Probably the whole Kangaxx quest. Those lichs are pretty tough. Dragons really aren't that big a deal. Well, except for Draconis, but he doesn't show up until TOB.
Mind Flayers, Beholders, Vampires snd especially Kangaxx are really rough if you're doing them wrong. Even Umber Hulks can be a nightmare for the unprepared and illequiped. Done wrong, these guys will anihilate you, done right they are beatable with relative ease.
Hardest brute though would be Adamantine Golems fought without cheese. There is a heck of a battle for Haer Dallis' quest, very challenging early.
The difficulty level of each fight is dependent upon party members, levels, and gear. With the right gear and spells, everything is doable. Without them, there are a lot of very difficult fights.
Twisted Rune is pretty rough in a fair fight with no cheese. That would probably get my vote.
I'd second the Twisted rune. I think it's the only battle in the whole game that cannot be won on the first try without a metaknowledge. A restricted space, many high-level enemy casters, comes unexpected, beholder rays...
We've had a discussion in one of @Blackraven 's threads about this encounter and have come to a conclusion you just can't win it without metagaming. Even without mods.
Surprisingly, I'd second Ilyich as well. With this mod instead of noon shorties you get tough and smart duergars in every corner, many of which have high AC and good THACO, a decent mage and all this while your party doesn't have necessary stuff. A painful experience.
I'd second the Twisted rune. I think it's the only battle in the whole game that cannot be won on the first try without a metaknowledge. A restricted space, many high-level enemy casters, comes unexpected, beholder rays...
We've had a discussion in one of @Blackraven 's threads about this encounter and have come to a conclusion you just can't win it without metagaming. Even without mods.
Surprisingly, I'd second Ilyich as well. With this mod instead of noon shorties you get tough and smart duergars in every corner, many of which have high AC and good THACO, a decent mage and all this while your party doesn't have necessary stuff. A painful experience.
A very high level (tob range, probably a smaller party) might manage it, but yeah, its not remotely reasonable for even a mid-level SoA party. And yeah, the sheer range of opponents really would screw over anyone not crazy prepared. Maybe a high lvl Sorcerer? Eh, probably not without some meta.
Twisted Rune or the Final Fight before Demogorgon ... Think those are the only ones, that still to this day makes me reload a fair bit of times (Unless I'm playing SCS)
Honorable mentions: TorGal (Tactics) is pretty hard if you do it early in the game; so is Improved Faldorn (Tactics). With some extra XP under your belt though, they aren't too tough.
The toughest general enemy would be “Liches” with Kangaxx being the specific one. (Spoilers) He’s the only fight in SoA/ToB that I felt like I “Cheesed” specifically because unless your modding your party has no other way of dealing with imprisonment (Since your mages won’t have level 9 spells). Even if you understand the fight and have all the best gear, your in a race to burn him down before he tosses out imprisonment which just isn’t going to happen…….. I just used my protection from undead scrolls and protection from Abjuration I think on everyone to get around it. If your Charname or Krogan berserk that might be effective but he has a tendency of just targeting whoever isn’t immune and since it’s such a small room and everyone has to go down the stairs together, there’s not much way of hiding………
All other liches in the game are manageable and quite easy once you understand why what is happening is happening and don’t really require cheese tactics or buffing. Even twisted rune I felt like was pretty easy. But to new players Liches are definitely the “WTF”-iest of all fights. Dragons being second, but those fights are fun.
Kangaxx, Twisted Rune, Demogorgon - neither is a big challenge if you know what you're doing
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It may be so, but with any of those (or also Dragons and Beholders) there's a chance of losing a companion or two, so they're still to be considered tough challenges.
Aside from using the shield of Cheeseran, one effective way of dealing with beholders is to have a character with high magic resistance. They can't really do much against such a character.
Well, or send Korgan in after telling him a beholder said he mother was an Elf lover.
Berzerkers are good at dealing with Beholders, but I'd consider tossing on the Belt of Inertial Barrier and make sure you're raged. And support wih ranged.
Traps, Spike Traps in particular, are just very, very silly. Be it dragons, bosses, or beholders, Ol' Spiky blows them to bits just the same. Completely fair.
Now that you've mentioned Irenicus in Suldanesselar, I was wondering who designed his AI, because his spells are used in a way that is much smarter than most liches in the game.
Traps, Spike Traps in particular, are just very, very silly. Be it dragons, bosses, or beholders, Ol' Spiky blows them to bits just the same. Completely fair.
Well, I kinda agree if you are metagaming pretty hard (ie you know where Shangalar will spawn, and heap Skull Traps where you wouldnt normally consider it), but I don't think traps are inherently that bad. If you have a smart thief, he ought to be thinking about where enemies are likely to show up and be crazy prepared, ie Irenicus' second fight.
