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Petition to make Voghiln the Vast a Dwarf

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  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 197
    elminster said:

    Some of you seem to not be very clear on 2nd edition AD&D rules. Allow me to clarify. In tabletop AD&D, Dwarves can never, ever, ever cast wizardly magic. Ever.

    In fairness the game is based off of 2nd edition rules but it has never followed them to the letter. Just ask the mage duergar in Irenicus's lair :)
    True, there are a lot of places where BG et al. diverge from the tabletop rules, but always in the interest of solid gameplay (and always successfully so, I might add).

    Re: Duergar, I've played for a while (in my 2nd ed games) allowing my Duergar villains to have access to wizardry, and I always thought that I must have found some published justification for it somewhere. In my head, it sort of fit: Duergar aren't typical dwarves, they're renegades, and they're into all sorts of profane and un-dwarven things -- like magic! But, after I read your post, @elminster, I realized that the precedent I was using must have been BG2. Which is sort of ridiculous, but I honestly can't find any other 2nd or 1st edition reference to justify this.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870

    elminster said:

    Some of you seem to not be very clear on 2nd edition AD&D rules. Allow me to clarify. In tabletop AD&D, Dwarves can never, ever, ever cast wizardly magic. Ever.

    In fairness the game is based off of 2nd edition rules but it has never followed them to the letter. Just ask the mage duergar in Irenicus's lair :)
    True, there are a lot of places where BG et al. diverge from the tabletop rules, but always in the interest of solid gameplay (and always successfully so, I might add).

    Re: Duergar, I've played for a while (in my 2nd ed games) allowing my Duergar villains to have access to wizardry, and I always thought that I must have found some published justification for it somewhere. In my head, it sort of fit: Duergar aren't typical dwarves, they're renegades, and they're into all sorts of profane and un-dwarven things -- like magic! But, after I read your post, @elminster, I realized that the precedent I was using must have been BG2. Which is sort of ridiculous, but I honestly can't find any other 2nd or 1st edition reference to justify this.
    Duergar could indeed never, ever become arcane spellcasters within the official AD&D rules. However, gray dwarves could become bona fide Psionicists (and Fighter/Psionicists, Psionicists/Thieves, as well as Psionicists/Thief-Acrobats)! And that's even better than becoming a Bard or Wizard.

    So... it would make sense to assume that Black Isle first intended to make that lone Duergar (and possible other enemies as well) a psionic power user. But whenever due engine limitations, time limits, or some other sort of reasoning decided to use the next closest class (i.e. Mage). Well, that's all speculation on my part of course. But still, it would be nice to think that they planned to include more psionic related elements within the game developing phase. At least from my point of view.
  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 197
    I know others have delved more deeply into the inner workings of the IE than I have, and probably can say more about this, but the mind flayers and githyanki in BG2 all use "psionic" abilities that are represented as spell-like abilities, whereas the Duergar are actually classed as wizards (there is one mind flayer enemy, the alhoon, who also has spellcasting ability, however).
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    It would make more sense to assume they just wanted a wizard in the encounter to balance it out and just didn't care that they made the wizard a dwarf.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited August 2015
    There is one very easy way to fix this problem, he got cursed between BG1 and SoD.

    He slept with a mighty tribal kings daughter, this in return had the tribal king curse him in a most foul way! He lost consciousness and once he woke up, he was a dwarf! Minus one Charisma and all! He ended up liking his new form so much (and increase of liquor intake) that he didn't want to break the curse. By a freak accident he ended up removing the curse between SoD and BG2, turning him back, the biggest mistake of his life.

    1.) You guys get continuity
    2.) We get our dwarf
    3.) Beamdog get the most unique and awesome character in any RPG to date (second place to morte only)
    4.) Can you say after me? LEGIT DWARF BARD.
    5.) Opens up an entire new storyline for quests and dialogue with him in the BG2:EE expansion, helping him to find a way back to being a dwarf! Then once you complete his quest YOU (the player) get to make the choice (inspire him) to either keep his human form (+1 charisma) or go back to his dwarf form (+1 con, shorty saves FTW). It's such a good idea that he would fit right into Planescape: Torment, It's THAT good!

    Make it happen! :love:
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