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LoveViconia
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CHARNAME Bard
Imoen - same reasons as above and needed a thief
Viconia - Hot and Useful
Neera - Not sure why but i like her , i also just dont like Edwin or Dynaheir
Dorn - I needed muscle and woot! Free Elven Chain
Yeslick - Needed someone to offset the evil and keep the Party Neutral, also found him to be useful
I guess examples of what I have done for the latter would be...
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44273/completed-saga-runs
Durak: Dwarven Defender Charname (duty, honor, great desire to prove himself as a dwarf)
- Korgan (one of the greatest dwarven warriors of the age, so someone that Durak wanted to be accepted by)
- Anomen (a priest of Helm, thus a man of duty and honor)
- Valgyar (quiet, taciturn, a man of action and an oath keeper)
- Mazzy (an honorable halfling warrior, who is a romantic interest of Korgan and a great friend of Valgyar)
- Imoen (his sister who he feels obligated to protect)
Kadrin: Dwarven fighter/thief (like Durak, only more 'fun.' Also a warrior-engineer who specializes in traps)
- Korgan (see above)
- Anomen( see above)
- Mazzy (see above)
- Imoen (see above)
- Jan (Kadrin found him funny and greatly respected him as a fellow inventor)
Lother: Human Shadowdancer/Fighter (neutral evil, fully embraced being a bhaalspawn, not stupid evil)
- Korgan (a useful meat shield)
- Dorn (a useful meat shield/mage killer)
- Hexaat (a vampire whose coffin he holds on his person and who is useful to have around)
- Edwin (the strongest mage he has ever encountered)
- Viconia (a healer and his romantic interest)
Brynhild: Inquisitor
- Anomen (love interest and cleric of helm)
- Imoen (kid sister)
- Keldorn (older, wiser mentor and another paladin)
- Raasad (a monk whose beliefs she respected and who had a quest she believed in)
- Sarevok (she tried to redeem him...didn't work)
Weilan: Monk
- Raasad (wanted him to be a love interested, romance never started...)
- Minsc (an old friend who shared her quest)
- Jaheira (see minsc)
- Aerie (Minsc's new witch)
- Imoen (sister)
Aethandir: Elf Fighter/Mage
- Neera (old friend and romantic interest)
- Raasad (an old friend from Baldur's Gate)
- Anomen (found the braggart amusing...and useful)
- Keldorn (respected the man and found him comforting to have as a moral compass)
- Imoen (sister)
Those are all of my completed saga runs with the reasons for choosing that party.
Now, when I got a new phone I lost my in progress games. They were...
Berserker->Druid (in SoA underdark)
- Jaheira (romantic interest and the woman who taught him how to be a druid/how to control his anger)
- Minsc (old friend and ranger)
- Valgyar (ranger)
- Imoen (sister)
- Haer'Dalis (he grew up in Candlekeep. While never much of a reader, he loved stories, which the bard was always able to provide)
Swashbuckler->Fighter (in Throne of Bhaal
- Minsc (a happy-go-lucky Charname liked having him around)
- Neera (romantic interest)
- Haer'Dalis (see Minsc)
- Imoen (sister)
- Jaheira (old friend who shared his quest, couldn't leave her behind)
Durak (#2)
- Nobody
(Solo no-reload RP run through BG1. Picked up Yeslick briefly for RP reasons)
(Died in BG2. Had a few people in his party simply because they shared his quest. Took a party because I didn't want him to die...and a vampire killed him. Knew it was risky, but it was a RP run and he wouldn't let an innocent be hurt/run from a fight)
Currently doing a new playthrough. Still in BG1
Elven Archer
- Jaheira (Gorion said they could be trusted)
- Khalid (see Jaheira)
- Xan (found him in the mines, excited to have another elf around)
- Kivan (found him in the forests, excited to have another elf around)
- Neera (currently have her, once I finish her quest will drop her and will pick up Coran)
Main theme for the archer is that this is an elf who is...unsure of himself and what it means to be an elf. Is desperate to be around other elves, in the hope that it will help him figure out who he is.
Most mechanically effective?
CHARNAME Fighter/Mage/Thief - The best Fighter is the fighter who has Stoneskins, Mirror Images, their own Crowd Control, Mislead Backstabs, and all the thief skills you could need. * 2HS, ** Staves ** Bastard Swords * TWF BG1, * TWF * Halberds SoA, * Halberds early ToB. Gives you the best tanking weapon (Foebane +5), best backstabber (Staff of Striking/The Ram), and best mookslayer (Ravager +6), and with only a -2 non-proficiency penalty, there's no problem with picking up the Daystar or Carsomyr for an occasional fling.
