Um, what?! There are many kingdoms, principalities, republics, etc. There are tons of "countries". Stop being silly. It's like someone didn't ever look at a map of Faerun.
, and the Order of the Radiant Heart is only known to be in Atkhatla, not Maztica, not Zakhara, nowhere but Amn, and whether they like it or not, Amn is run by individuals who care more about their agendas and money, meaning they don't care much about what goes on in a foreign land like Baldur's Gate unless it threatens their interests. And from what I've read from D&D sourcebooks mentioning Amn, the Council of Six's primary interest is money. How does one Bhaalspawn threaten that?
The Order of the Radiant Heart is a fraternity of lawful good paladins and clerics that operates throughout Faerûn.
There are a good number of countries in Faerun but a good part of the faerunian landmass doesnt really belong to any country, and even inside countries there are many non controlled lands
Um, what?! There are many kingdoms, principalities, republics, etc. There are tons of "countries". Stop being silly. It's like someone didn't ever look at a map of Faerun.
, and the Order of the Radiant Heart is only known to be in Atkhatla, not Maztica, not Zakhara, nowhere but Amn, and whether they like it or not, Amn is run by individuals who care more about their agendas and money, meaning they don't care much about what goes on in a foreign land like Baldur's Gate unless it threatens their interests. And from what I've read from D&D sourcebooks mentioning Amn, the Council of Six's primary interest is money. How does one Bhaalspawn threaten that?
The Order of the Radiant Heart is a fraternity of lawful good paladins and clerics that operates throughout Faerûn.
Not "countries" in OUR universe's terms! In our universe, our republics, kingdoms and prinicpalities are divided not just politically, but also by land. To be more specific, the various governments that exist today do not live on the same land. However, in the Forgotten Realms, the different republics, kingdoms, and principalities in Faerun share the same land for the most part, living near or next to each other, Luskan and Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate and Amn for example, but they are still divided, there is no true unity between them. Luskan and Neverwinter, for example, while they both are in Faerun, they do not get along at all.
I get it now. But that piece of information can be misinterpreted, there are many fraternities of lawful good paladins and clerics that operate around Faerun, the Order of the Radiant Heart is not the only one. Paladins and clerics may belong to one certain fraternity that is local to one region, but globally, they sometimes cooperate as if they are a united fraternity. If the Radiant Heart actually operated in Baldur's Gate's region of the Sword Coast like the Shadow Thieves do, then Ajantis, one of the companions of BG1 would not need to return to Amn to get promoted as a paladin after the iron crisis.
Um, no...they are still countries in our universe's terms. But they are more akin to Middle Ages countries, in that they are many "regions of control" which specific countries claim but do not have complete control over. There are even differing claims in some cases.
There are also a lot of independent city states. Most of the Sword Coast consists of independent city states, really.
Paladins and clerics may belong to one certain fraternity that is local to one region, but globally, they sometimes cooperate as if they are a united fraternity.
The order of the radiant heart being paladins have the means to detect if an accusation against someone has any merit since the charge against you is false they would know that and act accordingly.
The Order of the Radiant Heart is not an Amnish institution. They only happen to have a headquarter in Athkatla, as they have in other cities (and countries). They would know, and care.
Just because the Order is international doesn't mean that the members in one city would know about something that happened in another city over 500 miles away.
If you meet Coran and Safana in the Forest of Tethir in BG2, Safana wants to betray and kill you because there is a bounty on your PC's head. Why that is, was never explained before Siege of Dragonspear. The only logical explanation for Safana's desire to profit off your PC's death is because you're a wanted murderer. And in ToB in Neera's side quest, when you go to Thay to parteicipate in some kind of tournament battle, the Red Wizard announcer calls you the FALLEN hero of Baldur's Gate, and Yaga-Shura claims to know you as the "Terror of the Sword Coast", no matter if you're good or evil.
Actually, Safana mentions a wizard as the one offering a bounty on your head. I think it was clear enough that that was supposed to be Irenicus, same story as that party of shapeshifted peasants that attack you in Chapter Six as well.
Just because the Order is international doesn't mean that the members in one city would know about something that happened in another city over 500 miles away.
