DnD, especially Elder Orbs, Hive Mothers and *gasp of horror thinking about the poorly sighted @KidCarnival !!* very much so Beholder Mages... those things are do ridiculous it boggles the mind. They are epic level enemies in 3.5. Think versatile eyerays vs the static ones from 'mere ordinary' beholders.
In PnP, there is almost no way to beat a beholder fairly if they are played as paranoid and intelligent as they are supposed to be. They love ambushes.
It's a bit sad there is no truly "epic" beholder in BG2. Well I guess the Unseeing Eye, but that of course is intended to be cheesed by design. Even the scary scary Elder Orbs or the named beholder in WK are really not all that more difficult compared to regular beholders - which can be quite a thing for unwary players to be sure.
My personal favorite strategy against them is to bait their attacks with meat shields and send in a high APR ranged damage dealer - an Improved Hasted Archer, for example, especially if she's got the Critical Strike HLA. Cleans out a beholder hive like you wouldn't believe! No Shield of Cheese involved, of course.
The Unseeing Eye is a good challenge if you don't use the rod on him.
Only because you're like lvl 8 when you go there a lot of the time
Also I don't really like intentional gimping, that's like saying a mob is a challenge if you fight it without items or spells. True - but also meaningless.
killing the high level mages in the sphere is a huge challenge without cheese (especially with difficulty mods). I dont think I've ever done it. As are pretty much any other high level mages who have access to lvl 7+ spells
Beholders and dragons are extra hard due to the crappy way some of their abilities were implemented. I don't even really need to say anything more about beholders. We all know by now. Dragon spellcasting is a guessing game as to what spells they have up, their dispel magic is always effective because it is based on their dragon level and not their actual proficiency at being a wizard, and apparently their Stoneskin is immune to Breach.
@Schneidend Beholders are supposed to prepare fun traps for their lairs, using their Telekinesis and Disintegration eyes. Think pit traps covered with a stone slab, lairs requiring flight over lava pools (They can dispel magical flight remember!), deadfalls triggered by Disintegrate, etc. The game made them EASIER than they should be, but made them cheesier to offset engine limitations (and prevent Ragequitting).
Even epic parties would have a hard time with 2 or 3 Beholders, let alone invading a hive. *shrug* They are good, but beatable in the game at least!
@Schneidend Beholders are supposed to prepare fun traps for their lairs, using their Telekinesis and Disintegration eyes. Think pit traps covered with a stone slab, lairs requiring flight over lava pools (They can dispel magical flight remember!), deadfalls triggered by Disintegrate, etc. The game made them EASIER than they should be, but made them cheesier to offset engine limitations (and prevent Ragequitting).
Even epic parties would have a hard time with 2 or 3 Beholders, let alone invading a hive. *shrug* They are good, but beatable in the game at least!
I don't have much experience at all with 2E. Certainly no experience with 2E beholders. It just feels like beholders don't stop shooting rays, that they shoot too many of them or have too many of them, so their "turn" simply never ends. With most enemies, you can see when they aren't actually rolling an attack roll, and that they aren't casting a spell, but a beholder is just a non-stop barrage of garbage, and various immunities, resistances, and saving throw bonuses that should be protecting you from them sometimes simply do not. I'm used to fighting/running beholders in 4th Edition, where they shoot like 4-6 rays and then STOP because eventually their damn turn is over like everything else in the game. For that reason, BG2 beholders seem cheap and unreasonable to me, especially in the large swarms they tend to appear.
The hardest fight in a first playthrough is definitely Kangaax. No way to kill him if you don't know what to expect. He's a pushover afterwards though.
Illithids and beholders and also very strong on a first playthrough but are actually rather easy to kill, just by using summons.
Once you have played through the game a few times, i'd say the hardest fights are the one involving an ambush by a well balanced group, especially early in the game. In BG1: - the iron throne fight in chapter 5 (unless you abuse the stairs). lots of casters + some deadly ranged attackers - Prat group in the catacomb. He can fry the whole group with a cast of lightning bolt. he also has one friend has stunning darts and one with elemental arrows
In BG 2: - the ambush in the sewers. Deadly at lower levels - twisted rune. Cheese is almost needed pre HLA. - final seal in watcher's keep. This one is actually not that hard since you're likely to have HLA level characters when you do it (and any HLA level arcane caster will make the game a walk in the park)
Dragons are really not that strong and can be taken early in the game with a wide variety of non-cheesy tactics (several casters casting lower resist + greater malison + save or else spells will do the job nicely).