Aerie - The best NPC magic user, hands down. No need for subtlety, just lay waste with her arsenal of buffs and nukes before wading into melee and being amazing at that too.
Spoiler contains level comparison and spell considerations for the optimisers among us.
F/T 13/16 at the SoA <3e6 cap gets 7 THAC0 with Specialisation, 5/7/6/5/8 saves and 2.5 APR, with +2 damage from specialisation and an x5 Backstab, with 415 skill points - enough to max out Open Locks, Find Traps, Detect Illusions and Set Snares, aka "the ones that actually matter".
F/M/T 12/12/14 at the <3e6 cap gets 9 THAC0 with Specialisation, 7/7/8/8/8 saves, and 2 APR, with +2 damage from Specialisation, an x5 Backstab, with 365 skill points. Since you can cast "Knock", still enough to max out Find Traps, Detect Illusions and Set Snares. And 4/4/4/4/4/1 spells per day.
4.5e6 Exp:
Fighter 26 gets 8 HLAs, -3 THAC0, 3/5/4/4/6 saves, 3 APR and +5 damage from GM - That's about it. The Fighter peaked awhile back and never got much better.
F/T 17/19 gets 7 HLAs, 3 THAC0, 3/5/4/4/6 saves, 2.5 APR and +2 damage from specialisation. Thanks to UAI they can also use wands, like F/M/Ts have been able to do from level 1, to pull off fireballs, cloudkills, high penalty stuns and 18D6 lightning damages.
F/M/T 14/14/16 gets 6 HLAs, 6 THAC0, 5/7/6/5/8 saves, 2.5 APR and +2 damage from specialisation. And up to 5/5/5/4/4/2/1 spells.
6e6 Exp:
Fighter 32 has 14 HLAs, and has otherwise not changed a bit.
F/T 20/23 has 14 HLAs, 0 THAC0 and 3/4/4/4/6 saves,
F/M/T 16/15/19 has 12 HLAs, 4 THAC0 and 4/6/5/4/7 saves. Also 5/5/5/5/5/2/1 spells.
So in exchange for spells the F/M/T is 3-4 THAC0 and a few HLAs behind the F/T at any particular point, and at its widest gap, 10 THAC0 behind pure fighters... and is superior at any given level, because it's a mage.
For simplicity's sake, I'll pick just one, single, type of spell per level, and not use the full range of awesome.
Level 1 spells - Magic Missile. Mage casting a spell? Mage interrupted and takes 10-25 damage with no save. Fighting a tough enemy? Enemy takes 10-25 damage with no save, plus whatever other damage your F/M/T deals by attacking that round.
Level 2 spells - Mirror Image. At level 12 mage, that's six images per cast, and each image ignores one source of damage if struck. Horrid Wilting? Images/Images+1 chance of dealing zero damage. Dragon breath? I/I+1 chance of hitting an image. Sarevok hitting for 200 damage? I/I+1 chance of just killing an
image. Backstab for 250 damage? I/I+1 chance of just killing an image, not a fighter. Mirror Image makes the F/M/T a better tank than any "pure" fighter could ever be.
Level 3 spells - Since Aerie can provide the haste, let's go with Ghost Armour, for Full Plate Armour that doesn't interfere with spellcasting or thief skills that lasts an hour per shot, because we're being tanks, not using layered Skull Traps with Snares to create devastating ambushes.
Level 4 spells - I could go with Improved Invisibility for Breach and Lower Resist immunity, or Stoneskins, for another six layers of immortality to become the ubermensch of tanking, or Fireshields, for MR bypassing elemental damage against anything that wastes its time attacking your mirror images... but let's go with Polymorph Self. Mustard Jellies are immune to magic, piercing, and electrical damage, and can solo pretty much any mage, pit fiends, beholders and various other creatures that non-consensually penetrate fighters. Spider form gives the perfect mook killer at 4 APR + poison that can crawl through Aerie's web spells to murder everything. Wolves are immune to cold damage, Flinds give Troll Killing Fire Damage, if you care, since Mustard Jellies are immune to Troll attacks too and can use Wands of Fire.
Level 5 spells - I could pick Breach (since fighter types have no chance of piercing PfMW), but there's a wand for that too, so instead let's go with Spell Immunity:
Abjuration: Immune to dispel, imprisonment, and maze. Not many non-berserkers that can tank Kangaxx.
Conjuration: Immune to Power Word Stun, the trolliest power word.
