Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Cleric/Ranger vs. Fighter/Druid

2»

Comments

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Tommy123 said:

    There is an interesting "bug". A dual-classed Ranger->Cleric gets additional APR on cleric level 7 and 13 like a fighter-type class.

    Interesting bug but seems difficult to leverage. Does it work with the kits? Would a ranger kit make it worthwhile?

  • Tommy123Tommy123 Member Posts: 25
    Wowo said:

    Interesting bug but seems difficult to leverage. Does it work with the kits? Would a ranger kit make it worthwhile?

    To benefit from the "bug" you need to switch early. This way you get a full cleric with some fighting capabilities almost right from the start.

    It works with Kits, but none is really worthwhile. All of them get armor/weapon restrictions, Archer gets Bonus for slings, Stalker/Beastmaster get Stealth bonus. Clubs/quarterstaffs for Beastmaster or Stalker (to use backstab) are bad weapon choices in IWD.

    A plain ranger is far better, but i would only choose it for the druid spells (using the ini-tweak). For an early switch to cleric i would prefer Berserker(3)->Cleric ... gets the same number of attacks with grand mastery (together with +2 THC0 / +3 damage) far earlier.

  • Tad_Has_A_Cold_OliveTad_Has_A_Cold_Olive Member Posts: 183
    For a Fighter/Druid dual-class, is it better to dual at level 3 or at level 7?

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    For a Fighter/Druid dual-class, is it better to dual at level 3 or at level 7?

    Or 9 for max HP, increased THAC0 and progression of kit abilities.

  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    edited August 2015
    dual class fighters at lvl9, HPs are nice but the real reason is because at lvl9 they get 5* in a weapon and thats an extra attack.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Roller12 said:

    dual class fighters at lvl9, HPs are nice but the real reason is because at lvl9 they get 5* in a weapon and thats an extra attack.

    That's not the reason at all. A 7 dual gets a pip at druid (or cleric 8) which provides grandmastery as well (and much sooner than a 9 dual considering that you dual as soon as you get GM in the other case).

  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    Wowo said:

    Roller12 said:

    dual class fighters at lvl9, HPs are nice but the real reason is because at lvl9 they get 5* in a weapon and thats an extra attack.

    That's not the reason at all. A 7 dual gets a pip at druid (or cleric 8) which provides grandmastery as well (and much sooner than a 9 dual considering that you dual as soon as you get GM in the other case).
    Yes it is. And if anything or anyone can invest in fighter only proficiencies after the fighter class becomes locked then its a bug and will be fixed and is an exploit, in either case it has no place here. You can dual a fighter at lvl2 then delay levelling until lvl30 and get multiple grandmasteries too.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Roller12 said:

    Wowo said:

    Roller12 said:

    dual class fighters at lvl9, HPs are nice but the real reason is because at lvl9 they get 5* in a weapon and thats an extra attack.

    That's not the reason at all. A 7 dual gets a pip at druid (or cleric 8) which provides grandmastery as well (and much sooner than a 9 dual considering that you dual as soon as you get GM in the other case).
    Yes it is. And if anything or anyone can invest in fighter only proficiencies after the fighter class becomes locked then its a bug and will be fixed and is an exploit, in either case it has no place here. You can dual a fighter at lvl2 then delay levelling until lvl30 and get multiple grandmasteries too.
    Pretty sure that you aren't the leading authority on what does and doesn't have a place here. If it's an exploit then hopefully it will be fixed in the future but until then it is possible to invest as I described making 3 or 6 the ideal levels to dual into a divine class if GM is the only consideration.

  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    edited August 2015
    Wowo said:


    Pretty sure that you aren't the leading authority on what does and doesn't have a place here. If it's an exploit

    Im not, the rules are, and clearly you dont know them if getting multiple grandmasteries as a mage strikes you as plausible at any moment. And no, using bugs, pretty sure the ideal level to dual is lvl2, and get enough xp for proficients. It seems the game treats these levels as fighter levels too so you also will get all the extra attacks. (i think it was reported already) Enjoy :smile:

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Roller12 said:

    Wowo said:


    Pretty sure that you aren't the leading authority on what does and doesn't have a place here. If it's an exploit

    Im not, the rules are, and clearly you dont know them if getting multiple grandmasteries as a mage strikes you as plausible at any moment. And no, using bugs, pretty sure the ideal level to dual is lvl2, and get enough xp for proficients. It seems the game treats these levels as fighter levels too so you also will get all the extra attacks. (i think it was reported already) Enjoy :smile:

    I'm fairly informed about the rules I think you'll find but I'm sure everyone enjoys reading how personal you like to be in your responses.