This is the hardest fight I have done in BG. My recollection is that you are teleported to the fight so there are no preparations like traps or summons you can use. They have a blend of melee and magic users that are very deadly. All that is challenging but the hardest part is that there is a mechanic where every few rounds your party (minus Solaufein who can still move during this) is time stopped and the enemies just run around killing you off. This is the hardest fight I have done even with metagaming due to the timestop mechanic. I am not a huge fan of the Solaufein portion of the mod (don't find the writing compelling) but this is a fun challenge and is much harder than the Ascension final fight or modded Kangaxx, beholders, dragons, etc. that I have seen.
Talking about modded games, the Chosen of Cyric encounter component from Rogue Rebalancing Mod is pretty hardcore. I don't know if harder than Eclipse since I did that long time ago but you have to seriously metagame the sh*t out of that encounter. Or count on the fact that your mage will be able to land a timestop before getting slaughtered which even with Robe of Vecna isn't guaranteed.
Most annoying thing about the encounter is the long animation and dialogue before it which you have no way of skipping. You have to get it right the first or second try because afterwards it's tedious as hell.
got to say i massively goofed my way past kangaxx. after my mage removed some protections from him. i pretty much walked up to him with mod +2, landed a hit, destroyed undead. demilitch form happened (shit myself a bit as i had not read up about this) i then spammed greater whirlwind at him. my second hit destroyed undead and he died easy as that. this was only after 1 reload where he killed me before i even beat his first form. i feel i missed a good fight.
In my opinion the hardest enemy in the game is the one you can't cheese yourself through.
Beholder - Shield of Balduran Undead - Scroll of Protection from Undead Illithid - Chaotic Command + Potions
So in my opinion it would be somewhere between dragons and certain mages in the game.
Then again if you don't count the cheesy items I'll have to say Beholder, they are disgusting with their random chance to stun you, silence you, damage you or just instantly kill you.
In my opinion the hardest enemy in the game is the one you can't cheese yourself through.
Beholder - Shield of Balduran Undead - Scroll of Protection from Undead Illithid - Chaotic Command + Potions
So in my opinion it would be somewhere between dragons and certain mages in the game.
Then again if you don't count the cheesy items I'll have to say Beholder, they are disgusting with their random chance to stun you, silence you, damage you or just instantly kill you.
Honest, non-sarcastic question for @SionIV and everyone else. Is there a discernible difference between cheese tactics and clever use of game mechanics?
In my opinion the hardest enemy in the game is the one you can't cheese yourself through.
Beholder - Shield of Balduran Undead - Scroll of Protection from Undead Illithid - Chaotic Command + Potions
So in my opinion it would be somewhere between dragons and certain mages in the game.
Then again if you don't count the cheesy items I'll have to say Beholder, they are disgusting with their random chance to stun you, silence you, damage you or just instantly kill you.
Honest, non-sarcastic question for @SionIV and everyone else. Is there a discernible difference between cheese tactics and clever use of game mechanics?
This is purely my own opinion, but to put it blunt:
Anything that makes it so that the enemy can't fight back, is cheesing.
When you use a Scroll of Protection from Undead they can't fight back, when you use the Shield of Balduran they will kill themselves while trying to attack you. With the original BG AI protection from magic srolls made it so that mages and clerics couldn't do anything at all against you, with SCS they can still use AoE spells and summon creatures.
Also shutting doors to prevent the enemy from leaving the room falls under the same category, the AI isn't clever enough to open the door so they can't do anything except die from your AoE spells (cloudkill, deathfog).
Using Spell Immunity is a clever game mechanic, same with Negative plane protection against vampires or fire resistance against a dragon, doing this will make you more survivable, but the enemy will still be able to attack you, even if it's not as efficiently.
As a relatively new player, I completely agree with SionIV. I used the Shield of Balduran out of curiosity, and immediately reloaded and got rid of it because it ruined the immersion of the game. Some of the most powerful enemies in Faerun had now become a joke, all because of one dubious item. This didn't make sense to me. I also tended to avoid using scrolls and potions, but that was more because I forgot I had them!
