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Shapeshifters (werewolves) and Totemic Spirit Animals

BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
edited November 2012 in Original BG2 Bugs
Hello, I tried to find the answer to this in this forum, but there's so much in here, I can't find it. I was hoping maybe somebody could give me a quick answer as to whether this has already been fixed.

Are werewolves going to be fixed in BG:EE? As many people know, there was a hard-coded problem in the original game where druid werewolf forms were not doing what it said in the description. I am not fond of the workaround fixes in the BGTweaks and the Refinements mods.

If somebody knows that this hasn't been addressed already, then consider this my official request to make sure BG:EE has this fixed.

Also, the totemic druid's spirit animals need tweaking. They should scale with level in order to remain useful in late game, and they especially need their attacks to be magically enhanced, perhaps also scaling with level.
Post edited by Balquo on
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Comments

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    edited September 2012
    I think that both mage's Familiar and Totemic Druid's spiritual animals are too powerfull in first Baldur's Gate.

    Familiars, at the very beggining of the game are great tanks for a mage, considering the fact that no legal lvl 1 NPC can have more than 15 HP (Familiars typically have more, up to 28 if I'm correct). Not to mention they posses special spell-like abillities, that are too powerfull (blur, mirror images, terror, invisibility 15-radius etc.) early game. I don't think I have to mention anything about Thac0, AC or resistances.

    About Totemic Druid's spiritual animals ("pets" I mentioned). Most of them, if not all, are immune to normal weapons, which is totally unbalanced in BG1 in general, not only earlygame, due to the fact that most of enemies posseses only normal weapons. Besides, resistancec and overall base stats of spirit animals are way overpowered in BG1 standards.

    My idea is to tweak both Familiars and "Pets", so that they would be much weaker in earlygame, but they power would rise as caster is gaining levels (though Druid's animals in BG1 shouldn't ever be as powerfull as in BGII).

    Majority of those changes can be considered for BGEE2, since idea of summoned companions being stronger over time is interesting, in my opinion.
    Post edited by Bhryaen on
  • WinthalWinthal Member Posts: 366
    edited September 2012
    Not a bug, but rather a balancing issue that came to mind. The totemic druids summon ability is really completely unbalanced in early-game BG2, the animals are simply immune to almost any damage monsters can do to them, and do massive damage in return with incredible speed. Imagine how this would play out if you even got a single totemic summon in BG1... you would dominate pretty much anything that didn't have a +2 weapon or equivalent.
    Post edited by Bhryaen on
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Winthal I have mentioned it here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/214/familiar-and-totemic-druids-pets-tweaks-for-bgee#latest

    Unfortunately, people didn't notice Totemic Druid part.
  • WinthalWinthal Member Posts: 366
    good, as long as someone notices this ASAP. I didn't consider the wizard familiars, though not as unbalanced as the totemic summons, I see your point :)
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    @Coriander :)
    If you see a duplicate thread would you please post a link to the earlier thread and @ me (or someone else, but I don't really know who wants it) so I can take a look at it.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Aosaw I forgot to reply. I want to remind someone that I've also mentionet here TOTEMIC DRUID's tweaks here. That's important. I seriously don't know why people see only Familiars in this.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Ah, I see it now. I should have said, "Familiars have been addressed in a previous thread". You're right about spirit animals being too powerful in BG1; I'm not sure what's the best way to fix that, though.
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Common sense would dictate that their immunity to normal weapons should be removed, for starters.
  • CorianderCoriander Member Posts: 1,667
    @Anton Thanks ;)
  • ScofieldScofield Member Posts: 119
    edited August 2012
    Does anyone know if the shapeshifter kit has been fixed in BGEE?

    I'm talking about the dispel magic bug and a proper rebalancing. There are some mods out there, but those are either overpowered or does not fix the dispel magic bug properly. So if someone knows something about this, please share.
    Post edited by Scofield on
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Skydree Totemic Druid's animals have this immunity. Read with understanding.
  • KithrixxKithrixx Member Posts: 215
    edited September 2012
    One of the biggest reasons you'd want to be a Shapeshifter (to gain the Werewolf creature bonuses) currently (to my knowledge, at least) does not apply. You are given a separate set of bonuses, of which are nowhere near as good as becoming an actual Werewolf, and are not worth losing the ability to wear armor and the access to other shapeshifting forms. If this has been fixed, please feel free to delete/lock the thread, but after looking around I found no mention of it. While a substantial buff, all it's doing is making the Shapeshifter Werewolf forms equal to that of the other Werewolves/Greater Werewolves present in the game.