Divination: Immune to True Sight dispelling your invisibility spells.
Level 6 spells - Mislead is the self-buff for F/M/Ts. Mislead is an unbreaking invisibility, meaning every attack by the F/M/T is an x5 backstab. That's the HLA "Assassination", except the F/M/T is untargetable, gets +4 to hit, it lasts for 1 round per level, instead of just 1 round, and you can get it multiple times per day.
Level 7 spells - Limited Wish: Two nice options, one a cure 20 HP and various status effects spell, the other restoring one spell of each level 1-4 for both Aerie and the F/M/T, giving the F/M/T more staying power.
Also of note is Spell Sequencer, giving the F/M/T things like an instant self-cast of Mirror Images/Stoneskins/Improved Invisiblity all at once, over and above their other spells per day.
Level 8 spells - Power Word Blind: Also known as the AOE, no save, instant cast, blind. 6,750,000 Exp for the first of these, by the way.
Let me be clear on this, Fighters are the mooks you plough through to get through to the man in charge, which is the Mage. So yes, the Fighter and Fighter/Thief can give 100% each fight, every fight. Meanwhile F/M/Ts might give 70% or so (and the closer to the ToB cap, the closer to 100% they get), but for any fight that actually matters they can give 500% without breaking a sweat thanks to the wide and wonderful array of spells that are basically as powerful as HLAs all by themselves.
Minsc is my all time favorite npc in both BGs. I haven't been able to play without him once yet.
Edwin is my second favorite. Holy cow, he is hilarious. I can play without him, though, in some of my good playthroughs.
I love Viconia. She is definitely the hottest of the love interests. Good Charnames always want to redeem her, bad Charnames always want her for her power, neutral pcs want to... Well, they all want the same thing in the end http://www.montypython.net/scripts/nudge.php.
Aerie is sweet, has a wonderful story. Her annoying whining takes some getting used to, almost like I have to prep myself. If it wasn't for the voice, I would like her better than Viconia.
I love bringing Korgan along when aerie is in the party. He is a great tank, too. His character has believable depth.
Yoshimo is a very interesting character. Totally surprised me the first time I played him.
I usually take Imoen if I take Yoshimo. Imoen is cool, but I don't have the same attachment to her that a lot of people on the forums have expressed. Sure, she's my sister... so that's why I get her back to the city, out of harms way. I have a hard time using her for her low strength, or wasting a strength belt on her.
Jan is useful and hilarious. Can't get enough of those turnips!
Valygar is incredibly useful, possibly the most useful front-liner if you use him right. I just wish his personality was more developed.
Mazzy is ok. I have a hard time getting past the hobbit wannabe paladin thing without actually having any paladin uses. Has a nice voice though.
Keldorn is ok; I don't like the way paladins are portrayed in his game, though. Other than that, great tank.
Anomen is useful and funny. I don't really find him that annoying as a player, but when role playing, my Charnames often find him annoying. Only one that wouldn't have found him annoying was a fighter-->cleric romancing Viconia. No use there. Has an incredibly interesting quest line, maybe the most interesting in my opinion. He gets a lot of flack for his stupid romance, but if you don't intend to romance him he is great. Haven't played him for a significant amount of time yet.
Haer'dalis haven't used yet aside from bringing him along for the quests. Just haven't been interested, bards are not really my thing. I will bring him along eventually.
Jaheira: I hate Druids. Have to shadow keeper her to ranger/cleric if I want to romance her, which is not really my favorite romance. Just have to grit my teeth and ignore her stupid nature-moron anti-civilization comments. Usually I dump her for someone else.
Cernd: I hate Druids. No romance, no Cernd.
Edit: added spoilers
Sarevok: by the time I get to tob, I already have my party established. Can't justify dumping one of them for the guy who tried to kill me and start a war. Sometimes attack him on sight. Especially my evil Charnames: "Hey! I killed you already! Don't give me that 'I'm not here to kill you' crap! Die, sucker...again!!"
Nalia is kind of an unknown to me. Haven't played her outside of her quest yet.
Neera is a little bit annoying as a personality, but it is wonderful to have a good aligned pure mage, even if she does blow up half the party occasionally. Haven't done her romance yet.
Rasaad is still unknown to me, although he seems interesting.
Dorm has only been attacked and killed by my good Charnames on sight for being a balckguard, the most vile of villians in the realms. Haven't played an evil playthrough since bg2ee came out. Haven't played a lot of bg2 in the last few years, actually.
Hexxat: Unknown, haven't played evil playthrough yet, see dorn. It's good to have an evil thief finally! Even if some people don't like her.