As for difficulty, I had to reload quite often during my playthrough due to lack of meta knowledge, but even then I avoided doing pre-emptive strikes or traps unless I had a thief who had gone ahead to scout the area first. I've always been a roleplayer at heart, but with the BG series especially, I feel like a huge portion of the enjoyment is gone as soon as I even get close to something that is not RP justifiable.
I think the BG series is up there in difficulty with a game like Dark Souls, if played in an RP strict sense. This makes it very compelling for many, particularly myself, as I sincerely enjoy the challenge of classic games and lament the current state of watered down AAA easy-mode games.
Personally, I lose all sense of enjoyment as soon as my suspension of disbelief is disrupted. This includes movies, games, books and any other immersive content. D&D games are unique in that they are based upon an RP foundation, which makes playing them a special treat for a roleplayer.
In the spirit of this thread, I want to do a SCS run, but I see that the mod is not yet available for the EE editions. I will hold off on my next playthrough till it is, because it sounds amazing.
As a relatively new player, I completely agree with SionIV. I used the Shield of Balduran out of curiosity, and immediately reloaded and got rid of it because it ruined the immersion of the game. Some of the most powerful enemies in Faerun had now become a joke, all because of one dubious item. This didn't make sense to me. I also tended to avoid using scrolls and potions, but that was more because I forgot I had them!
As for difficulty, I had to reload quite often during my playthrough due to lack of meta knowledge, but even then I avoided doing pre-emptive strikes or traps unless I had a thief who had gone ahead to scout the area first. I've always been a roleplayer at heart, but with the BG series especially, I feel like a huge portion of the enjoyment is gone as soon as I even get close to something that is not RP justifiable.
I think the BG series is up there in difficulty with a game like Dark Souls, if played in an RP strict sense. This makes it very compelling for many, particularly myself, as I sincerely enjoy the challenge of classic games and lament the current state of watered down AAA easy-mode games.
Personally, I lose all sense of enjoyment as soon as my suspension of disbelief is disrupted. This includes movies, games, books and any other immersive content. D&D games are unique in that they are based upon an RP foundation, which makes playing them a special treat for a roleplayer.
In the spirit of this thread, I want to do a SCS run, but I see that the mod is not yet available for the EE editions. I will hold off on my next playthrough till it is, because it sounds amazing.
SCS does work for both BGee and BG2ee, last time i used it there were a few minor bugs, but nothing that was game breaking.
IMHO, the Shield of Cheeseduran is there solely to provide an easy-ish, reliable way to defeat what is otherwise a pretty frustrating enemy. I could see people getting very, very angry at Beholders, as they are kinda Nintendo Hard, rather than 'challenging'. Beholders are not supposed to be easy, but they also should not result in rage quitting. The original Cloak of Reflection was pretty darn cheesy though, if anyone remembers. I would say a happier medium would be enemies that start getting their attacks reflected that are not golems (IE lacking any intelligence) should PROBABLY change tactics fairly quickly, hence mods that steal the Shield of Balduran.
Green Protection scrolls are meant as a very expensive (relatively speaking, as most battles don't require any consumables if you are either willing to reload or are using very strong tactics, or just abusing engine limitations) solution to a very specific problem... I never have used them really, very rarely used Protection from Magic. The Undead one seems pretty powerful, but it is limited to only undead, making it not necessarily cheesy, but probably an unsatisfying way to kill a Lich, who really should have a way around it with 9 spell levels.
Personally, most tactics that rely on engine limitations (IE shutting a door) are cheese, as are a great many things done with spells. Recharging items is questionably cheesy, but I can totally tolerate one recharge for most items, which is usually tons anyways. I never had to re-recharge the Necklace of Missiles in BG1, even when I rode that horse right through the game with a solo Cleric. Eventually, animated dead were more useful in most fights, and I could just buy Wands of the Heavens to provide artillery.
