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Korgan shouldn't be classified as evil

GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
Or at least should be able to turn neutral. Why? Because of this:

[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/2dsjrcx.png[/IMG]



That really doesn't come across as someone who is chaotic evil. Sure, when you meet him he's a blood thirsty killer, and a mercenary through and through. But Mazzy seems to be able to bring some of the good out in him, or at least make him try.

Maybe its just me, but I think that if you have Korgan and Mazzy in your party, Korgan should turn Chaotic Neutral. Someone who is still a berserker who is pretty darn likely to split you from throat to groin with his axe, but at the same time at least somewhat aware that there are those who deserve such a fate more than others.

kcwiseTommyKnox777dockaboomskilolienJuliusBorisov
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Comments

  • OllmerOllmer Member Posts: 73
    This may be true if your party consists only of PC, Mazzy, Korgan and, probably, Keldorn (Keldorn and Korgan get along pretty well iirc). But considering all of Korgan's interactions with another joinable NPCs (and some un-joinable), his alignment should really change to "Chaotic Evil Bastard".

    elminsterkcwise
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Not chaotic neutral bastard? You can be a world class jerk and not be evil. Look at Korgan and Imoen. If you insult him right back he'll laugh heartily and compliment you. Evil should be more than just being mean.

    Personally I like how Viconia and Amoen can change alignments. It'd be nice to have that for Korgan and Charname as well.

    kcwiseRavenslightlolien
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    scriver said:

    I disagree. Chaotic Evil does not mean being incapable of basic social interaction or of forming friendships.

    I disagree to your disagreement. The word chaotic can bring the inability to understand social interaction or any kind of structured behaviour. Won't go into too much detail on psychology, though.

    Alignments are tricky and leave plenty of leeway. Two people, who are both Chaotic Evil, can be worlds apart in personality. Why couldn't he be "incapable of basic social interaction or of forming friendships", as you say?

    kcwise
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Chaotic Evil can work in groups, look at Sarevok. He has a gang of high level adventurers backing him up, a chick on the side AND piles of hired mercenaries, bounty hunters and assorted riff raff. He is pretty chaotic, but it does not mean he cannot work with others when necessary.

    If chaotic evil can work in a group, clearly social interaction is not always problematic. I would agree with the position that CE only works with others if it is going to offer them some significant dividend they cannot get alone, but lawful irl seems WAY worse at socialization when extreme. Lawful stupid paladins have no friends, not even their God likes them, let alone the heirarchy they serve! :stuck_out_tongue:

    kcwisejackjackBlackraven
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Yannir said:

    Alignments are tricky and leave plenty of leeway. Two people, who are both Chaotic Evil, can be worlds apart in personality. Why couldn't he be "incapable of basic social interaction or of forming friendships", as you say?

    Certainly a CE character could have substantial social difficulties, but the alignment doesn't dictate or require such difficulties. The argument that Korgan can't be CE because he's capable of working in groups requires that social ineptitude be a fundamental part of being CE, but merely that it be possible withing the alignment.

    As to the issue at hand, I don't think a tragic past or not wanting to antagonize your friends/coworkers makes you non-evil. The simple truth is, if the only reason you don't kill random people who annoy you is that your friends would hate you for it, you're evil. Not as bad as some, sure, but you have fear of repercussions where your morality should be. That's not a good trait, and when it comes to things like casual murder, it's not even a neutral one.

    scriverBlackraven
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2015
    Yannir said:

    scriver said:

    I disagree. Chaotic Evil does not mean being incapable of basic social interaction or of forming friendships.

    I disagree to your disagreement. The word chaotic can bring the inability to understand social interaction or any kind of structured behaviour. Won't go into too much detail on psychology, though.
    In the Realms and DnD, this is wrong. Most elves and elven gods are Chaotic. Yet they are considered wise, peaceful, very dedicated to magic or other arts and very civil.

    Being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean that you are schizo and paranoid.

    Also, Sarevok is Chaotic Evil and he ran for mayor and was basically a politician.

    Also, Elminster is Chaotic Good too.

    jackjackDreadKhanBlackraven
  • TommyKnox777TommyKnox777 Member Posts: 22
    edited January 2015
    I feel the same way about Korgan's alignment, there's a thread in the general forum I posted some of my thoughts on him.

    I really don't think he's a bad dude at all.

    I'd have a guy like that in my party anyday, you know he'll never back down, he takes pride in his battle prowess, and seems more trustworthy than many of the "good" aligned characters.

    Oh and thanks for adding that dialogue, that was exactly some of the info I was wanting to find out!

  • OllmerOllmer Member Posts: 73
    Grum said:

    Not chaotic neutral bastard? You can be a world class jerk and not be evil. Look at Korgan and Imoen. If you insult him right back he'll laugh heartily and compliment you. Evil should be more than just being mean.

