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Mazzy > Sarevok?

By level 21, she's got ***** in a melee weapon (I suggest halberds). There's no shortage of STR enhancing items in this game (especially if you don't plan on constructing Crom Faeyr), and has amazing saving throws.

lolienMontresor_SPJuliusBorisov
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Comments

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    I like her. :) Good at short range, good at long range. Sarevok is great too, with his deathblow and high strength.

    lolienJuliusBorisov
  • SmilingSwordSmilingSword Member Posts: 827
    edited January 2016
    Sarevok has deathbringer assault, that's 3% chance of 200 Piercing Damage; 10% Chance of Stun (save vs. spells at -4). I would argue that deathbringer assault alone makes Sarevok a better fighter than Mazzy. Mazzy is good and all, but her bonus skills really don't compare.

    Dexter
  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    edited January 2016
    You're trading +2 constitution, 3% chance of 200 dmg and some pips in weapon style in exchange for 1 dexterity and +4 to some saving throws. It's close, but i would still give the edge to S-God. Plus, he looks *slightly* cooler holding a 10 foot halberd than a m̶i̶d̶g̶e̶t̶ little person would.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,155
    By the time I pick up Sarevok most of my fighters basically just have the job of distracting enemies before my mages can cast Time Stop (at the end of which no enemy is left standing) or some other super powerful spell.

    So I'm not sure this one really makes much of a difference. I think I'd side with Mazzy here purely because I get more say in what weapon she takes as far as proficiency points go.

    Montresor_SPReticent
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 2,164
    I'd take Mazzy in a good party and Sarevok in an evil party.

    By the time you find Sarevok, Mazzy has 2-3 more levels than him, at the very least comparable STR with a girdle of giant strength, and a few useful paladin-like abilities. On the other hand, Sarevok has the deathbringer assault and a part in the storyline, and a natural high strength so you can pass that girdle on to someone else if you need to.

    JuliusBorisov
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited January 2016
    If they end up competing for the same slot then gameplay-wise Sarevok would win for most parties.
    Mazzy is the better archer, you can be sure about that. She simply starts with more pips in ranged weapons and it would take too long to turn Sarevok into an archer, for limited returns. If you want a tank then it doesn't matter who you pick really.

    However, Sarevok has two things going for him. First is Deathbringer Assault and the other is the fact that you can dual-class him into a Thief or a Mage. If you skipped Watcher's Keep in SoA, bought and kept any non-essential scrolls for all your mages and if you didn't go on a spell memorization spree before he joins you, then you should be able to jumpstart his leveling and ultimately get back his fighter abilities around the second half of ToB. Earlier if you play with a smaller party for a while.

    Post edited by Nuin on
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,173
    Sarevok in combat is just spamming Greater Whirlwind to multiply your chances of proccing Deathbringer Assault. No reason to use any other HLA with him.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member Posts: 14,435
    I like Mazzy, but when you get Sarevok in ToB, the gameplay is more oriented around damage than saving throws. That Deathbringer Assault adds about 10 damage on average per hit, and though most of it will be wasted, it gives him an edge. His proficiencies also open up better options for ToB.

    If you could get Sarevok in SoA, I'd say say Mazzy would be the superior choice.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    @semiticgod It only adds 6 damage per hit on average if the enemy has no resistance to piercing damage.

    Reticent
  • ReticentReticent Member Posts: 116
    Yeah, I think it really is pretty much a toss up between them.

    I could see Mazzy's greater flexibility with proficiency allocation as others have indicated, and her modest advantage in whole party resilience, maybe making her fit a broader range of concepts though.