    I assume that you're referring to a specific bug that impacts ranger/cleric dual and is almost entirely useless. Not sure about its relevance here.

    I've yet to see any evidence that specialising after dual classing is against the rules. That said I've long held the opinion that Grandmastery itself needs to be overhauled to be more balanced.

  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    Wowo said:


    I've yet to see any evidence that specialising after dual classing is against the rules.

    I think the fact that the game doesnt allow it is a fairly good sign that it isnt allowed.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    edited August 2015
    @Wowo: specializing after dual-class is indeed very much against the rules. I'm not sure what "evidence you need... are the AD&D rulebooks not enough? Alas, BG/BG2/IWD have broken this rule from the very beginning and I don't think anyone on the dev team considers it a bug. (Which is unfortunate, because is is a completely broken mechanic and totally, utterly against the rules.)

    Happily, @roller12, I have devised a way to fix this with a mod. I've incorporated the fix into the "Proficiency Overhaul" component of my Scales of Balance mod... the component itself is NOT PnP-friendly, it's a house-ruled proficiency and thac0 system that scales combat ability more smoothly from fighters to rangers/paladins to rogues to clerics to mages. So you may not like all the changes that accompany this fix.

    If there's interest, I might be able to isolate the dual-class rule-breaking specialization bug fix as a standalone 'hardcore' mod... LMK

    Roller12
  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    @subtledoctor Oh my, you are right, i guess i got too used to playing with BG2fixpack. i think there might be interest in such a mod since the game force-throws points at us and at higher levels it may become a problem so i least me, i would definitely use that.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Roller12 said:

    Wowo said:


    I've yet to see any evidence that specialising after dual classing is against the rules.

    I think the fact that the game doesnt allow it is a fairly good sign that it isnt allowed.

    The game in fact does allow it, so I guess you have proven yourself wrong.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    Roller12 said:

    Wowo said:


    I've yet to see any evidence that specialising after dual classing is against the rules.

    I think the fact that the game doesnt allow it is a fairly good sign that it isnt allowed.

    The game in fact does allow it, so I guess you have proven yourself wrong.
    My point.

    Against the rules in AD&D does not make it against the rules in an IE game. For starters the IE games use a loose translation of the rules. Secondly, all D&D rules are open to the interpretation of the GM. Finally, as we've noted, the best indication of whether something is allowed in an IE games is whether or not you can actually do it; at least until there is official word to the contrary.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    edited August 2015
    Oh come on, let's stop splitting hairs. Roller12 was mistaken about the IE but his point - that investing in weapon specialization beyond the limits of your current, active class is against the AD&D rules and therefore an exploit - is 100% correct. Yes, AD&D allows house rules. Yes, the particular rules of each IE game involve what are, in essence, a bunch of house rules. The code is the DM, basically, so whatever the code says can be construed as a decision by the DM.

    Except, first, the code has limits. It was really hard to translate AD&D to a computer game back in 1999. The rules say you can be multiclass, and you will get all of the abilities that both classes have. But R/Cs got some abilities that neither of the underlying classes had. That wasn't a decision made as a house rule - "let's make them a special exception to the rules for unstated reasons!" - rather, it was simply a weakness in the code.

    Ditto the possibility of getting more than 100% resistance to fire, and then being healed. We know that "percent" means a fraction, out of one hundred. But the code just saw integers, and integers don't stop at 100. So, because of the weakness of the code you can violate basic logic and get "101%" resistance.

    Second, once BG2/TOB came around, Bioware had turned into a really bad DM. Let's throw magic and money at the PC til they barf! Let's add win-button items that eliminate all tactical challenge from encounters! Let's give the player >100% damage resistance so they get healed from being stabbed! Let's have +6 magic items!

    And in this land of cheese-eating munchkins, the dual-class GM exploit has always been the ripest, stinkiest, bleu-est form of cheese. The code allowed it, the stupid level-up screens wouldn't let you advance if you had extra points, and the DM never put the effort into fixing it because the DM was terrible.

    Yeah, I'm gonna release that mod. :)

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    @subtledoctor nice points. I'm a bit fuzzy on what the exact rules are for grandmastery but don't they also suggest that it's only possible to go above specialisation in one weapon?

    As an ipad player mods are a bit tricky for me so hopefully this is officially fixed in the future.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    The rule is just that, if you are a fighter, you can reach GM in a weapon. If you are a thief, you're limited to proficiency. (Actually 'expertise' according to some rules, but whatever.)