    Personally I like how Viconia and Amoen can change alignments. It'd be nice to have that for Korgan and Charname as well.

    He is far too insistent in enforcing his point of view to be Neutral for me. PC can easily end up fighting him (this dialog comes without any forewarning), and the full story behind his quarrel with the old party is never told.

  • TommyKnox777TommyKnox777 Member Posts: 22
    Oh he's just having a bit of fun, I like how excited he gets about the prospect of visiting the back rooms of the Copper Coronet.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    Archaos said:


    In the Realms and DnD, this is wrong. Most elves and elven gods are Chaotic. Yet they are considered wise, peaceful, very dedicated to magic or other arts and very civil.

    Being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean that you are schizo and paranoid.

    1. Well, that's just bad design and goes against the system of alignments. Someone should fix that. There are no chaotic societies because the very idea of society is against being chaotic, even chaotic good. As a result, the founders of such societies have to be lawful, and many of the inhabitants have to be neutral. If most of them were chaotic, that kind of communities would be filled with good intentions but bad judgements.

    I'd say Myth Drannor, for example, was an extremely organized society with a royal family, noble-run government and a strong standing military. And for a millennia, it was run by elves. That's lawful behaviour, not chaotic in the slightest.

    2. But, well, being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean NOT being schizo and paranoid either, does it?

    And after some deliberation, I'd say Korgan is Neutral Evil instead of CE. He fights for the highest bidder, that's NE behaviour. The epitome of NE, really.

    jackjack
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,069
    Your 2 isn't relevant. Nobody is trying to say CE can't be crazy. We're saying it doesn't have to be crazy to be CE.

    And no, "fighting for the highest bidder" is not "the epitome of NE". It's just good business sense.

    Archaos
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Society and rules are fundamentally lawful things, but they can still be supported in moderation by chaotic people, in the same way paladins can value individual freedoms and oppose slavery. Having an alignment means your overall trend is in a certain direction, not that your every action and opinion is in line with those trends. Being chaotic evil means you don't care much about other people, beyond the implications for your own happiness, and that you don't care much for being bound by rules. That's all. There's certainly nothing saying you have to be a mass-murdering anarchist.

    My favorite example of chaotic evil, for the record, is Bishop in NWN2. He's clearly a bad person, and he wants nothing at all to do with rules, even ones manipulated to his advantage. He's not above murder, and he's certainly not inclined to help people unless he's getting something out of it, but he's functional in a party, more-or-less tolerates society, and doesn't randomly kill people for fun.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    scriver said:

    Your 2 isn't relevant. Nobody is trying to say CE can't be crazy. We're saying it doesn't have to be crazy to be CE.

    And no, "fighting for the highest bidder" is not "the epitome of NE". It's just good business sense.

    That's precisely what I was trying to say. My point was to imply it's possible. We don't know what's going on under Korgan's hood.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)
    Check for yourself. Maybe it's not the epitome indeed but it fits a NE-character better than a chaotic one.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2015
    Yannir said:

    Archaos said:


    Being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean that you are schizo and paranoid.

    1. Well, that's just bad design and goes against the system of alignments. Someone should fix that. There are no chaotic societies because the very idea of society is against being chaotic, even chaotic good. As a result, the founders of such societies have to be lawful, and many of the inhabitants have to be neutral. If most of them were chaotic, that kind of communities would be filled with good intentions but bad judgements.

    I'd say Myth Drannor, for example, was an extremely organized society with a royal family, noble-run government and a strong standing military. And for a millennia, it was run by elves. That's lawful behaviour, not chaotic in the slightest.

    2. But, well, being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean NOT being schizo and paranoid either, does it?

    And after some deliberation, I'd say Korgan is Neutral Evil instead of CE. He fights for the highest bidder, that's NE behaviour. The epitome of NE, really.
    1. Or maybe your interpretation of the Chaotic alignments is wrong.

    Here are the descriptions of the Chaotic alignments:

    Chaotic Good:

    "Chaotic good combines a good heart with a free spirit.

    A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He is kind and benevolent, a strong individualist hostile to the claims of rules, regulations, and social order. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He will actively work to bring down unjust rulers and organizations and to liberate the oppressed. He finds lawful societies distasteful and will avoid them, often living as a nomad or hermit.

    Noble rebel leaders fighting corrupt or venal regimes, vigilantes acting for what they see as the greater good, mercenaries who only work for the "good guys" and anyone who "robs from the rich to give to the poor" are all examples of chaotic good characters."


    Chaotic Neutral:

    Chaotic neutral is freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.

    A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but does not strive to protect the freedom of others. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character doesn't intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or by evil (and a desire to make others suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.

    A wandering rogue who lives both by work for hire and petty theft is an example of a chaotic neutral character.


    Chaotic Evil:

    Chaotic evil is power without control - selfishness unfettered by any law.

