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Why do mages always turn lich when looking for eternal life/unlife?

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  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,423

    Vallmyr said:

    Vallmyr said:

    Hm. . . I wonder how the Fey "gods" work. To my knowledge the Seelie and Unseelie court aren't gods at all but just REALLY powerful Fey that can bestow their followers powers just like gods can. If you have faith in them do they intervene on your death?

    In fact, is there a book on Fey deities for the Forgotten Realms? Pathfinder has info on them in the Inner Sea World Guide but for Faerun the only deity that involves Fey and has a lot of info seems to only be Auril.

    Fey are one of the creator races, which waged war with the gods in the Days of Thunder. A time long, long past. As such, fey don't worship any deity and can't even stand the various practices of doing so. So, no, no deities for them I'm afraid. That is of course in AD&D and D&D 3.0/3.5. It's very likey that newer editions botched another unique aspect of Forgotten Realms theology yet again by making fey worship some sort of divine power. Not that I would know, as I don't bother reading the 4th or 5th edition fluff or crunch.
    To my knowledge Fey still despise the gods, I'm more wondering if a mortal pays homage to the Fey Courts are they sent to the wall of the faithless since the Fey Courts (Other than Auril) aren't true gods. Like a Druid/Priest of Titania. He worships her, praises her ideals and spreads her teachings. He dies. He didn't worship an actual god but would Titania intervene and take his soul upon death?
    Titania? As far as I remember she was a full fledged goddess in the Greyhawk AD&D campaign setting. Not sure whenever she had any interest in non-feys to the point of granting spells though. In any case, if Titania exists in the Forgotten Realms as a fey and not a god, then it would be downright impossible to become a druid/cleric/some other class which wields divine magic. Just like demon lords can't bestow divine spells. The self proclaimed believer could however made a pact with said fey. Which would made his or her soul "property" of Titania in the afterlife. Whenever that is a good thing or not is up for debate.
    I wish I could find more info on Titania in Faerun =/
    The only thing I've found referencing her is on Auril's wiki page.
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Auril

    kcwise
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,605
    Here's the link to Xykon the Lich's famous "power" speech, for anyone who's interested:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html

    NonnahswriterJarrakulkcwise
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520

    Here's the link to Xykon the Lich's famous "power" speech, for anyone who's interested:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html

    Sounds oddly familiar...

    image

    :) Thanks for the share.

    BelgarathMTHkcwise
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Xykon and Cersei would be great buddies. I mean, they'd try to kill each other within seconds (and honestly, Xykon would probably win, because he's a very powerful character from a setting with a very high bar for "powerful'), but I think they'd really enjoy each other's company while doing so.

    BelgarathMTHkcwise
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    edited July 2015
    Vallmyr said:

    I wish I could find more info on Titania in Faerun =/
    The only thing I've found referencing her is on Auril's wiki page.
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Auril

    It's a bit complicated in the Realms, but in D&D Titania was listed as "the fey deity of Faerie folk and Realms, Friendship, and Magic." From Here

    Until 4th Edition many parts of the Feywild (the FR plane of Faerie) were far removed from the Prime Material plane and thus were extremely difficult to contact. The Fae on Toril had moved to the Prime during times long ago when the Feywild was closer, and then they populated the land during the time when the Feywild was far away. Once the Spellplague event happened the Feywild was wrenched back in close proximity with the Prime Material again so Titania was presumably able to interact with the world once again. She's listed on this page as one of the entities inhabiting the Feywild: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Feywild

    I'm not sure what the status of the Feywild is after The Sundering of 5th Edition, but it's possible all or part of it has been sent hurdling away from the Prime once again since much of the 4th Edition changes were retconned with 5th.

    Since Auril was revealed as the FR equivalent of the Queen of Air and Darkness (Dragon 367 http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19364 ) my guess is that another god took up Titania's role, although the FR designers have never officially said which one. Some have speculated about Selune, but there's nothing canon about it. Titania has been listed as a god in more than one D&D sourcebook before (2nd Edition Monster Mythology for example) so if she's in the Realms she's likely a deity since the designers have been describing her as such in D&D for quite a long time.