    So say you start as a fight, reach 4 pips in long sword, then dual to thief. You don't lose those pips, but because your current class is thief, you can't put any more pips into longsword and you can't go higher than basic proficiency in any new weapons.

    BG doesn't discriminate between active class and old class. It lets you reach the highest limit of any of your classes, even if you are no longer an active advancing member of that class.

    Adding insult to injury, if you have a pop to spend but no where to spend it, the game used to get stuck on the level-up screen, preventing you from playing. So even if an enterprising modder fixed the illegality, players would be prone to getting stuck. Essentially, not only did Bioware use terrible house rules, they also stopped us from applying better house rules...!

    Btw, can anyone confirm that the EEs have fixed the whole "can't proceed if you have too many pips to spend" thing?

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    @subtledoctor so according to the rules it's possible to be a grandmaster in multiple weapons?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    edited August 2015
    Oh yeah, I wasn't even considering that. No, I think that's illegal too. :P

    I don't think that one is fixable with a mod, though...

    EDIT - actually I suppose it could be fixable, my mod already does that for Kensai. They choose a weapon to focus on at 1st level, and they can reach GM with that weapon *only*. It would be a big PITA to apply that to all warriors, though...

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    Oh yeah, I wasn't even considering that. No, I think that's illegal too. :P

    I don't think that one is fixable with a mod, though...

    EDIT - actually I suppose it could be fixable, my mod already does that for Kensai. They choose a weapon to focus on at 1st level, and they can reach GM with that weapon *only*. It would be a big PITA to apply that to all warriors, though...

    My point is that there are plenty of deviations from the rules and while I'd support a series of "balance patches" that sort to create a more interesting, accurate and balanced official game I don't think it's appropriate to lynch anyone who chooses to take the game more or less as it is (as @Roller12 seemed to want to do).

    FinneousPJ
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,990
    Roller12 said:

    And if anything or anyone can invest in fighter only proficiencies after the fighter class becomes locked then its a bug and will be fixed and is an exploit

    This was blocked in the original BG1 and IWD but it has been changed in the EE's (and its an intended change).

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    Intended, but wrong :tongue: (j/k)

    Hey @elminster can you confirm what I asked above: If I fill up all possible proficiency slots and then level up and get another point to spend but nowhere to place it, will the EEs let me click through that screen and keep playing? Or is that still a game-stopper?

    (I think the classic example was the Beastmaster->Cleric dual class, which has/had so many weapon restrictions that you can run out of places to spend pips?)

    If the EEs have fixed that, then like I say, I'll make a mod to end this grievous (WAI or not :wink: ) exploit.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,990
    To the best of my knowledge it doesn't stop you.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    elminster said:

    Roller12 said:

    And if anything or anyone can invest in fighter only proficiencies after the fighter class becomes locked then its a bug and will be fixed and is an exploit

    This was blocked in the original BG1 and IWD but it has been changed in the EE's (and its an intended change).
    Love it.

    Though I'd still support balance patches.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    elminster said:

    This was blocked in the original BG1 and IWD but it has been changed in the EE's (and its an intended change).

    I have to challenge/clarify a bit, here. If the EEs actually made this change, I would very much demand an explanation for such an arbitrary deviation from the rules.

    I believe what actually happened is, BG1 and IWD blocked it, then BG2 enabled it for what reasons I don't know. Either it's a quirk of the engine that Bioware was unable to fix, or the people at Bioware consciously decided to deviate from the rules, for the sole purpose of allowing horrible dual-class cheese. In either case, the "intended change" was Bioware's in 2001, not Beamdog’s in 2013.

    The EEs converted BG and IWD (which applied the rule correctly) to the BG2 engine (which applied the rule incorrectly). The "choice" made by Beamdog was simply to not change the BG2 engine in this regard. I doubt anyone even realized or discussed the issue before it was too late to do anything about it. And I suspect it's just an engine quirk and would be very difficult to fix. Which is why it falls to people like me to create a mod to make the game the way it ought to be. :)

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    make the game the way it ought to be. :)

    Mhmm

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    edited September 2015
    Sorry - should have said, "the way it ought to have been all along." :wink:

    Now, if only a mod could force the game to unpause in the inventory screen...

    ---

    Also, just for the record, I would like to commend elminster for not rising to take the bait after my post above, which was very aggressively worded with the intention of leading to some kind of official confirmation or denial of what I wrote. :grin:

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469

    If there's interest, I might be able to isolate the dual-class rule-breaking specialization bug fix as a standalone 'hardcore' mod... LMK

    Okay - did it.

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/43824/mod-announcement-hardcore-dual#latest

    FinneousPJJuliusBorisov
Sign In or Register to comment.