    On the whole, I'm not sure there is a huge difference between any of the warrior archetype NPCs by the time ToB rolls around. Maybe put an asterisk next to Keldorn though because of his usefulness against spellcasters.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,644
    Sarewok is too tempting. Whith his stats that seem rolled by a PWgamer, 18.00 STR, 18 Con, INT and DEX that are perfect to dual him. And on top that Deathbringer Assault, something really OP in comparison to what other illegal NPCs get. I will feel less guilty in giving Mazzi 17 INT in SoA and dual her to a mage then to take him in ToB......
    And her dual at lev 13 would be easier then his dual, faster and whith a lot of time to enjoy the completed dual, while he will be nerfed half of the time.
    I tried Sarewok a few times and I was never satisfied, for 3 reasons.
    1-usually when I reach ToB my parties have a level of power and optimization so hight that he has very few to add, is underpowered and have to be babysitted.
    2-I find the Deathbringer Assault far less usefull that how is supposed to be, as every powerfull effect whith a little chance to trigger. Often when it trigger the enemy is a weak one, or is already badly iniuried so it make a little difference but when is needed, at the beginning of a tought fight, seems to never trigger. Maybe is just my bad luck.
    3-he doesn't meet the minimum requirements of the 1rst and 2nd principles of my PWGaming doctrine.

    Gotural
  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    How exactly do you dual a halfling?

    gorgonzolaMontresor_SPKlorox
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,644
    I think that there is a mod or maybe is possible to do something whith EEKeeper.
    Anyway you are right, it can't be done.

    But my point was mainly "i will feel less guilty", a way to express my impression that he is more a PWgamer dream then an ordinary NPC.
    ALL the other NPCs have some point of force and some weakness, some good stats and some not so good, he don't have 3 WIS and CHAR only because he has "unrollable" stats.......
    Now you get my point?

  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Not really, you seem to be contradicting yourself. In your first post you say that by the time you reach ToB, all your toons are extremely powerful because of how you built them and Sarevok comes across as weak in comparison, now you say that he is a Power Gamer's dream. His stats are very much rollable, in fact my main, even in BG1 without tomes, has better stats than him, except strength score.

    Also, i generally only play the strongest NPC's (Korgan, Edwin, Keldorn etc) and when i get Sarevok in ToB, even if though he's got less experience, he is still a major force to be reckoned with. Are you using Silver Blade on him before you upgrade Gram or Ravager? Silver Blade makes a lot of encounters trivial, it's special even bypasses mage spell protections IIRC.

    tl;dr Sarevok is insane and definitely worth recruiting. I wouldn't dual him though, it would be a waste of his potential.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,644
    I started my first post sayng that he is too tempting, and talking of his good stats and his special assault.
    he is powerfull and worth recruiting, if compared to mazzi and keldorn or even korgan that is considered by many the stronghest fighter of SoA. No other NPC has stats comparable to his stats, I don't know about your main stats, but he has just 1 point less in DEX than the perfect stats for a fighter able to dual both to mage or thief. He seems more something rolled by a player then an npc.

    Then I say that I was not satisfied whith him, and that seems to be contradicting. But in my PWgaming way I am also not satisfied of mazzi, keldorn or korgan, sometimes in TOB I have Minsk or Jaheera, just because they was the companions of my first runs, and I have to babysit them a lot. Noone of this NPC's has the power that I need, they have few ways to defend themselves and few APR. I usually make myself my fighters in a multiplayer and import the save in single player. 2 of them are enough. And at top level they are, or can become, untochable both in mlee and by magic and have 20APR each. Then I add a couple of NPCs, not fighter type, that i feel really OP and my party is ready to go. I don't aim at the 160APR a party can legally have, but I want POWER! :smiley:
    This is my way and only in this way I can feel mr ToB underpowered, compared to the NPC fighters he is OP.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    I have nothing against Mazzy but I choose Serevok almost every time I play. In comparison, I use Mazzy every once in a while. Maybe because of your past connection or maybe because he is a powerful character or because he is just cool. I can see using him regardless of your alignment because you have good RP reasons outside of alignment. I hook him up with my best two handed sword and a solid crossbow, then I start immediately building his halberd skills for ravager.

  • sluckerssluckers Member Posts: 280
    edited January 2016
    I just use them both, along with Korgan, Imoen, Viconia and some kind of fighter Charname. I call it the Angels and Demons Buzzsaw. Steroid Viconia to the max using priest spells and party enhancements, then have Imoen on Tesner's transformation and alteration spells to open your fights with a backstab and let the chopping begin. Use breach, spell thrust and ruby ray as needed.