IMHO, the Shield of Cheeseduran is there solely to provide an easy-ish, reliable way to defeat what is otherwise a pretty frustrating enemy. I could see people getting very, very angry at Beholders, as they are kinda Nintendo Hard, rather than 'challenging'. Beholders are not supposed to be easy, but they also should not result in rage quitting. The original Cloak of Reflection was pretty darn cheesy though, if anyone remembers. I would say a happier medium would be enemies that start getting their attacks reflected that are not golems (IE lacking any intelligence) should PROBABLY change tactics fairly quickly, hence mods that steal the Shield of Balduran.
Green Protection scrolls are meant as a very expensive (relatively speaking, as most battles don't require any consumables if you are either willing to reload or are using very strong tactics, or just abusing engine limitations) solution to a very specific problem... I never have used them really, very rarely used Protection from Magic. The Undead one seems pretty powerful, but it is limited to only undead, making it not necessarily cheesy, but probably an unsatisfying way to kill a Lich, who really should have a way around it with 9 spell levels.
Personally, most tactics that rely on engine limitations (IE shutting a door) are cheese, as are a great many things done with spells. Recharging items is questionably cheesy, but I can totally tolerate one recharge for most items, which is usually tons anyways. I never had to re-recharge the Necklace of Missiles in BG1, even when I rode that horse right through the game with a solo Cleric. Eventually, animated dead were more useful in most fights, and I could just buy Wands of the Heavens to provide artillery.
Green protection scrolls aren't that expensive with the exception of Protection from Magic. The protection from undead scrolls can be found in pretty much every temple and some stores, there are at least 10 scrolls that can be bought in Athkatla alone. The protection from magic makes some of the hardest fights in the game trivial, protection from undead lets you clear the entire of Bodhis lair without getting hit a single time except for the wardens that aren't hard anyway. The protection from undead scrolls also let you kill every single lich in the game with no problem, buy a scroll cheap from Ribald and you can get the Dayster without having the lich being able to do anything. Both the protection from magic and protection from undead let you solo Kangaxx making him trivial as well. Also the entire temple ruins map and dungeon with the exception of the weak wolves can be soloed safely by having a scroll of protection from undead. Let's look at that.
1.) All liches 2.) The entire graveyard 3.) Bodhis lair 4.) Kangaxx 5.) Unseeing eye quest chain (Undead part which is half of it) 6.) Temple Ruins 7.) Vampires and undead in Firkraags dungeon 8.) Bodhis lair the second time 9.) All the undead in ToB which are plenty
As you see those scrolls will make many of the hard places in the game completely trivial to the point that if you buy all the scrolls you should be able to gain at least 1 000 000 experience without ever being in danger of dying.
As a relatively new player, I completely agree with SionIV. I used the Shield of Balduran out of curiosity, and immediately reloaded and got rid of it because it ruined the immersion of the game. Some of the most powerful enemies in Faerun had now become a joke, all because of one dubious item. This didn't make sense to me. I also tended to avoid using scrolls and potions, but that was more because I forgot I had them!
As for difficulty, I had to reload quite often during my playthrough due to lack of meta knowledge, but even then I avoided doing pre-emptive strikes or traps unless I had a thief who had gone ahead to scout the area first. I've always been a roleplayer at heart, but with the BG series especially, I feel like a huge portion of the enjoyment is gone as soon as I even get close to something that is not RP justifiable.
I think the BG series is up there in difficulty with a game like Dark Souls, if played in an RP strict sense. This makes it very compelling for many, particularly myself, as I sincerely enjoy the challenge of classic games and lament the current state of watered down AAA easy-mode games.
Personally, I lose all sense of enjoyment as soon as my suspension of disbelief is disrupted. This includes movies, games, books and any other immersive content. D&D games are unique in that they are based upon an RP foundation, which makes playing them a special treat for a roleplayer.
In the spirit of this thread, I want to do a SCS run, but I see that the mod is not yet available for the EE editions. I will hold off on my next playthrough till it is, because it sounds amazing.
SCS does work for both BGee and BG2ee, last time i used it there were a few minor bugs, but nothing that was game breaking.
Now they're mostly free of bugs, since David came and gave SCS two updates in two weeks, fixing most of the reported bugs.
The definition of cheese is really difficult to give.
if the enemy can't fight back, it's cheesing : while i like this definition (especially applied to prot from undead scrolls), i feel it's too limiting.
As a matter of fact, the main point of well played fight is too prevent the enemy to fight back.
