Petition to make Voghiln the Vast a Dwarf

billbisco

The Siege of Dragonspear site says: Voghiln the Vast: A skald from the north who inspires his allies with epic tales--as long as the ale keeps flowing.

A drunk from the North who tells inspiring tall tales fits very well within the Dwarven mold. Please make Voghiln the Vast a Dwarf. We already have two human bards.

Thank you.

doggy

A drunk from the north could really be both. But I still vote for human. Just to be the first and thus make it fifty fifty for now.

(you could always EE keeper him in your game)

Gallowglass

No. Unlike the other three new SoD NPCs, Voghiln already exists with a substantial role in BP2 and a minor role in BG2ee. Let's keep him consistent in SoD with what he already is elsewhere, which is Human.

billbisco

Gallowglass said:

No. Unlike the other three new SoD NPCs, Voghiln already exists with a substantial role in BP2 and a minor role in BG2ee. Let's keep him consistent in SoD with what he already is elsewhere, which is Human.

Is there actually dialogue in the BP2 that specifically refers to Voghiln as a human?

jankiel

Lol guess no dwarf love then.

Gallowglass

billbisco said:

Is there actually dialogue in the BP2 that specifically refers to Voghiln as a human?

Erm ... I can't remember. But his character sprite is clearly human, and his .cre files explicitly specify that he's human.

In addition, he's a Bard and has 18 CHA, both of which would be illegal for a Dwarf (although obviously some existing NPCs have "special features" which aren't normally allowed for their race/class, so I realise that isn't necessarily an insuperable objection).

billbisco

Gallowglass said:

billbisco said:

Is there actually dialogue in the BP2 that specifically refers to Voghiln as a human?

Erm ... I can't remember. But his character sprite is clearly human, and his .cre files explicitly specify that he's human.

In addition, he's a Bard and has 18 CHA, both of which would be illegal for a Dwarf (although obviously some existing NPCs have "special features" which aren't normally allowed for their race/class, so I realise that isn't necessarily an insuperable objection).

In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human. I don't see a reason why "the vast" can't refer to the fact that he's very tall for a dwarf.

Yes, a Dwarf Skald would break the racial and stat Restrictions, but I feel that's kind of minor. We already have such Breakage with Aerie (illegal race) and Dorn (illegal race) and Minsc (too low WIsdom), etc. I think it helps rather than hurts personally.

elminster

billbisco said:

In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human.

I'm just going to point out that there was no half-orc animation (or race) available in the original BG1. There is a half-ogre animation and an ogrillon animation but nothing for half-orc's (meaning a creature with human and orc parents). So I'm not sure that is the best example.

billbisco

elminster said:

billbisco said:

In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human.

I'm just going to point out that there was no half-orc animation (or race) available in the original BG1. There is a half-ogre animation and an ogrillon animation but nothing for half-orc's (meaning a creature with human and orc parents). So I'm not sure that is the best example.

Even if there was no animation for a half-orc, the Displayed race in the CRE could still have been Half-Orc. I'm using that to say that errors can happen (and have many a time) in CREs and that's not a big deal to correct or change them.

Thanks,

BIll

Gallowglass

billbisco said:

In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human.

But surely that's simply because "half-orc" didn't exist in original BG1, that race was introduced only with the BG2 engine. He was coded "human" because of a technical limitation, not as a choice.

No such limitation applies in Voghiln's case, who could obviously have been coded "dwarf" if that was what he was designed to be. So no, he's been coded as human because he's meant to be human.

Edit: oh, I see that I've been ninja'ed by @elminster. But never mind, I'll leave my response as it is.

billbisco

Gallowglass said:

billbisco said:

In the original BG1 Mulahey is supposed to be a half-orc, yet his sprite and CRE say he's a human.

But surely that's simply because "half-orc" didn't exist in original BG1, that race was introduced only with the BG2 engine. He was coded "human" because of a technical limitation, not as a choice.

No such limitation applies in Voghiln's case, who could obviously have been coded "dwarf" if that was what he was designed to be. So no, he's been coded as human because he's meant to be human.

I understand, but there's likewise no concrete proof that he has to remain a human and no story contradiction for allowing him to be a dwarf.

Gallowglass

billbisco said:

... no story contradiction ...