    Have fun creating your own bloody fireworks show, especially in throne of bhaal when fighters really toughen up against magic.

    gorgonzola
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,409
    Really, I think I can agree Mazzy is more durable. I can remember Sarevok getting stunned from the symbols or croaking to finger of deaths/instant kills while yelling 'No! I..refuse!' All too much. Far more than Mazzy did.
    Aside from amazing saving throws, Mazzy can heal, haste, remove fear and cast special str on herself.

    Really only thing Sarevok has is Deathbringer assault. And frankly I only had it seen on an enemy that was going to die from that hit or the next anyway. Or was stoneskinned.

    semiticgod
  • vishvish Member Posts: 49
    edited January 2016

    How exactly do you dual a halfling?

    Kits+EEKeeper. Some frown upon it, but if you're playing with SCS installed and whatnot then you're going to have to bend the rules a little IMO. SCS bends the rules and makes the game significantly harder, so it's a minor buff to your party to be able to dual+put more weapon proficiencys with NPCs that can't or are only allowed 1-2 "*" in said proficiency. Dual Sarevok to a Thief once he gets UAI+GWW and you have Carsomyr +6 with a Fighter's THAC0, Deathbringer Assault, and maximum damage+APR. You'll have to 2 man a little less than half of ToB, but it's worth it. I think we all know the trick when you dual him to a Mage, and he'll get his fighting skills back much sooner.

    Sarevok brings the dual class potential and raw power of a PC. He's the only NPC on par with your PC in terms of raw power. He can be a Mage or Thief, and both are powerful. Mazzy only has better Saving Throws, which aren't to be scoffed at but Sarevok is simply better for the power gamer. She's certainly well worth a spot in any good playthrough, or if you just want to use her. She can replace every fighter not named Sarevok or PC

    gorgonzolaSmilingSword
  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Might as well turn Sarevok into a gnome so he gets bonus saves, if we're gonna "bend the rules a little". The purpose of SCS is to provide a big challenge to the player, if you start giving yourself unfair advantages through other tweaks, it kinda defeats the purpose.

    And yeah, i don't recommend dual Sarevok, ever. You spend over half of ToB with a useless toon and when he gets his original levels back, u will have little to no fighter HLA's. And if you dual him to thief, you can't even backstab with two handed swords, u need to a whole new proficiency. There is also 0 advantage for UAI just to use Carsomyr, since Gram or Ravager are better weapons at that stage.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited January 2016
    If you're a powergamer, getting back those levels is easy with Watcher's Keep/spell scribing. And "useless toon" is an exaggeration. There's a grand total of zero good warrior-type thieves in the game, and an extra mage is always welcome, especially if they start at around level 10 or so from all the scribing XP. I seem to remember that my own Sarevok started at level 13 or so, because of my PC+Edwin. I didn't even bother swapping Edwin out for Nalia, Aerie, Imoen, Jan, Neera etc.

    Don't forget that you can also get grand mastery with a dual-class fighter/thief as long as you save those proficiency points. If you really want him to him to get grand mastery with a thief weapon, you can level squat (leave him as a level 3 thief) and just cart him around in Watcher's Keep and the first half of ToB until he reaches 1.8M XP total. If you really want him to get his levels back by early ToB, you can either camp somewhere and force-spawn ambushes or you can "solo" most of Watcher's Keep while letting him stay stealthed. If you maximize XP, he should get back his fighter levels by the time you reach Demo.
    I personally prefer just carting him along for the first half of ToB. It just makes sense for me, especially since he usually gets back his warrior abilities around the time he changes alignment.

