Voghiln the Vast was design to be human. Changing his race because he dresses like a viking hardly justifies a change. However... I am up for another dwarf! In fact... as long as he not stereotypical. Meaning... Kagain and Korgan. I'm NOT asking for another Grimgnaw "NWN" mind you. Something original... without stepping too far out the boundaries of common dwarf. Not asking for a goody goody two shoes either. Something chaotic neutral. Smart but not overly smart like those bloody gnomes.
Anway... i am excited to see what Voghiln the Vast aka human bard has to bring to the table when SoD is released.
What we really need is a badass lady dwarf barbarian. Someone who drinks Korgan under the table, gets handsy with Minsc and Dorn, smacks Anomen in the back so hard he goes flying, and chops bandits in half with a giant axe.
There is a VERY important reason why Voghiln the Vast should not be allowed to descend into dwarfdom. If he did so, he wouldn't be vast anymore! That's totally unacceptable!
In Discworld, being a dwarf is a matter of culture, not genetics. Carrot considers himself a dwarf, and most dwarves accept him as such. He actually appears in several books, so this is expanded upon.
I would actually love to see more "trans-cultural" characters like Carrot. Human stats, dwarf culture and worldview. Or whatever other combination you please. Aerie's actually a borderline example, come to think of it, being an avariel who was adopted by a gnome and became a priestess of a gnome god.
I would actually love to see more "trans-cultural" characters like Carrot. Human stats, dwarf culture and worldview. Or whatever other combination you please. Aerie's actually a borderline example, come to think of it, being an avariel who was adopted by a gnome and became a priestess of a gnome god.
Hmm, I dunno. It's a small minority phenomenon IRL, and likewise in FR and most other fantasy settings. I'm glad that the phenomenon is acknowledged by the presence of Aerie, because it adds some flavour, but I think one playable example is an appropriate and sufficient representation.
I'd actually argue that this sort of thing isn't particularly rare in the real world, even historically speaking. There were plenty of black people in medieval Europe, for example, some of whom had spent their whole lives there. Their race certainly wasn't native to the region, but you'd be hard-pressed to say they weren't culturally European. I have some trouble imagining that being any more rare in the Forgotten Realms, where most of the major demihuman races basically get along.
Regardless, I'm certainly not saying half the NPCs should be unusual race/culture combinations. I'm just saying that it makes sense to include some people like this, and having a couple of them isn't wildly disproportionate. Neither is having none of them, of course, but we generally like our NPCs to be interesting, so they do trend towards the unusual.
< In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human. I don't see a reason why "the vast" can't refer to the fact that he's very tall for a dwarf.
Yes, a Dwarf Skald would break the racial and stat Restrictions, but I feel that's kind of minor. We already have such Breakage with Aerie (illegal race) and Dorn (illegal race) and Minsc (too low WIsdom), etc. I think it helps rather than hurts personally.
Completely wrong argument about Mulahey, there was no half-orc race in BGI. It was fixed only in BGEE.
Well Mulahey was half-orc according to the original game.
True, but the original lacked a "Half-Orc"-race & sprite, so they used the normal sprite since half-orcs look mostly human with some orcish elements according to the lore ^^
Btw, fun-fact, according to what I remember, mage/cleric is a completly legal class for an avariel, so Aeries class is not illegal at all
< In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human. I don't see a reason why "the vast" can't refer to the fact that he's very tall for a dwarf.
Yes, a Dwarf Skald would break the racial and stat Restrictions, but I feel that's kind of minor. We already have such Breakage with Aerie (illegal race) and Dorn (illegal race) and Minsc (too low WIsdom), etc. I think it helps rather than hurts personally.
Completely wrong argument about Mulahey, there was no half-orc race in BGI. It was fixed only in BGEE.
The CRE file coud have said Half-Orc, but it said "Human". There was no reason the CRE file could not have stated his correct race even if they didn't want to make new sprites. So yes, there is precendent for changing both the CRE race name and the sprite!
@Arcanis In the Darksun expanded list: Elves get every multiclass option that Half-Elves got and more:
I was talking about Avariel (aka winged Elfs) in Ferûn, Darksun is another campaign.