    Current behavior:
    Werewolf Shapeshift:
    Magic Resistance set to 20%
    1d6 paw damage

    Greater Werewolf Shapeshift:
    Elemental resistance set to 50%
    Magic Resistance set to 40%
    1d6 piercing as a +2 weapon

    Expected behavior:
    Werewolf Shapeshift:
    +20% Magic Resistance
    Immunity to Normal Weapons
    1d12 paw damage

    Greater Werewolf Shapeshift
    THAC0 of 6
    Saves of 1/1/1/2/1
    +40% Magic Resistance
    +50% Elemental Resistance
    Immunity to Normal Weapons
    2d8 slashing damage as a +3 weapon
    3 Hitpoints regenerated per second
    Post edited by Bhryaen on
  • GafanGafan Member Posts: 16
    This has been fixed.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @Gafan
    Was it? Where? Maybe fixed for BG2.
    Expected behavior:
    Werewolf Shapeshift:
    +20% Magic Resistance
    Immunity to Normal Weapons
    1d12 paw damage
    lol ... Well, there's BG1 game balancing for you... Yeah, this may need a rework, but not so that you start off in Candlekeep impervious to, like, nearly everything and slashing up everything in sight. More reasonable would be a gradual "learning" of the druid to assume proper werewolf form. After all, we're not talking a druid lycanthrope, just a druid shapechanging into the form taken by a particular type of lycanthrope. It's a most perplexing class kit to have to rework for lower levels, however- obviously designed as a BG2 kit. *sigh* Frankly I'd like a werewolf form that does something more interesting than just become a slashing machine with magic and damage resistance, so level progression has more surprises. The Shapeshifter Druid (should be renamed the Werewolf Druid) might have insights into the werewolf transformation that simple victims of the curse wouldn't. Any ideas?

    Note that the Totemic Druid summons animals that are also immune to normal weapons, have up to 10 dam per hit (not including STR dam), 3APR, immunity to poison, Hold, Charm, etc... hardly a match for the wily xvart. But that rebalancing at least is, erm, under revision...
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    Well, this is what the kit says of Shapeshifters:
    SHAPESHIFTER: This druid is not called Shapeshifter because he has access to a great variety of forms, rather because of his complete dedication to a single alternate form. This druid has willingly allowed himself to become infected with Lycanthropy, but due to intense study and training he has the ability to control his affliction. The creature he becomes is that of the Werewolf, the most famous of the lycanthrope shape changers.

    Advantages:
    - May shapeshift into the form of a werewolf once per day for every 2 levels (starts at 1st level with one use).
    - At 13th level gains the ability to change into a greater werewolf once per day.

    Disadvantages:
    - No other shapeshifting abilities due to the effort required maintaining balance in his primary forms
    - Cannot wear ANY armor
    So nothing specific regarding stats- and thus a nice open slate. It also leaves less wiggle room for adjustments from the basic werewolf form given that it really is the lycanthropy curse, but the whole "intense study and training... to control his affliction" gives it a different spin... We'll see...
  • kiroskiros Member Posts: 119
    edited September 2012
    Does the Shapeshifter kit need to be revised?

    After probing around various mods I noticed the shapeshifter was apparently not receiving the abilities they were owed and this was addressed in both the Refinements mod and Wiemers BG2 Tweak pack.
    (http://www.spellholdstudios.net/ie/refinements)
    (http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/content.php)

    (An excerpt from Wiemer's BG2 Tweak pack addressing it)
    *Fixes a "bug" where attributes of the CRE file for "PC polymorphed into a Werewolf" were not actually given to the PC by the Polymorph opcode.

    For a normal werewolf:
    You Were Supposed to Receive........You Actually Received...
    Base magic resistance 20%...............Magic resistance locked at 20%
    Immunity to normal weapons...........Nothing
    Paw does 1d12 slashing damage.......Paw does 1d6 piercing damage


    For the greater werewolf:
    You Were Supposed to Receive..........You Actually Received...
    THAC0 of 6.......................................Nothing
    Saves 1/1/1/2/1................................Nothing
    Base elemental resistance of 50%........Elemental resistance locked at 50%
    Base magic resistance of 40%.............Magic resistance locked at 40%
    Immunity to normal weapons.............Nothing
    Paw is +3 weapon.............................Paw is +2 weapon
    Paw does 2d8 slashing damage..........Paw does 1d6 piercing damage
    Regeneration of 3 HP per second.......Nothing

    {To see this for yourself, check out werewodr.cre, weregrdr.cre, brbrp.itm}

    Can anyone speculate on this?
    Post edited by Bhryaen on
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    Probably game balancing. Same thing a DM does in a campaign to keep things 'right'. Players hate it, unless it's in their favor. That's my 2¢ guess. :D
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    I'm not impressed by the Shapeshifter kit anyway. No matter how good the were-form is, transformed characters can't cast spells, use thief abilities or other special powers. The result isn't worth it as far as I' concerned.