    A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. His plans are haphazard and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

    These characters will commit any act to further their own ends. Chaotic evil is sometimes called "demonic" because demons are the embodiment of chaotic evil.

    Many serial killers would fit this description, as would indeed most of the more violent and reckless criminals found in the worst sorts of places.


    2. That's a logical fallacy: "being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean NOT being schizo and paranoid either, does it?"

    That's like saying: "it doesn't say that gods AREN'T polymorphed hamsters, so they could be".
    No. It doesn't say that chaotic people are paranoid and schizo, therefore they aren't. If they were, they would have mentioned it. End of story.

    You can't say "it doesn't say it, therefore it could be". If it doesn't say it, it's not. That's how rules work.

    Elves are chaotic because they value individualism, freedom, creativity and following the spirit of the law instead of the letter.
    Not because they are insane. And if they are not, their alignment is wrong because that's your interpretation of it.

    Also, don't bring RL philosophy, societies and psychology into DnD. Because it's not RL and it's not made to be like one.
    Also in DnD being Chaotic is not absence of laws and rules or traditions.

    TL;DR: Alignments were made by the creators to be the way they are. They decide what is true or what isn't.
    They made elves chaotic and don't mention insanity for chaotics. Therefore, it's not a matter of debate.

    Just because you disagree, it doesn't change that this is the way it works, because they said so.
    It works like that, because it's their lore and game. Period.

    "In my world, this is the way it works."

    JuliusBorisov
  • AskinwhobeAskinwhobe Member Posts: 16
    Um, Korgan is a prat. But he also gets along with Jan just fine.

    jackjackDetectiveMittens
  • DetectiveMittensDetectiveMittens Member Posts: 234

    Um, Korgan is a prat. But he also gets along with Jan just fine.

    That's all that matters, Jan is life.

    wubblejackjackJLeekcwise
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    jackjack said:

    I always change him to Neutral Evil. He's selfish and brutal, not black-hearted and maniacal.

    He kinda is maniacal. Have you seen his ToB epilogue? The dude just gets more and more pissed off and destructive as time goes on. He goes on a massive rampage on the regular post-TOB, IIRC.

    jackjackArchaos
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @Archaos Let's put an end to this argument and agree to disagree, shall we? This is going off-topic.

  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    Not necessarily agreeing here, but he fits the Planescape idea of Chaotic Evil (I'm taking this from somewhere, I think), in that he is random and varied in his aspects of evil. He empathizes with the enslaved children in the slums, for instance, which is mentioned in BG2 Tweaks.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2015
    @Yannir Sure. My point is that you can disagree with the lore and rules but they are clear on it by the designers.

  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Granted, I can see the objection of some. However Korgan's attempts to reserve his hatred for evil beasts are not necessarily aims which he achieves: he says he will 'try'. Furthermore, evil doesn't necessarily befriend other evil. If Korgan is splitting open the heads of slavers, reveling in his savagery and painting their dens with their own innards, it doesn't make him good by opposition.

    Also, the previous points raised by some others, which I won't long-wind everything by repeating: namely that being a victim of his past doesn't justify his present day actions due to audience sympathy, etc.

    Jarrakul
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Exactly. It doesn't matter what the reasons are. If you do evil, you become evil in DnD.

    You can't say "Well, he enjoys butchering people because this or that in the past, so he's not really evil."
    Actions are far more important than intentions or background, for alignments in DnD.

    jackjackSchneidendDJKajuru
  • Tomato9999Tomato9999 Member Posts: 30
    well, what some of us is doing, is we compare DnD alignments to real world morality.

    But there is no such thing as alignments in the real world. If there was, then certainly nobody would be "Evil".

    Even the "murderers" who got gassed or electricuted have a story and reason to tell, its only the media which wants a good-frightening story which portrays them dat "evil" way

    hence please stop all this alignement bs. Youre not chaotic neutral or neutral good, we IRL humans are much more complicated than that.

    People may think "well I am chaotic good because I like being good but I also like freedom".

    I like to eat apples, does this alone make me a vegetarian?

    Blackraven
  • Tomato9999Tomato9999 Member Posts: 30
    and yes, I think korgan as well as others should be neutral rather than evil.

    I mean, ive been to jail and to shithole and back and i aint never met a truly "evil" person (aside from those people in church who think "god" gave them a right and a mission to kill/teach others their ways)

    Blackraven
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100

    and yes, I think korgan as well as others should be neutral rather than evil.

    I mean, ive been to jail and to shithole and back and i aint never met a truly "evil" person (aside from those people in church who think "god" gave them a right and a mission to kill/teach others their ways)

    EDWIN: 'Tis welcome you find no fault with one such as I.
    ALORA: Smile more often, Edwin. It looks good on you.
    EDWIN: Her company is refreshing but I am surprised I find it so.
    ALORA: Everyone is basically decent, once you get them to unwrinkle their faces.

    BlackravenJuliusBorisovVallmyr
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