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Breaking immersion in the game - did anyone like this inside joke?

xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear
There is a discussion in the game where CHARNAME is asked to give their name. And one dialogue option is to say "Liam Esler". Now, I like the game a lot, I think it's mostly a resounding success, but this was a terrible idea. Inside jokes are fun, if you're on the inside, and this one immediately made me think that the game developers giggled a lot over this one. But it's just a terrible, terrible gaffe. It breaks immersion instantly. Why oh why did they do that, I thought.

How do others feel about this?
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Comments

  • BGLoverBGLover Member Posts: 550
    Beamdog adding immersion breaking references to the modern world into our beloved BG series of games?

    Beamdog would do anything for a buck, wouldn't they!
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    edited April 2016
    No no no no no. I am very happy to have paid for this game. It was cheap, and the experience has been good. I have nothing against Beamdog at all. But this is not to say that I won't point out what I think is a terrible gaffe.

    But you were probably joking.
  • BGLoverBGLover Member Posts: 550
    xzar... I agree you have every right to point out things in the game you don't like.

    I was just making the point (perhaps too obliquely) that what some people might call immersion breaking, or inside jokes, or fourth wall breaking, have always existed in the BG series of games.

    Which is not to say I necessarily like it, but I find it hard to say I love zebra's, and then criticise them for those unsightly stripes.
  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,286
    Is it worse than the list of possible passwords in the Thieves Guild in BG:EE which contains, for example, 'Bodhi' as a possible option? (Can't remember the other passwords). I imagine you could say: no, because Bodhi is something in-game (albeit BG2:EE) and, if you never played BG2:EE before, it is a nice foreshadowing. I always find it a bit odd to see that name there.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    edited April 2016
    @BGLover: Sure they have, but there are degrees. Can you point out a previous instance where the game has alluded to a specific member of the development team in such an overt manner? I certainly can't.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Doubledimas said:

    Is it worse than the list of possible passwords in the Thieves Guild in BG:EE which contains, for example, 'Bodhi' as a possible option? (Can't remember the other passwords). I imagine you could say: no, because Bodhi is something in-game (albeit BG2:EE) and, if you never played BG2:EE before, it is a nice foreshadowing. I always find it a bit odd to see that name there.

    But the correct password is Fafhrd, who not only is not in the game, but is a character from a different fictional universe entirely.
  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,286
    Fardragon said:

    Doubledimas said:

    Is it worse than the list of possible passwords in the Thieves Guild in BG:EE which contains, for example, 'Bodhi' as a possible option? (Can't remember the other passwords). I imagine you could say: no, because Bodhi is something in-game (albeit BG2:EE) and, if you never played BG2:EE before, it is a nice foreshadowing. I always find it a bit odd to see that name there.

    But the correct password is Fafhrd, who not only is not in the game, but is a character from a different fictional universe entirely.
    Never heard of him before so to me it sounded like just a silly made-up word.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2016
    Doubledimas said:

    Fardragon said:

    Doubledimas said:

    Is it worse than the list of possible passwords in the Thieves Guild in BG:EE which contains, for example, 'Bodhi' as a possible option? (Can't remember the other passwords). I imagine you could say: no, because Bodhi is something in-game (albeit BG2:EE) and, if you never played BG2:EE before, it is a nice foreshadowing. I always find it a bit odd to see that name there.

    But the correct password is Fafhrd, who not only is not in the game, but is a character from a different fictional universe entirely.
    Never heard of him before so to me it sounded like just a silly made-up word.

    The Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories by Fritz Leiber where quite well known in 90s D&D circes, having appeared in 1st edition Deities and Demigods.

    It would be equivelent to having "Eddard Stark" as a password in 2016.
    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • StoibsStoibs Member Posts: 66
    edited April 2016
    Guess I'm out of the loop, have no idea what that name is in reference too.
    Fardragon said:


    It would be equivelent to having "Eddard Stark" as a password in 2016.

    That either.

    They all just sound like plausible names or passwords to me.
    If you happen to catch a reference to something that others would miss, then have a chuckle (or don't) and then just move on I guess. Vanilla BG1 and 2 had loads of references and pop culture easter eggs by default anyway.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    @Stoibs: Indeed they did. What made me bring this up was the fact that this was a particularly overt reference to the *game developers themselves*. I don't think there has been one like that before. Or if there has, do tell me.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    Part of the fun of Baldur's Gate is that it is full of popular (and not so popular) culture references and I never find these break immersion at all. However, I think this is very different to including in-jokes about the writers/developers. That I think is self-indulgent and just comes across as a bit smug.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2016
    In order to be consistent with BG1, SoD should have been chock full of pop culture references, but they should all have been impossible to spot for anyone under the age of 40.


    In all seriousness, back in 1998 I did find the pop culture references somewhat immersion breaking, especially "by your command" since it cropped up so frequently. At times BG1 is close to "Knights of Pen and Paper" territory. If Beamdog do BG3, I think they should try to avoid any pop culture references, and try to let the humour arise naturally out of the situations.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    Fardragon said:

    If Beamdog do BG3, I think they should try to avoid any pop culture references, and try to let the humour arise naturally out of the situations.

    I disagree. I think if you are going to do an expansion or a continuation of a series you need to stay true to the source material. If you are going to continue the Baldur's Gate series then you need to try to capture the spirit of the original games. Otherwise, why bother? Why not just do something new?

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Permidion_Stark said:

    Fardragon said:

    If Beamdog do BG3, I think they should try to avoid any pop culture references, and try to let the humour arise naturally out of the situations.