I agree trapping under a dragon is a bit comical, but couldn't you be a bit discreet about it maybe? How obvious is trap setting? Also, dragons are incredibly arrogant... they might well be ignoring you. Still seems a bit too cheesey though for my tastes.
Still seems a bit too cheesey though for my tastes.
It's so cheesy a winery called for a co-op deal.
Even if you about it "fairly", Spike Traps are anything but. You can plant down a few and lure enemies into them - 20d6 no-save no-questions-asked damage per trap will eat ANYTHING alive within seconds. "Oh this is a dragon lair, I bet there's a dragon somewhere... let's just put down some traps here, poke the ol' lizard, and run like hell." Makes total sense RP-wise, and will oneshot the dragon easily.
But yeah, that's just a side-note to the discussion, and it's inherently linked to other issues like the metagaming you mentioned. It's very hard to be thoroughly "fair" in an RP-sense, because your options and information are more limited in BG than they would be in say a PnP setting. That's just something you have to live with.
That being said, you don't even need a lot of metagaming to kick the vanilla game's butt. A sorceror, for example, can be a walking toolbox that can annihilate any enemy at will, even without prior knowledge. Things like Kensai->Mage are similar, they just punch so hard they leave a crater, and screw the details. Just some of the options available
I'd like to take this opportunity to shamelessly plug some of the better difficulty-enhancing mods, first and foremost among them SCS. While it's been criticized by some of the PnP orthodoxy, I think it's a great balance between PnP "logic" and video game enjoyment for anyone who's played BG more than once or twice. CHALLENGE YOURSELVES!
I'd say Beholders since they come in large groups, permanently kill party members (shattered statues), can cast imprisonment and instantly kill any summons (vs you can just wear down mindflayers with an army of skeletons) without sharing the lich's vulnerability to a weapon the game shoves in your face very early on
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Hardest brute though would be Adamantine Golems fought without cheese. There is a heck of a battle for Haer Dallis' quest, very challenging early.
Twisted Rune is pretty rough in a fair fight with no cheese. That would probably get my vote.
We've had a discussion in one of @Blackraven 's threads about this encounter and have come to a conclusion you just can't win it without metagaming. Even without mods.
Surprisingly, I'd second Ilyich as well. With this mod instead of noon shorties you get tough and smart duergars in every corner, many of which have high AC and good THACO, a decent mage and all this while your party doesn't have necessary stuff. A painful experience.
Kangaxx, Twisted Rune, Demogorgon - neither is a big challenge if you know what you're doing
Modded game:
Kangaxx (SCS/Tactics), Irenicus in Hell (Tactics), Melissan (Ascension), Lunar Eclipse (Solaufein mod)
Honorable mentions: TorGal (Tactics) is pretty hard if you do it early in the game; so is Improved Faldorn (Tactics). With some extra XP under your belt though, they aren't too tough.
All other liches in the game are manageable and quite easy once you understand why what is happening is happening and don’t really require cheese tactics or buffing. Even twisted rune I felt like was pretty easy. But to new players Liches are definitely the “WTF”-iest of all fights. Dragons being second, but those fights are fun.
Berzerkers are good at dealing with Beholders, but I'd consider tossing on the Belt of Inertial Barrier and make sure you're raged. And support wih ranged.
Traps, Spike Traps in particular, are just very, very silly. Be it dragons, bosses, or beholders, Ol' Spiky blows them to bits just the same. Completely fair.
I agree trapping under a dragon is a bit comical, but couldn't you be a bit discreet about it maybe? How obvious is trap setting? Also, dragons are incredibly arrogant... they might well be ignoring you. Still seems a bit too cheesey though for my tastes.
Even if you about it "fairly", Spike Traps are anything but. You can plant down a few and lure enemies into them - 20d6 no-save no-questions-asked damage per trap will eat ANYTHING alive within seconds. "Oh this is a dragon lair, I bet there's a dragon somewhere... let's just put down some traps here, poke the ol' lizard, and run like hell." Makes total sense RP-wise, and will oneshot the dragon easily.
But yeah, that's just a side-note to the discussion, and it's inherently linked to other issues like the metagaming you mentioned. It's very hard to be thoroughly "fair" in an RP-sense, because your options and information are more limited in BG than they would be in say a PnP setting. That's just something you have to live with.
That being said, you don't even need a lot of metagaming to kick the vanilla game's butt. A sorceror, for example, can be a walking toolbox that can annihilate any enemy at will, even without prior knowledge. Things like Kensai->Mage are similar, they just punch so hard they leave a crater, and screw the details. Just some of the options available
I'd like to take this opportunity to shamelessly plug some of the better difficulty-enhancing mods, first and foremost among them SCS. While it's been criticized by some of the PnP orthodoxy, I think it's a great balance between PnP "logic" and video game enjoyment for anyone who's played BG more than once or twice. CHALLENGE YOURSELVES!