If you use a skeleton warrior against a mage, the enemy can't fight back. If you use a mordy sword, non caster enemy can't fight back (fire giant camp...) If you use timestop, the enemy can't fight back If you use spell trigger x skull trap x 3, the enemy can't fight back If you use PFMW, non caster can't fight back ...
None of these seem really cheesy to me and yet they somehow abuse the poor AI: - intelligent mage would stop targetting the skellie - intelligent giant would run away from the mordy sword or would fight the caster (not that it would do any good due to PFMW...) - ...
Overall, i guess cheese is more a personnal matter.
An Undead Hunter can rofl-stomp Bodhi's lair in Vanilla, the only real threat was level drain. Who cares if the vampires can see you?
Also, seriously, undead in general aren't that serious in vanilla, Mace of Disruption +2 kinda puts a damper on their threat level. Sure, 10-15 vampires at once might kill everyone else, but they are likely dead meat themselves after running into undrainable opposition.
...Where are these 'plenty' of undead in ToB?? Did I miss part of the game?! I remember the tiny vampire nest, which is a joke frankly, and a swamp, which has a bunch of pretty easy undead in vanilla. If you count Watcher's Keep, it still isn't very undead heavy. Undead abound in SoA, but really start to drop off sharply after Bodhi.
Now, I have agree Liches should have some way to counter the effect, due to high level caster abilities, but most of those enemies realistically SHOULD be vulnerable to a niche effect. That said, the Crooked Crane lich is a joke; I used to nuke him ASAP every game, usually using Daystar to do it. Daystar frankly is more unbalanced IMHO than Protection from Undead.
Comments
In PnP, there is almost no way to beat a beholder fairly if they are played as paranoid and intelligent as they are supposed to be. They love ambushes.
My personal favorite strategy against them is to bait their attacks with meat shields and send in a high APR ranged damage dealer - an Improved Hasted Archer, for example, especially if she's got the Critical Strike HLA. Cleans out a beholder hive like you wouldn't believe! No Shield of Cheese involved, of course.
Also I don't really like intentional gimping, that's like saying a mob is a challenge if you fight it without items or spells. True - but also meaningless.
Even epic parties would have a hard time with 2 or 3 Beholders, let alone invading a hive. *shrug* They are good, but beatable in the game at least!
No way to kill him if you don't know what to expect. He's a pushover afterwards though.
Illithids and beholders and also very strong on a first playthrough but are actually rather easy to kill, just by using summons.
Once you have played through the game a few times, i'd say the hardest fights are the one involving an ambush by a well balanced group, especially early in the game.
In BG1:
- the iron throne fight in chapter 5 (unless you abuse the stairs). lots of casters + some deadly ranged attackers
- Prat group in the catacomb. He can fry the whole group with a cast of lightning bolt. he also has one friend has stunning darts and one with elemental arrows
In BG 2:
- the ambush in the sewers. Deadly at lower levels
- twisted rune. Cheese is almost needed pre HLA.
- final seal in watcher's keep. This one is actually not that hard since you're likely to have HLA level characters when you do it (and any HLA level arcane caster will make the game a walk in the park)
Dragons are really not that strong and can be taken early in the game with a wide variety of non-cheesy tactics (several casters casting lower resist + greater malison + save or else spells will do the job nicely).
Most annoying thing about the encounter is the long animation and dialogue before it which you have no way of skipping. You have to get it right the first or second try because afterwards it's tedious as hell.
Beholder - Shield of Balduran
Undead - Scroll of Protection from Undead
Illithid - Chaotic Command + Potions
So in my opinion it would be somewhere between dragons and certain mages in the game.
Then again if you don't count the cheesy items I'll have to say Beholder, they are disgusting with their random chance to stun you, silence you, damage you or just instantly kill you.
Anything that makes it so that the enemy can't fight back, is cheesing.
When you use a Scroll of Protection from Undead they can't fight back, when you use the Shield of Balduran they will kill themselves while trying to attack you. With the original BG AI protection from magic srolls made it so that mages and clerics couldn't do anything at all against you, with SCS they can still use AoE spells and summon creatures.
Also shutting doors to prevent the enemy from leaving the room falls under the same category, the AI isn't clever enough to open the door so they can't do anything except die from your AoE spells (cloudkill, deathfog).
