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Now we can't cancel the level up menu and return to the game without actually levelling up

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,194
edited March 2016 in The Road to v2.0
I've made a bug report - http://redmine.beamdog.com/issues/21127 - but have got an answer it is an intended change....

I don't agree with it. Please, change it, it's such an important feature for BG players.

If you play with random HPs, and I usually play with random HPs, you may not like the HP roll you get and would like to wait till the next level up. Pre-beta we could always click ESC and return to the game to wait till the next level up for a new HP roll. Now, it's impossible.

GodKaiserHellGreenWarlockRodrianSilverstarAdul

Comments

  • pointfiveopointfiveo Member Posts: 35
    edited March 2016
    Just another feature arbitrarily ruined by Beamdog. Nothing new here. Better get used to reloading your game. Enjoy 2.0. Toodaloo!

    IthualGodKaiserHellRodrianStoibs
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,763
    That's weird, I've been able to back out of level ups by pressing Escape. But I always play with max HP on, so does this make it so you have to reload from before you went ahead with the level up to re-roll your HP?

  • VakarianVakarian Member Posts: 94
    I've always just made a quicksave before leveling up anyway...easy enough to press "L" and get another shot at the roll

    pointfiveo
  • pointfiveopointfiveo Member Posts: 35
    Vakarian said:

    I've always just made a quicksave before leveling up anyway...easy enough to press "L" and get another shot at the roll

    Yes. It's easy enough to adjust having less than before. Let's all just adjust.

    GodKaiserHell
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,194
    I usually try not to reload in my games. And like what random brings. It was a big part of the fun for me to have an option to wait till the next level up if the HP roll is not good. Not being able to cancel the level up menu is a meaningful change for me. I'm sure other no-reload players (for example, @Gotural) feel the same.

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited March 2016
    One should remember that once you click Level Up, the HP roll is set in stone. If you escape the screen and go back later, you get the same value. The only way to reroll is reloading the game.

    EDIT: unless @Bengoshi is telling us that if you wait until hitting the next level, the game will end up rerolling the first HD along with the new one. Is that a thing? And isn't it an exploit? Might as well reload anyway.

    VakarianArdul
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,194
    edited March 2016
    Kilivitz said:

    One should remember that once you click Level Up, the HP roll is set in stone. If you escape the screen and go back later, you get the same value. The only way to reroll is reloading the game.

    Nope. As we tested in our MP run (1.3 version), we could get new HP rolls if waited for later level ups. Actually, I used this option quite often in my runs: get a bad HP roll? - wait till getting XP for another level - then get a new HP roll for the previous level and a new level.
    Kilivitz said:

    if you wait until hitting the next level, the game will end up rerolling the first HD along with the new one. Is that a thing?

    Yes, exactly. And I don't think it's an exploit.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
    Adul
  • pointfiveopointfiveo Member Posts: 35
    edited March 2016
    I also used esc when contemplating my proficiencies. If I had several characters level up with proficiency slots, I'd visualize my choices a few times before actually making the decision. This wonderful improvement takes that away.

    I like patches to actually maintain or improve functionality. Fawk me, right?

    GodKaiserHellRodrian
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I would count this squarely as a bug report.

    JuliusBorisovpointfiveoGreenWarlockGrammarsalad
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,194
    Dee said:

    I would count this squarely as a bug report.

    I've quoted your post as an update to the Anders Svensson's answer.

    Rodrian
  • BelegCuthalionBelegCuthalion Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 432
    Getting back out for verification I see some good use in. I thought it was a bug in 1.3 actually to allow this, as it was not possible before, but I made use of it sometimes.
    but looking at a roll, not like it and wait for the game to re-roll that roll later ... I mean, is definitely not power gaming, but still revising something the dice decided once - why wouldn't that be a bug if that's possible to do?

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    edited March 2016
    We have 2 issues in the thread here:
    * Backing out of a Level Up is no longer possible via Escape
    * Backing out of a Level Up (because it's not possible) disallows the "Feature" to withhold HP rolls till a later level up.

    Lets be clear which part of this is considered a bug...the inability to back out, the inability to withhold HP rolls till a later leveling up, or both.

    And if both, is it a bug that the withhold HP rolls isn't functional or a bug that it's there in the first place?

    *I* am unclear on the answers to all three of the above points.

    Regarding backing out of a level up: Keep in mind the technical difficulties involved in backing out of a level up: There's a potential there to lose Spell Selection, Proficiency Selection, Skill point Additions, etc. etc. This may be intentional functionality to avoid other issues or it may be an oversight / code issue. On the other hand it's a feature that's been available since before BG:EE was a thing so I personally agree with Dee on this that this should squarely be considered a bug. We'll have to figure out what the management decision is on all of this.