Also: Voghiln was envisioned as a Illuskan warrior of great height, thus a human. He was put into the game (BG2EE) as a human skald. Don't you think it is rather rude to ask for a change of their vision AND a retcon just because.... actually, what is the reason in the first place? The skalds are bards of northern (human) barbarians. He is also a bearded guy who drinks, I'm sorry but that is not a reason to make him a dwarf. In the same vain, make Xzar (not great con, beardless, mage) into an elf and mazzy (strong, paladinish fighter) into a human. Or accept that not everyone who has a beard and drinks is a dwarf, since he could be just a regular adult who ..likes to drink.
DISCLAIMER: I'm all for more dwarfs in BG / future beamdog-IP. I would like to see a female dwarf as party member. Dwarf may drink, but they happen to have more to them than that. Have a nice day.
< In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human. I don't see a reason why "the vast" can't refer to the fact that he's very tall for a dwarf.
Yes, a Dwarf Skald would break the racial and stat Restrictions, but I feel that's kind of minor. We already have such Breakage with Aerie (illegal race) and Dorn (illegal race) and Minsc (too low WIsdom), etc. I think it helps rather than hurts personally.
Completely wrong argument about Mulahey, there was no half-orc race in BGI. It was fixed only in BGEE.
The CRE file coud have said Half-Orc, but it said "Human". There was no reason the CRE file could not have stated his correct race even if they didn't want to make new sprites. So yes, there is precendent for changing both the CRE race name and the sprite!
@Arcanis In the Darksun expanded list: Elves get every multiclass option that Half-Elves got and more:
The CRE file in BG1 was a proprietary binary format file inside a BIF archive that was not publicly documented. Assuming that technical details inside the CRE files for non-joinable NPCs are intended to be "canon lore" is a real stretch. The developers didn't see a need to add another race to RACE.IDS (why bother for one creature, especially when it has no in-game function?), so they didn't add HALFORC. When BG2 was released, half-orcs were introduced as a playable race, and the HALFORC ID became necessary. The modders that created Tutu/BGT and the developers of BGEE decided to change Mulahey's RACE ID, not because they were changing the character from Human to Half-Orc, but because the ID was now available.
There are a lot of details of non-joinable CREs that are "wrong" by canon lore, but since they have no in-game effect, don't matter. For example, looking at Tazok's CRE, his listed race is OGRE, even though he's a half-ogre. Why? because there is no HALFOGRE in RACE.IDS, not because he's secretly a full ogre.
Like I wrote earlier BP2 describes him as an "Illuskan warrior." Illuskans are humans. Its a pretty clear cut situation.
Nothing that can't be rectified or explained.
If there was a stronger case to be made for it sure. But humans in Faerun have a pretty broad array of cultural practices and appearances. They also are a far more prevalent race than dwarves in the North (particularly the Sword Coast North). So Voghiln remaining human makes a lot more sense.
If there was a stronger case to be made for it sure. But humans in Faerun have a pretty broad array of cultural practices and appearances. They also are a far more prevalent race than dwarves in the North (particularly the Sword Coast North). So Voghiln remaining human makes a lot more sense.
@elminster There are plenty of dwarves in the North as noted in the North: Guide to the Savage Frontier
DWARVES
The grim, reclusive, and dour dwarves normally separate themselves from other folk. It should be no surprise that few dwarf communities survive here. Ironmaster on the shores of the Cold Run, Citadel Adbar in the Ice Mountains, Mithral Hall, and the newly liberated Felbarr (formerly the Citadel of Many Arrows) are the only holds of any consequence remaining, though several cities, notably Mirabar, Neverwinter, Silverymoon, and Sundabar have dwarven quarters in their walls. Men trade freely in Adbar, but they have few dealings with the isolated dwarves of Ironmaster other than to battle orcs or purchase iron goods. Many other trading concerns are concerned about the stability of Felbarr, as the old citadel is one orc horde away from being leveled.