Storyline:
Charname: elf power-hungry sorcerer, pretty much like Irenicus except for two main differences: 1) he doesn't fail, never. 2) he doesn't side with drows for any reason, he persecutes them.
He frees Viconia, only to kill her by himself. In the Underdark he kills Adalon for daring turning him into a repulsive dark elf, then proceeds to exterminate the near city of Ust-Natha.
He obviously travels alone, other members would only slow him down on his way to glory.
Effective:
Solo Sorcerer. Which is hands down the apex of spellcasters and a class able to trash all the others, especially useless one-trick-pony like fighters.
Early on, class levels are closer together, and the difference between them is tiny.
Pure Fighter BG1 cap: Level 8.
Fighter/Thief: 7/7
Fighter/Mage/Thief: 6/6/7.
That's a 1/2 APR and 2 THAC0 off a full Fighter, and 1 THAC0 difference from the F/T in exchange for level 3 spells, and the F/M/T is just as good a thief. And yes, it's perfectly viable to solo a F/M/T through BG1, they're actually one of the better classes to do so. 20 Dex F/M/T and 190 skill points means you start with maxed Disarm Traps and, if you're dedicated on being solo before you pick up Aerie, you can spread 60 points into OL, 85 into FT, 55 into Set Snare to give you 80/90/70, which with your DUHM innate gives 80/100/80 at this point, letting you clear the majority of locks and all traps.
Early SoA: 6k Exp for freeing your goons, Let's say 1000 Exp for the trapped painting and 500 for the lock. 420 for a single Mephit plus 2000 for disabling the machine. 3500 for talking to the Genie, 650 for killing an ogre mage. Two lesser clay golems, 4000 Exp, and eminently doable with Mirror Images, since their AC is terrible and they only have 30 HP each, while you have a +1 Quarterstaff already.
And now you should have 60,000 per class, giving you level 7 mage and level 4 mage spells. You can now polymorph, or layer up stoneskins, and all those other benefits of being a level 7 mage. You can also kill the Jailkeep golem for another 5,000 with said staff, since it's just a clay golem, another 650 for the Otyugh, another 7000 for various traps.... And now you're a level 7 fighter, and have that extra 1/2 APR. Enough to set up some traps and snares for Illyich's group, then a Cambion for 6,000, some mephits for another 2000 or so, and now you're a 7/7/8 before the "pure" fighter has hit level 9.
And by the time they get out of Irenicus' Dungeon, all they need to do is to find the merchants that supply potions of master thievery. It's easy enough to find ten or more, which is enough to steal every scroll from Waukeen's Promenade and Potions of Genius for 100% scribe chance. You'll be level 8/9/10 before pure fighters hit level 10, and have a much easier time getting there to boot, with scrolls spare to teach Aerie to boot. And that's level 5 spells, for the record. So in the time it's taken a fighter to get +2 THAC0 and a proficiency pip, the F/M/T has gained the ability to become completely immune to a subset of reality.
That's the power of multiclassing. It's not until level 9 (when the Fighter hits 750k level 11), that levelling starts to slow down and multiclass characters actually fall behind, and by then it's already far, far too late. By the time Fighters start to progress beyond F/M/Ts, they're gaining benefits that the F/M/T already has plenty of - THAC0, APR, and proficiency pips, while the F/M/Ts have gained substantial benefits that most fighters don't get at all - damage immunities, magic immunities, status immunities, debuffs and crowd control.
Fact: There is enough experience to raise a CHARNAME with an entire party of six to the SoA cap within SoA.
Fact: The experience that a level 20 Fighter got to become level 20 is 3,000,000 Exp.
Fact: A Fighter/Mage/Thief with 3,000,000 Exp is level 12/12/14, and takes just as long to reach that point as the level 20 Fighter takes to reach level 20.
Fact: A Fighter/Mage/Thief with the same amount of experience as a fighter is better at tanking than that Fighter - Their AC is the same or better, because they can turn invisible for +4 AC/+4 to hit. Their survivability is better, because they can produce mirror images and stoneskins for damage reduction when their superior AC is bypassed, because Improved Invisibility + Mirror Images = Virtual immunity to AOE and single target spells, because they can become immune to magic... There is no end to the number of ways in which a Mage can make them more survivable than a Fighter.
Fact: There is a hard maximum on the benefit of THAC(). If your THAC0 + Specialisations + Strength + their debuffs requires a roll of -4, that is no better than requiring a roll of 2, because rolling a 1 is always a failure. Meanwhile the majority of dangerous high level enemies are also mages, who do not depend on AC for protections but instead have defensive buffs that cannot be bypassed by THAC0.