    SmilingSword
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,644
    edited January 2016
    I think that everyone has to find his balance between what make the game more difficoult and what make it easy, and is also a matter of flavour. We can roughly say that a game whith a lot of difficoulty enhancers and a high level and high optimized party has the same difficoulty of a less difficoult enviroment whith a less powerfull party, but the 2 games will have a different flavour, I am semplificating but I think is easy to get my point.
    And bending the rules is not the only way to make BG2 easier, there are ways that respect the rules, like playng on insane but sliding down when levelling up so having the cartoons whith a relevant HP boost.

    There are mods that bend the rules, making things easier, more difficoult, more balanced or only different and most of the players doesn't feel guilty about modding their game. and there are ways outside the mods, like using EEkeeper. Or the simple self allowing or forbbidding the use of some tactics or items.

    Unless a player choose to play BG2 "as it is", no mods, no tweaks, no cheese, no everything else there is nothing wrong in bending the rules to make the game more enjoyable to our personal taste.
    As long as the player is aware of the effects of the changes he make.
    There are tons of legal things that trivialize the game more than having mazzi dual or multi, even if in vanilla she doesn't have the stats or race to do it.

    semiticgod
  • vishvish Member Posts: 49

    Might as well turn Sarevok into a gnome so he gets bonus saves, if we're gonna "bend the rules a little". The purpose of SCS is to provide a big challenge to the player, if you start giving yourself unfair advantages through other tweaks, it kinda defeats the purpose.

    And yeah, i don't recommend dual Sarevok, ever. You spend over half of ToB with a useless toon and when he gets his original levels back, u will have little to no fighter HLA's. And if you dual him to thief, you can't even backstab with two handed swords, u need to a whole new proficiency. There is also 0 advantage for UAI just to use Carsomyr, since Gram or Ravager are better weapons at that stage.

    No to everything? You'll forgive me if I think an extra +3 damage, and extra options for NPCs doesn't hollow out every addition and doesn't trivialize a mod like SCS. Hint: It doesn't. You can make a multiplayer game if you wish to get the dual classes and/or more powerful/custom party and that's not bending any rules even by your understanding of them. It doesn't the defeat purpose, not one bit. He simply asked how one would make a dual classed Halfling, and I told him how and why.

    You'll get Fighter HLAs. You won't get but 2, WW and GWW, but let's be honest those are the only ones you want. ToB is short and linear. If you 2 man exp grind and spellbook erase cheese with a Mage as your PC he'll have his fighting skills back shortly after Chapter 8+WK believe it or not. I see nothing wrong with the spellbook cheese because it's a mechanic hardcoded into the game, maybe not hardcoded but it's there.

    There's 0 advantages of Carsomyr in the hands of a Fighter, Sarevok, with UAI rather than a Paladin, likely Keldorn? Keldorn, who hogs up items like Gauntlets of Dexterity? As opposed to Sarevok who doesn't need Dexterity/Strength/Constitution enhancing items? Let's not forget Keldorn's incapable at getting along with Viconia, the best Cleric in the game, and since we don't like "bending the rules" we shouldn't be using "ease of use" mods because that's not how the game is supposed to be played. The real advantage is removing Keldorn from your party. He's a gear hog, a hypocrite, and he doesn't play nice, which leaves you an open spot for someone more useful. There's plenty advantages you're just looking at things from a 1v1 perspective. Lest we forget there is a thing called Black Pits where you can fight hordes of enemies with your BG parties, so it's not only relevant towards the story/coregame alone.

    Who actually backstabs in BG anyways? Might be fun, but I could never be bothered with it in an SCS playthrough. Anything I want to backstab I can't due to instant spell protections or they're immune. "Oh yay I backstabbed "Beggar"," yea sorry not for me. You'll pick up backstabbing capable weapon proficiency's as a Thief... you'll be able to backstab if you've a hankering for unsatisfying chunks on trash enemies.


    SCS bends the rules a lot. Extremely minor buffs, allowing multi-classes to specialize in weapons/non-humans can dual class, do not alter it's difficulty in any way. They simply give you the party/experience you want without having to choose NPC x over NPC y, mostly. I prefer not to do this since my desired party is already in the game as is.