Are you sure about that? I can't remember whether or not there's any dialogue specifying his race, but maybe someone who knows BP2 better might be able to give a definitive answer.

AstroBryGuy

Sounds like a good little mod!

deltago

Nah, keep him human.

The game is based on 2 edition rules that state dwarves were resistant to magic (shorty saves), however could not cast it.

It would be hard to explain why a dwarf would be able to cast bardic spells when everyone else of his ilk cannot.

This petition also contradicts your other poll on keeping the new NPCs on par with the old ones.

Nonnahswriter

As much as I would love to see a dwarven skald, it's not gonna happen with this character...

But I voted for it anyway because I wanna see a dwarven skald that much.

Xar105

for me no difference dwarf or human so i choose human.

shawne

deltago said:

The game is based on 2 edition rules that state dwarves were resistant to magic (shorty saves), however could not cast it.

Buuuuut... isn't Mironda (from Neera's SoA quest) a dwarf wild mage?

Paladin

I chose yes, before I realized that Voghiln already appears in the series and is a human. So, I'd rather he remain consistently human. But, I echo the others in that a Dwarf Skald would be awesome.

SmilingSword

I prefer dwarf NPC's to human normally, especially if said NPC happens to be a drunken skald, but if the NPC was written as human, he should stay a human.

deltago

shawne said:

deltago said:

The game is based on 2 edition rules that state dwarves were resistant to magic (shorty saves), however could not cast it.

Buuuuut... isn't Mironda (from Neera's SoA quest) a dwarf wild mage?

Havent met her yet, but a wild mage who is not completely in control of her spell casting ability could be consider an acceptable quirk in the setting.

Grum

Skald just screams dwarf.

Here's an example of norse poetry, the kind of thing that a skald would 'sing' about:

"I’ll ask of the berserks, you tasters of blood,

Those intrepid heroes, how are they treated,
Those who wade out into battle?
Wolf-skinned they are called. In battle
They bear bloody shields.
Red with blood are their spears when they come to fight.
They form a closed group.
The prince in his wisdom puts trust in such men

Who hack through enemy shields."

- Haraldskvæði

Just imagine a dwarf from the north, intoning about the great deeds of the ancestors, of heroes who have come before. Screaming tales about the great misdeeds done by the foes of the dwarfs in the cold north, pushing his comrades to ever greater heights of fury as they are emboldened by the feats of great heroes and reminders of the great wrongs done to them.

It is a bloody shame that dwarfs are not allowed be skalds, and beamdog should rectify that!

doggy

It was still considered very masculine to be a great poet and be able to make hymns in public about kings, earls, and great warriors in Viking society.

The ale thing seems Nordic too.

Quartz

SmilingSword said:

I prefer dwarf NPC's to human normally, especially if said NPC happens to be a drunken skald, but if the NPC was written as human, he should stay a human.

It really is that simple.

Jarrakul

Yeah, I like dwarves as much as the next guy, and I think dwarf skalds make a ton of sense, but if the character was written as a human, he should be a human.

Avenger_teambg

Voghiln is not a new character, (appears in BP2), continuity says he is a human.

billbisco

Avenger_teambg said:

Voghiln is not a new character, (appears in BP2), continuity says he is a human.

@Avenger_teambg already addressed above. No contradiction with ingame text. Vast can mean tall thus human sprite.

elminster

Journal entry in BP2 describes him as being an "Illuskan warrior." That makes him far more likely to be a human than a dwarf (I can't immediately think of any non-human that is called "Illuskan").

Grum

I think that this thread shows beamdog that the fans want another dwarf NPC.

shawne

Grum said:

I think that this thread shows beamdog that the fans want another dwarf NPC.

Jarrakul

Absolutely. I don't want to change an existing character, but you'd better believe I want more dwarves. Dwarves are awesome.

Vasculio

Voghiln the Vast was design to be human. Changing his race because he dresses like a viking hardly
justifies a change.
However... I am up for another dwarf! In fact... as long as he not stereotypical. Meaning... Kagain and Korgan.
I'm NOT asking for another Grimgnaw "NWN" mind you. Something original... without stepping too far out the boundaries of common dwarf. Not asking for a goody goody two shoes either. Something chaotic neutral. Smart but not overly smart like those bloody gnomes.

Anway... i am excited to see what Voghiln the Vast aka human bard has to bring to the table when SoD is released.