Dwarves acknowledge but one king, Harbomm of Citadel Adbar, but are more loyal to tribe and clan than to king. Yet in time of need the clans unite under the king's banner. They are the finest forgemen and metalcrafters in Faerûn and produce armor and weapons beyond compare. Merchants of Sundabar still bring magical weapons south from Adbar for sale in distant markets. While the demand for such weapons and armor is high, the production is diminishing.
The number of dwarves is dwindling; the birth of young dwarves doesn't keep pace with battle losses and the deaths of the aged and infirm. Craftmasters die with their secrets and young smiths find too much call for their services in battle. If encountered wandering in the wilderness, dwarves tend to be extremely suspicious of strangers. They think others want to find and loot the halls of their ancestors (which is often what they themselves want to do).
That's a 2E sources talking about Dwarves in the North! Yeah, it's grim, but there are plenty of dwarves in the North. Take a look at the map of Faerun, and look up the locations mentioned above, they're still there:
Yes, there are more humans than dwarves in the North overall, but there are already plenty of human and human bard NPCs.
Yest there are regional differences between humans, but there are two human bards. Making another human bard and claiming that being Northern is distinct enough is like creating a Male Half-Elf Beserker from Yuirwood and claiming that since he's from Yuirwood and not Tethyr makes him distinct from Khalid. Or implying that a Human Conjurer NPC from Calimshan is distinct frrom Edwin because he is Calishite instead of Thayan.
SoD is already going to take away all our dwarves, Yeslick and Kagain. And, all of our bards, Garrick and Eldoth. It would be nice to get a Dwarf Skald NPC in SoD rather than get no Dwarven NPCs there at all!
Don't you think there are plenty of roleplaying, dialogue, and quest opportunities for a Dwarven Skald visiting Kanaglym, a lost Dwarven city? I can think of several roleplaying opportunities there and elsewhere.
According to your link humans in that part of the north represent 65% of the population compared to the dwarves 10%. Due to existing rules humans are also far more likely to be a bard. That's not to say that there couldn't be a dwarf from somewhere in the north that runs into your party, but all things considered it seems far more likely that you would encounter an ale loving human bard from the north than a dwarf bard.
Yest there are regional differences between humans, but there are two human bards. Making another human bard and claiming that being Northern is distinct enough is like creating a Male Half-Elf Beserker from Yuirwood and claiming that since he's from Yuirwood and not Tethyr makes him distinct from Khalid. Or implying that a Human Conjurer NPC from Calimshan is distinct frrom Edwin because he is Calishite instead of Thayan.
So like making Edwin a conjurer from Thay and Dynaheir an evoker from Rashamen and saying they are two distinct characters. Or like introducing Valygar in BG2 and also including Minsc and saying they are distinct characters.
Except the examples I listed are distinct characters (and even the examples you mentioned could prove to be distinct characters). So I'm not sure where you are going there.
All this because I had my wires crossed and made a mistake and now the damn thing just WILL. NOT. DIE.
Voghiln is human. Voghiln was always human. No petition, no self-serving fallacious argument, no mindless regurgitation of irrelevant facts is going to change that. This is who the character is. Let it go already.
Comments
I want a chaotic neutral duergar.
But that also means he looks like a big female dwarf.
I'm calling it: Voghlin the Vast is a girl.
Regardless, I'm certainly not saying half the NPCs should be unusual race/culture combinations. I'm just saying that it makes sense to include some people like this, and having a couple of them isn't wildly disproportionate. Neither is having none of them, of course, but we generally like our NPCs to be interesting, so they do trend towards the unusual.
look mostly human with some orcish elements according to the lore ^^
Btw, fun-fact, according to what I remember, mage/cleric is a completly legal class for an avariel, so
Aeries class is not illegal at all
@Arcanis In the Darksun expanded list: Elves get every multiclass option that Half-Elves got and more:
Also: Voghiln was envisioned as a Illuskan warrior of great height, thus a human.
He was put into the game (BG2EE) as a human skald.
Don't you think it is rather rude to ask for a change of their vision AND a retcon just because....
actually, what is the reason in the first place?
The skalds are bards of northern (human) barbarians. He is also a bearded guy who drinks, I'm sorry
but that is not a reason to make him a dwarf.