    As to the HP feature: I guess I PERSONALLY (not a Beamdog Opinion) disagree with you Bengoshi. In a table top game, I don't allow players to roll their HP at a given level and then turn around and say "Na, never mind, I'm not leveling up at this point." Even if they choose to do so, I wouldn't let them re-roll their HP at a later date. Obviously "save/load abuse" is not possible "in real life" so there's always been that method of getting a better HP roll.

    While I appreciate the "hybrid" this solution provides (there's a downside of having to play an entire level without leveling up which is balanced by a re-roll of HP), there's no rule or even house rule I've ever heard of in Tabletop that would account for that. While I don't disagree with the method and I certainly would not call it "power gamerish" to do this, I also don't think this was an intended feature of the game...more a side effect of being able to back out of the level up process.

    Again, that's just my personal opinion, I'm sure @Dee will be getting better clarification on all of this and if it's found to be a bug, we'll get it reported.

    Oh and @pointfiveo, you might consider the fact you may be jumping the gun a little on this one? I realize your low opinion of Beamdog and everything they've done with the games, but generally you typically want to wait till something is confirmed "wrong" before you spew "OMG THESE PEOPLE SUCK" all over a thread.

    You tend to have a better chance of people listening to you more that way. Just...a friendly piece of advice...

    GreenWarlockillathidJuliusBorisovGirewan
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I was referring to the Escape key myself. The rest of it is probably best categorized as an exploit, but fixing it seems like a can of worms better left unopened.

    GreenWarlockJuliusBorisovIchigoRXC
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    I agree that it is an exploit, but in keeping with a video game, rather than a PnP experience, and BG is a video game modeled after a PnP game - so I could easily swing both ways on this one.

    I could live without a cancel on the level-up if I could just consult the other pages during the level-up process. I suspect simply creating a cancel/undo function is actually simpler though, especially as we already had one (although who knows how many bugs are lurking in there already).

    My preference for hit points is an entirely different feature request. I would prefer to roll all hit-points at character creation, and store those rolls, hidden, in the character info. That way, it would not matter how many levels you skip, you are getting the same hit points. It would be good to then inform the PC, at character generation time, what their hit-point total would be if they took all those hit rolls, possibly just as a %age of the theoretical max (cannot second-guess dual-classing). I would love to play without max hp at each level, but don't want to commit to a character who is going to roll too many low dice. It also adds to the dilemma when rolling up front - what balance should I pick between stats and max hp?

    Similarly, I could just lock-in the max-hp option at character creation, and then switch up to Core rules, never looking back, for those games where I want the safety blanket.

    Definitely a much more complex feature than we are looking at here though ;)

    JuliusBorisov
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Oh man, and then tie it to ability rolls. Congratulations on that 98 roll, but how do you feel about all those 1s you're going to get from levels 5-7? That would be both amazing and terrible.

    JuliusBorisovDanathion
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    pretty much - but don't show which results are at which levels - you may have some amazing high rolls recovering from an awful levels 2-4, but should know no better (at creation) than if those low rolls are at the end of the level cycle, or spread throughout.

    I want to protected from save-scumming to 'fix' my bad rolls, by making that impossible ;)
    But I don't want to lose (too much of) the mystery of getting the big reveal of that hit die every level. Just a little insurance before I set out that I am not chasing a lost cause :)

  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    Try and pretend your bad dice rolls don't count in Vegas. :wink:

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,194
    I hope this discussion will change the intended behavior in this case.

    Anyway, I'm very pleased with the fact there can be an actual dialogue with the developers, as this small example shows: through "updates" on Redmine reports and through discussing them on the forum.

    IchigoRXCSilverstar
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    My take on it is that it is a bug. If it was possible before, it should be possible now.

    In fact, sometimes I have done exactly that (backing out of a level up) because I didn't know which spells I wanted to pick. Maybe I wanted to look at what my options were, or consult a character development guide I had created. Or perhaps I wanted to check which weapon proficiency I should pick next, in order to reach my goals.

    The point is, there are valid reasons for wanting to back out of a levelup. That it allows you to reroll HP is an unintended consequence. Sure, people can use it to cheat. My argument for that is that the console is easier. Or a character editor.

    In other words, backing out of a levelup has some legitimate uses, and some cheating uses. If somebody wants to use it to cheat, I'd advise them to save themselves the trouble and use a character editor to get the stats they really want. Therefore, don't decide whether to include this "feature" or not based upon whether it can be abused. Decide to include it or not based upon whether it has utility to legitimate players.

    Also bear in mind that BG2 is a single player or co op game. Someone ending up with more HP than they should because they abused the system is hardly going to cause an international incident.

    XKal
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It's a single player game, players should be allowed to exploit as much as they like.

    Silverstar
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 498
    1e (AD&D) PnP only allowed you to go up one level at a time. You stop earning XP until you find a tutor for that level up. Brutal and not appropriate for CRPG of course. Just an anecdote.

    GreenWarlock
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