  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Wow that's a long and scattered rant. Ok, i get it, you love dual classing Sarevok. First of all, SCS barely bends the rules, it even states in it's description, it tries to play fair as much as possible, using what the vanilla enemies have to their full potential. You might be confusing it with Tactics.

    Then, you go into this random segway about how Keldorn is an item hog, and Carsomyr is much better used on Sarevok, as if i ever stated that i use Keldorn in ToB or that Carsomyr is a mandatory weapon to use. I do neither of those things (i do use Kel + Cars in SoA though).

    Basic WW HLA is bad, so you're left with just one useful fighter HLA. If you don't care about backstab, then what's the point in dualing to a thief? Just spike traps? You're better off getting Jan as a thief for that. And dual to mage, yeah sure, protections are nice to have. But you know what else is nice? Having a bunch of Hardiness/GWWs/Critical Strikes to use in the Melissan battle. Also, you can protect him just fine even if he's a pure fighter. Chaotic Commands/Death Ward and he's good to go.

    Really, try him as a pure fighter, he might surprise you.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,644
    Chaotic Commands/Death Ward are an awesome protection. That every cleric can give to every toon.
    PFMW, Mirror Images, SI, Spell shield, Stoneskin and last but not least Simulacrum for a potential 20APR (and you have only 1 helm and shurely someone other that can use it) are what make a high level multi or dual F/M something very very special........
    And no other cleric or mage can give those to a toon, he has them or he miss them, a lot.

  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    I always play F/M with my main, so he can tank whatever needs tanking, while Korgan/Sarevok deal the damage. So in my games, dualing Sarevok would be semi-redundant. He is a DPS machine, no need to turn him into a hybrid at such a late stage.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited January 2016
    There's a grand total of -at least- 7 other characters who can get fighter HLAs in the game, and most of those are dedicated warrior-types. Do you honestly think we don't know how a pure warrior plays like?
    OTOH, if you're not actually playing a fighter/mage then the closest you're going to get to that is Haer' Dalis, and Haer is really a lot better off spamming MMM + Offensive Spin + images with songs instead of trying to melee in late game.
    Combined with the lack of a good warrior-type thief (scouting, illusion removal, stealing, detect traps/open locks for even more XP, traps, able to reach 5+ APR, UAI) there's plenty of good reasons why someone would want to dual Sarevok.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,644
    And I will never dual a character at that high level, also because I never allow myself the erase/memorize strategy to gain XP, for me the only legit extra XP is the one from fights where a real risk is involved (but I don't see nothing wrong if others do it).
    But if you read what @elminster wrote you see how party composition and player style affect the Mazzi or Sarewok choice or dual or keep single class him.
    What you say, what I say, what @vish say and what everyone else say is true according to his personal premises but can be wrong according to the ones of others.

    My tipical ToB party of 4 or 5 toons can have whith a little prebuffing and summoning 60-80 APR whith the boost of 1 o 2 HLA bard songs, so I really don't need a DPS machine, that for some other party can be a Godsend. And this in the legal not cheese at all, no mislead clones singing version. In the full cheese has a potential of several K HP x round, phisical damage only, plus tons of magic one. Full cheese, but tested and worcking.

    You and I have no interest in dualling S. , for our good reasons, vish and @Nuin have, for their good reasons, and elminster don't care about it, as most of his fighters just have the job of distracting enemies before his mages do the real thing, and he has his good reasons.

    I wish only that everyone is frendly and polite toward everyone else, calling a long and scattered rant someone else reasoning doesn't seem so polite to me.
    But my knowledge in english language has huge limits so I may be wrong, and in that case I apologize.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member Posts: 14,435
    Sarevok needs 1.76 million XP to recover his fighter levels if he duals to thief. He needs 3 million XP to recover his fighter levels if he duals to mage.

    If Sarevok dual-classes, Sarevok will be vastly weaker than any other character for half of ToB. For the other half, he will be slightly stronger.

    I don't think it's worth it unless you're in Nightmare mode, where the XP bonuses are so much larger, or maybe Ascension, where the last battle is a major jump in difficulty compared to the other encounters.

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