In the same vain, make Xzar (not great con, beardless, mage) into an elf and mazzy (strong, paladinish fighter) into a human. Or accept that not everyone who has a beard and drinks is a dwarf, since he
could be just a regular adult who ..likes to drink.
DISCLAIMER: I'm all for more dwarfs in BG / future beamdog-IP. I would like to see a female dwarf as party member. Dwarf may drink, but they happen to have more to them than that. Have a nice day.
In addition to what I've already written. Voghiln the Vast is Beamdog's NPC: they can alter their vision at will as opposed to a Bioware NPC.
There are a lot of details of non-joinable CREs that are "wrong" by canon lore, but since they have no in-game effect, don't matter. For example, looking at Tazok's CRE, his listed race is OGRE, even though he's a half-ogre. Why? because there is no HALFOGRE in RACE.IDS, not because he's secretly a full ogre.
At will.
By their will.
Not yours.
#justsayin
The grim, reclusive, and dour dwarves normally separate themselves from other folk. It should be
no surprise that few dwarf communities survive here. Ironmaster on the shores of the Cold Run,
Citadel Adbar in the Ice Mountains, Mithral Hall, and the newly liberated Felbarr (formerly the
Citadel of Many Arrows) are the only holds of any consequence remaining, though several
cities, notably Mirabar, Neverwinter, Silverymoon, and Sundabar have dwarven quarters in
their walls. Men trade freely in Adbar, but they have few dealings with the isolated dwarves of
Ironmaster other than to battle orcs or purchase iron goods. Many other trading concerns are concerned
about the stability of Felbarr, as the old citadel is one orc horde away from being leveled.
Dwarves acknowledge but one king, Harbomm of Citadel Adbar, but are more loyal to tribe
and clan than to king. Yet in time of need the clans unite under the king's banner. They are the
finest forgemen and metalcrafters in Faerûn and produce armor and weapons beyond compare.
Merchants of Sundabar still bring magical weapons south from Adbar for sale in distant markets.
While the demand for such weapons and armor is high, the production is diminishing.
The number of dwarves is dwindling; the birth of young dwarves doesn't keep pace with battle
losses and the deaths of the aged and infirm. Craftmasters die with their secrets and young smiths
find too much call for their services in battle. If encountered wandering in the wilderness, dwarves
tend to be extremely suspicious of strangers. They think others want to find and loot the halls of
their ancestors (which is often what they themselves want to do).
That's a 2E sources talking about Dwarves in the North! Yeah, it's grim, but there are plenty of dwarves in the North. Take a look at the map of Faerun, and look up the locations mentioned above, they're still there:
Even if you want to strictly limit yourself to the sword coast North, there are still plenty of Dwarves there, 10% of the population: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_Coast_North Neverwinter has plenty of dwarves and the town of Mirabar is a dwarven one http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mirabar
Yes, there are more humans than dwarves in the North overall, but there are already plenty of human and human bard NPCs.
Yest there are regional differences between humans, but there are two human bards. Making another human bard and claiming that being Northern is distinct enough is like creating a Male Half-Elf Beserker from Yuirwood and claiming that since he's from Yuirwood and not Tethyr makes him distinct from Khalid. Or implying that a Human Conjurer NPC from Calimshan is distinct frrom Edwin because he is Calishite instead of Thayan.
SoD is already going to take away all our dwarves, Yeslick and Kagain. And, all of our bards, Garrick and Eldoth. It would be nice to get a Dwarf Skald NPC in SoD rather than get no Dwarven NPCs there at all!
Don't you think there are plenty of roleplaying, dialogue, and quest opportunities for a Dwarven Skald visiting Kanaglym, a lost Dwarven city? I can think of several roleplaying opportunities there and elsewhere.
Please share that with your higher ups.
Thanks,
Bill
Except the examples I listed are distinct characters (and even the examples you mentioned could prove to be distinct characters). So I'm not sure where you are going there.
Voghiln is human. Voghiln was always human. No petition, no self-serving fallacious argument, no mindless regurgitation of irrelevant facts is going to change that. This is who the character is. Let it go already.