Using Spell Immunity is a clever game mechanic, same with Negative plane protection against vampires or fire resistance against a dragon, doing this will make you more survivable, but the enemy will still be able to attack you, even if it's not as efficiently.
As for difficulty, I had to reload quite often during my playthrough due to lack of meta knowledge, but even then I avoided doing pre-emptive strikes or traps unless I had a thief who had gone ahead to scout the area first. I've always been a roleplayer at heart, but with the BG series especially, I feel like a huge portion of the enjoyment is gone as soon as I even get close to something that is not RP justifiable.
I think the BG series is up there in difficulty with a game like Dark Souls, if played in an RP strict sense. This makes it very compelling for many, particularly myself, as I sincerely enjoy the challenge of classic games and lament the current state of watered down AAA easy-mode games.
Personally, I lose all sense of enjoyment as soon as my suspension of disbelief is disrupted. This includes movies, games, books and any other immersive content. D&D games are unique in that they are based upon an RP foundation, which makes playing them a special treat for a roleplayer.
In the spirit of this thread, I want to do a SCS run, but I see that the mod is not yet available for the EE editions. I will hold off on my next playthrough till it is, because it sounds amazing.
Green Protection scrolls are meant as a very expensive (relatively speaking, as most battles don't require any consumables if you are either willing to reload or are using very strong tactics, or just abusing engine limitations) solution to a very specific problem... I never have used them really, very rarely used Protection from Magic. The Undead one seems pretty powerful, but it is limited to only undead, making it not necessarily cheesy, but probably an unsatisfying way to kill a Lich, who really should have a way around it with 9 spell levels.
Personally, most tactics that rely on engine limitations (IE shutting a door) are cheese, as are a great many things done with spells. Recharging items is questionably cheesy, but I can totally tolerate one recharge for most items, which is usually tons anyways. I never had to re-recharge the Necklace of Missiles in BG1, even when I rode that horse right through the game with a solo Cleric. Eventually, animated dead were more useful in most fights, and I could just buy Wands of the Heavens to provide artillery.
1.) All liches
2.) The entire graveyard
3.) Bodhis lair
4.) Kangaxx
5.) Unseeing eye quest chain (Undead part which is half of it)
6.) Temple Ruins
7.) Vampires and undead in Firkraags dungeon
8.) Bodhis lair the second time
9.) All the undead in ToB which are plenty
As you see those scrolls will make many of the hard places in the game completely trivial to the point that if you buy all the scrolls you should be able to gain at least 1 000 000 experience without ever being in danger of dying.
if the enemy can't fight back, it's cheesing : while i like this definition (especially applied to prot from undead scrolls), i feel it's too limiting.
As a matter of fact, the main point of well played fight is too prevent the enemy to fight back.
If you use a skeleton warrior against a mage, the enemy can't fight back.
If you use a mordy sword, non caster enemy can't fight back (fire giant camp...)
If you use timestop, the enemy can't fight back
If you use spell trigger x skull trap x 3, the enemy can't fight back
If you use PFMW, non caster can't fight back
...
None of these seem really cheesy to me and yet they somehow abuse the poor AI:
- intelligent mage would stop targetting the skellie
- intelligent giant would run away from the mordy sword or would fight the caster (not that it would do any good due to PFMW...)
- ...
Overall, i guess cheese is more a personnal matter.
Also, seriously, undead in general aren't that serious in vanilla, Mace of Disruption +2 kinda puts a damper on their threat level. Sure, 10-15 vampires at once might kill everyone else, but they are likely dead meat themselves after running into undrainable opposition.
...Where are these 'plenty' of undead in ToB?? Did I miss part of the game?! I remember the tiny vampire nest, which is a joke frankly, and a swamp, which has a bunch of pretty easy undead in vanilla. If you count Watcher's Keep, it still isn't very undead heavy. Undead abound in SoA, but really start to drop off sharply after Bodhi.
Now, I have agree Liches should have some way to counter the effect, due to high level caster abilities, but most of those enemies realistically SHOULD be vulnerable to a niche effect. That said, the Crooked Crane lich is a joke; I used to nuke him ASAP every game, usually using Daystar to do it. Daystar frankly is more unbalanced IMHO than Protection from Undead.