    I disagree. I think if you are going to do an expansion or a continuation of a series you need to stay true to the source material. If you are going to continue the Baldur's Gate series then you need to try to capture the spirit of the original games. Otherwise, why bother? Why not just do something new?

    Well I think BG1 illustrates the massive flaw in relying on pop culture for humour: 18 years later no one gets the joke.

    To be fair, even Shakespeare included pop culture jokes that no one gets now.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the name you give is "Liam Ensler" (or "Liane Ensler" if your character is female), not Esler.

    A small difference, admittedly, but not quite the same name. Carry on!
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited April 2016
    As far as precedent goes, the gravestones in Nashkel make direct references to the developers (one even reads, "this game will be the death of me" or something). That said, I kind of agree with OP...I didn't really care for the dialogue reference here and think Charname should generally stay away from making meta references him/herself.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    @Dee: I stand corrected. But as you yourself admit, the difference is small. I don't believe anyone would have doubts as to who "Donalt Trump" is referring to.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited April 2016
    The thing is that it was not only once, I could give this answer at least twice :expressionless:
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    Considering game portraits were made from photos of the developers, and there are tons of references all through the original BG-series to a lot of not so serious stuff, I can't even understand why this would be an issue? I think a lot of people have too much nostalgia in their head to see the reality of the originals.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Is this really any worse than the evil dialog options you get presented with when playing as a good character? Or vice-versa? I mean, why can't the game detect that my CHARNAME and whole party is good or neutral, or that they are evil, and not present me with dialog options that I would never pick since it would not be "correct" for RP and then break immersion?

    Honestly, I am getting tired of that term being thrown around for every fault in SoD as if it were vastly different than every other game in the series, or in the genre. Do you all have VR googles and run in the game in some special fashion I am unaware of? If so, please tell me, I would really like to gain this higher level of immersion I have somehow missed in playing the series for 16 years. I mean, I love the story line and I usually don't pick the nonsensical option, but maybe I have been playing the game wrong all these years....
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Putting real-world references into computer games has a long and glorious tradition going back to the earliest years of computer-based games. In Bard's Tale I if you say "burger" to the priests at the Temple of the Mad God they will get upset and throw you out ("burger" was the nickname of one of the developers at Interplay). In Pool of Radiance several of the tavern tales you hear (referenced in the manual) refer to other video game franchises at the time such as Bard's Tale, Ultima, and Phantasie. If you know where to look, in the original Wasteland there is a crystal ball; if you look into the crystal ball you will see a wizard who tells you "what do you think this is, Bard's Tale?". I lose track of them all but Fallout2 had dozens of references to Doctor Who (or was that Fallout? the random encounter where you find a Tardis), Magic: the Gathering, The Blues Brothers, and other TV shows, movies, books, etc.

    These cultural references make games *more* enjoyable because they give you little moments of enjoyment when you find the Easter eggs.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    HOW DARE THEY BREAK IMMERSION FOR THE SAKE OF ENTERTAINMENT?! HOW DARE THEY?!!!

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    From top of my head, in PST you have "Enoll Eva's Duplication" as a spell name.
    In BG2, there is Gavid. (this is less obvious)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    mf2112 said:

    Is this really any worse than the evil dialog options you get presented with when playing as a good character? Or vice-versa? I mean, why can't the game detect that my CHARNAME and whole party is good or neutral, or that they are evil, and not present me with dialog options that I would never pick since it would not be "correct" for RP and then break immersion?

    Honestly, I am getting tired of that term being thrown around for every fault in SoD as if it were vastly different than every other game in the series, or in the genre. Do you all have VR googles and run in the game in some special fashion I am unaware of? If so, please tell me, I would really like to gain this higher level of immersion I have somehow missed in playing the series for 16 years. I mean, I love the story line and I usually don't pick the nonsensical option, but maybe I have been playing the game wrong all these years....

    It would be very involving to reduce responses based on alignment (reducing responses this way is simple enough but then if other responses have their own restrictions (like say class or stat restrictions) it ends up requiring a lot more responses. Plus that would assume an evil character would never say nice things to get what they are really after. So basically...it's complicated.
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    @Avenger_teambg where's the Lazslo NPC? :wink:
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  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    elminster said:

    mf2112 said:

    Is this really any worse than the evil dialog options you get presented with when playing as a good character? Or vice-versa? I mean, why can't the game detect that my CHARNAME and whole party is good or neutral, or that they are evil, and not present me with dialog options that I would never pick since it would not be "correct" for RP and then break immersion?

    Honestly, I am getting tired of that term being thrown around for every fault in SoD as if it were vastly different than every other game in the series, or in the genre. Do you all have VR googles and run in the game in some special fashion I am unaware of? If so, please tell me, I would really like to gain this higher level of immersion I have somehow missed in playing the series for 16 years. I mean, I love the story line and I usually don't pick the nonsensical option, but maybe I have been playing the game wrong all these years....

    It would be very involving to reduce responses based on alignment (reducing responses this way is simple enough but then if other responses have their own restrictions (like say class or stat restrictions) it ends up requiring a lot more responses. Plus that would assume an evil character would never say nice things to get what they are really after. So basically...it's complicated.
    I know, I was being somewhat facetious. I just think "breaking immersion" has been overused now to the point of being meaningless.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    Isn't Liam Ensler the dev who was given -1 on all his saves by WotC?

    I get what the op is saying. I think that Breaking the fourth wall needs to be done with a light hand but I enjoy them when they are done well. And yeah, the it's been done forever. The captain of the guard in Castle Greyhawk is Col. Sanders.
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