Fact: A Fighter/Mage/Thief can apply Tenser's Transformation and Improved Invisibility to apply a +6 to hit, and can use Breach to bypass defensive buffs of mages where a fighter could not. They can also use Fireshields to damage everyone hitting them while remaining perfectly safe from harm thanks to their above mentioned survival buffs. This combined with their traps and offensive spells makes them more, not less, likely to apply damage to their targets than a Fighter with the same amount of Exp.
Ergo: A Fighter/Mage/Thief with equal experience to a Fighter is an overall superior combatant.
Also Fact: CHARNAME/Aerie, as a duo, gains significantly more experience than a six man party. It is not only likely, but nigh impossible, that the pair will not have surpassed the SoA cap. Assuming they get only 33% more experience (as opposed to 200% more experience) and reach 4e6 experience, then the pure Fighter will be level 24. The only significant benefit from these levels, because they do not gain more APR after level 13. and do not gain more THAC0 after level 21, is that they gain one HLA per level.
Meanwhile, at 4e6 the F/M/T will be at levels 13/13/16. Now they have 2.5 APR versus the Fighter's 3 APR with Grand Mastery, their THAC0 is still only 8 behind, and can only get closer together because the Fighter has stopped improving and now they can use the Purifier +4 while they're waiting for the Foebane +5 to be finished, and they'll still have 5 APR with an offhanded Belm, meaning with their other three HLAs they can get effects like Time Traps to combine with their spells (which are generally as strong as or stronger than fighter HLAs at this point) to do things like Improved Haste - 10 APR + Mislead + Time Trap = Greater Weapon Whirlwind with Assassination with a far superior Improved Critical because not only does every one of those attacks hit automatically, the opponent can't even move or counter.
So let me break this down, strongest to weakest:
Fighter/Mage.
Fighter/Mage/Thief.
Kensai -> Mage.
Fighter/Mage/Cleric.
Monk - High level.
Ranger/Cleric - Pre-Nerf.
Berserker.
Fighter/Cleric.
Ranger/Cleric - Nerfed.
Fighter/Thief - With HLAs.
Fighter.
Fighter/Thief - Pre-HLAs.
Barbarian.
You might find some people that disagree on the particulars, and honestly a Mage/Thief makes a strong contender at later levels if you play them right, but there's the rough hierarchy of "How good are they at doing the job of 'fighter'". It really is no coincidence that the most powerful class combinations in the game all feature "Mage".
You also talk down to people while making outright wrong assertions. Such as Vicpnia being able to get Crom Fraeyer because ingredients are found in BG1 (wtf?) while Anomen can't get it (seriously, wtf?)
Not a single person here has agreed with any of your arguments, and yet you still insist on being insultingly condescending. You must be a troll. There is no other explanation.
It doesn't matter how much you guys will try to convince him with empty concepts like "maths" or "truth", this man is the God of stubbornness.
You're all crazy if you think you can fight a GOD.
Btw @Pantalion, I just don't see how is a F/M stronger than a F>M. But I fear this conversation would derail this awesome thread.
Anyway, "best at being a fighter" is the key thing here. A Fighter-> Mage is doubtless a better mage, but I would consider the F/M[/T] to be a better overall gish (particularly the gnome F/I),
I'll stress again, though, that being a better Fighter is far from being "stronger". If you're sitting around in melee, you've probably given up on "strength" in favour of a martial character concept, and level 9/10 spells are overkill for making an immortal warrior.
As it is, overall strength from an optimisation perspective gets very fuzzy but it's probably something including Sorcerer, Wild Mage, Cleric/Illusionist, Illusionist/Thief, and pretty much any max levelled mage of any specialisation or dual. Above a certain point comparative strength gets so theoretical it really, really doesn't matter to me either way.
As to the OP, "RP" parties with romance, versus "effective" parties, necessarily invites analysis of game mechanics, and therefore, math.
I can't help but wonder if we are "arguing" with a child here, and perhaps one who speaks English as a second language, given the "quality" of the writing.
No hostility towards anyone is meant by this post, only bemusement.
(I'm afraid that's my gut emotional reaction to most of your posts, friend.)
BTW,
Ich spreche ein bischen Deutsch, und,
Je parle aussi un petit peu de francais.
Guys...I'm pretty sure @LoveViconia is a troll. Just saying. Look at his number of posts and his logic.
Maybe I'm wrong.
"Things that make you go hummmmm...."