    Totemic Druid I see as much better, as even at higher levels you get some quite decent fodder to swarm the enemy with.

    L.
  • KerozevokKerozevok Member Posts: 695
    edited August 2012
    In BG1 the shapeshifter is one of the most powerful kit, with the Weimer "balanced" tweak, he's not only powerful.. he becomes invincible (or almost). This is the difference.
  • kiroskiros Member Posts: 119
    I looked at the immunity to normal weapons and knew that couldn't possibly work. Most if not all would be too overpowered for BGEE, but I did think it was worth noting his other abilities. E.g applying minor regeneration and slashing damage instead of piercing (I think slashing fits the werewolf's profile better).
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,806
    News from the AMAA on Reddit right now on the Shapeshifter:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/z1af7/we_are_overhaul_games_the_team_behind_baldurs/c60meip

    PhillipDaigle wrote:

    The Shapeshifter kit werewolf form was nerfed because normal werewolves were too strong at earlier levels, and they didn't really get a chance to fix it for later levels. While I would like to fix the kit, it will most likely have to be a post-release update due to the number of other features we're focusing on.

    Believe me, it bugs me too.
  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 387
    Maybe shapeshifters could receive the actual things they were meant to get but don't let them have access to their first werewolf shape until level 7. In exchange they get the ability to shapeshift into wolf form at level 1.

    All druids should be allowed to cast spells while shapeshifted (especially the avenger and shapeshifter). Otherwise there is almost no practical reason to shapeshift in the later levels.
  • kiroskiros Member Posts: 119
    edited August 2012
    Weimers shapeshifting re balance included the ability to cast-while-morphed, turned out to be ridiculously overpowered.
    Post edited by kiros on
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Druid shapeshifting needs a looking at generally. I agree entirely with @Dragonfolk2000. There is no reason to shapeshift even in mid-late BG1 as the forms are usually not that beneficial.

    Adding new or upgraded forms at higher levels would make druids compare more favorably to their priestly brethren. I think elemental transformation is available as an HLA, but there's a very big gap from bear to elemental in the meantime.
  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 387
    Corvino said:

    Druid shapeshifting needs a looking at generally. I agree entirely with @Dragonfolk2000. There is no reason to shapeshift even in mid-late BG1 as the forms are usually not that beneficial.

    Adding new or upgraded forms at higher levels would make druids compare more favorably to their priestly brethren. I think elemental transformation is available as an HLA, but there's a very big gap from bear to elemental in the meantime.

    One thing that could be done is to stagger when the forms become available. You get all three of them at the same time and one of the best ways to hide how useful a power is is by releasing it along side a whole bunch of other powers. Forms should become available as the druid becomes stronger and arguably the only forms (not counting HLA ones) that should be able to cast spells are the werewolf, greater werewolf, and fire salamander. These races have been shown capable of casting spells so would it be too far off to assume that their altered shapes could do it as well?

    Devs may consider looking at Polymorph Self and Shapechange as well.
  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 387
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/62142#Comment_62142 for Shapeshifter.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    Okay, thanks, Dragon. It looks like the answer is, the kit will remain broken. That's very disappointing. Not a dealbreaker, though.
  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 387
    belgarathmth said:

    Okay, thanks, Dragon. It looks like the answer is, the kit will remain broken. That's very disappointing. Not a dealbreaker, though.

    Which is why I refer to my own fix: Make the werewolf unavailable until level 7 and the greater werewolf level 14. Give the shapeshifter the ability to shift into wolf at 1st. Make the shapeshift last a number of rounds equal to the druid's level and only grant one shapeshift per form per 5 levels (starting at 1 and gaining a new instance at 5, 10, 15, and so on). The actual stats should be what BG Tweaks brought in. I would say that shapeshifting would become more useful if they also allowed the ability to cast spells while shifted.
  • BubbleboyBubbleboy Member Posts: 68
    Hmm i don't know about any hardcoded problems
    I recently figured out how to use the Nearinfinity editor by messing with it for a few hours and used it to rebalance all the druid forms to my liking.
    Now most of them add a small bonus over your gear, instead of having fixed stats.
    I'm sure you can retweak them as well if you spend a little time on it.
    The only problem i can't seem to change is making the forms undispellable, without making the spell create a droppable/tradable weapon slot item, for the form.
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