    You might also find this discussion interesting: http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2418936 The posters are talking about the various members of the Seelie and Unseelie courts and their relationship to the Realms. Not all of it is canon.

    Vallmyr
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,423
    edited July 2015
    I actually just found this in the 5e book under Warlock patron but it's the only reference to the Fey Courts. Nothing mentions her in the deity list.
    The Archfey
    Your patron is a lord or lady o f the fey, a creature of
    legend who holds secrets that w ere forgotten before
    the mortal races w ere born. This being’s motivations
    are often inscrutable, and sometimes whimsical, and
    might involve a striving for greater magical power or the
    settling o f age-old grudges. Beings of this sort include
    the Prince o f Frost; the Queen o f Air and Darkness,
    ruler o f the Gloaming Court; Titania of the Summer
    Court; her consort Oberon, the Green Lord; Hyrsam,
    the Prince o f Fools; and ancient hags.

    Anyway, I'll prob start a separate topic on this soon. This has NOTHING to do with Liches. Sorry if I sidetracked things Mr. OP >_<

    Edit: Also thanks for the information! Going to read through these forum posts and such when I can!

    kcwiseSmilingSword
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    So here's my theory.

    It's all about control. Becoming a Lich is about a wizard taking control of his/her destiny and prolonging their lives (presumably) to infinity. Becoming a Vampire means becoming a slave to your vampire master.

    The point was raised, if you were a powerful enough wizard, why not control the vampire and then slay them? Well, the control a vampire has over his/her progeny is not counterable nor is it something that you can protect against. You become that vampire's slave with zero possibility of killing them. And further, you are a direct line slave all the way up the Vampire chain.

    It is true that a lich is kind of icky and disgusting. However, by the point that the wizard is powerful enough to become a lich, sex and good looks are kind of gone by the wayside anyway. POWER is the only and ultimate aphrodisiac and all that a Lich lord desires. And it is the perfect way to control one's destiny.

    In the end, a wizard turns himself into a Lich and in doing so becomes the ultimate master of that which he loves the most, magic. A wizard needs a vampire to become another vampire and then becomes slave, and further they aren't "Mastering" anything nor having anything to do with Magic.

    Sure there are wizards that may choose to become vampires. But a TRUE Arch-wizard will go for Lichdom every time. And then there's the coolness factor. All self respecting evil necromancers aspire to becoming Vecna. They all covet the infamous artifact 'The Skull of Vecna' with it's ruby crystal eyes and it's spell casting affinty. Who wouldn't?

    VallmyrkcwisesemiticgodJuliusBorisov
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited August 2015
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

    Actually manages to sum up why quite nicely, last 2 panels.

    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,605
    @ZanathKariashi , that's the leadup to the "Power is power" speech we talked about above. That battle between V and Xykon before V is defeated and Xykon makes the speech is epic-quality mage fight material, so I'd definitely recommend that anyone who hasn't read it do so.

    I love how Xykon during the fight says "Empowered meteor swarm. Meteor swarm. Meteor swarm..." until he finally says "*another* Meteor swarm." And then, right before he is interrupted from delivering the coup de grace to both V and O Chul by the Monster in the Dark, he sticks his left finger down V's throat and his right finger down O Chul's, and begins to say, one last time, "Meteor sw_uhh?..." *pop* by MitD. "Wh..WHO STOLE MY KILLS?" Lol, great stuff!

  • AlmateriaAlmateria Member Posts: 257
    Because the next best thing - Worm That Walks - is slightly less majestic.
    Also, it's the quickest and the easiest way of attaining immortality with no drawbacks! No being thralled by sentient monsters, no asshole demons/genies, it's easy.

  • AlmateriaAlmateria Member Posts: 257
    Then again, a lich could become a WTW with no problems, I guess.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,861
    DJKajuru said:

    Also, good mages wouldn't necessarily want to be immortal - they would rather create a huge impact with their knowledge, and benefit those around him somehow, rather than keeping all that knowledge with himself, like an evil or neutral mage would.

    I would want to be immortal, the quest for eternal youth or immortality doesn't always have to be evil or viewed as a none good mage idea.

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