They sent Ajantis all the way to investigate the Bandit threads at the Sword Coast, but after that they lose interest? I just don't think so. Also, it doesn't fit the description of the Order linked above, where it is said that they observe the ongoings in all of Faerûn (but preferably not with interfering political-wise).
@BladeDancer Your statement about nowadays countries not being on the same 'land' is funny for someone lving in Europe. I asure you, there are a lot of political separated countries sharing the same continent nowadays, too.
@jastey Again, I'm not saying the Order couldn't know about what has happened, I'm just saying that it isn't guaranteed to know. I'll bet that even in today's world with instant communication across the globe you're not familiar with even every high profile crime that has happened in a city in foreign country. Now extrapolate that to a world where most messages have to be delivered by foot, and you'll see why I don't think you're complaint about the Order holds much water.
The PC is believed to be in ID for months - enough time for a messenger. Btw, the PC is greeted in the headquarters by "Greetings, CHARNAME. I have heard of you."
But it's great if you don't have a problem with this while playing BGII. For me, it makes me uneasy to play BGII until this is resolved in one way or the other.
Just because the Order is international doesn't mean that the members in one city would know about something that happened in another city over 500 miles away.
They sent Ajantis all the way to investigate the Bandit threads at the Sword Coast, but after that they lose interest? I just don't think so. Also, it doesn't fit the description of the Order linked above, where it is said that they observe the ongoings in all of Faerûn (but preferably not with interfering political-wise).
@BladeDancer Your statement about nowadays countries not being on the same 'land' is funny for someone lving in Europe. I asure you, there are a lot of political separated countries sharing the same continent nowadays, too.
@jastey I have no doubts about that, but you misunderstand my statement; politically separated governments or kingdoms that don't share the same land, especially ones that share the same land usually keep incidents that happen in their territory to themselves if their relationship is neutral, unless it happens to threaten everyone else and they all need to do something about it.
The order of the radiant heart being paladins have the means to detect if an accusation against someone has any merit since the charge against you is false they would know that and act accordingly.
You're right. If you're innocent, they would have no reason to act against you. At least for the time being.
There isn't anything to resolve. If the Order of the Radiant Heart is as well-informed as some claim, even over distances of hundreds of miles, they would know CHARNAME saved Baldur's Gate and was then falsely accused of heinous acts -- something many, many people in the city of Baldur's Gate know or at least suspect despite the official verdict to the contrary. Only if they somehow combine a well-oiled communications network with an inability to discern truth would they both know and fear CHARNAME.
The PC is believed to be in ID for months - enough time for a messenger. Btw, the PC is greeted in the headquarters by "Greetings, CHARNAME. I have heard of you."
But it's great if you don't have a problem with this while playing BGII. For me, it makes me uneasy to play BGII until this is resolved in one way or the other.
Again you're missing the point. Yes, a messenger could've been sent, but why do you think they would absolutely have to know? People and organizations as a rule are not omniscient.
Also the greeting you mention more likely refers to having heard of the things you've done in Amn. Even if you go straight from the chateau Irenicus to the Order headquarters, you were involved in a major event in the city. It honestly feel like you're just making up an excuse to dislike SoD.
I am not making this up to dislike SoD, and I know I am not the only one thinking that way. It is my real opinion. You have yours, and obviously decided to ignore any of my arguments, fine if it works for you (for me, these are real arguments that state my point. I cannot ignore them). I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, tbh.
@jastey I'm not ignoring your arguments, I'm saying they don't make any sense in the context. You're saying "Because there's a chance that the Order could know about the events in SoD, it creates a continuity issue" and I'm saying "Even if it's 99% certain that the Order would know about the vents in SoD, if there's a chance they couldn't then there is no error."
Continuity errors require actual contradiction, like how in BG1 it states that Gorion was a lover/friend of your mother while in ToB they say your mother was a priestess of Bhaal who intended to sacrifice you. That's not the case here. I'm not saying it can't bother you, opinions are like that, but just because you don't like how something works doesn't mean it is a continuity error.
I see your point (now, thank you for clarifying again). But with the same logic, you can say that the Gorion story is no continuity error, because it could just be that he told the PC a lie to glorify his actions or whatever. This could be true to 1%, so it's not a continuity error - according to your logic. (I am not trying to offend. I really think the Order would observe a Bhaalspawn such as the PC, especially after Ajantis knew him personally. The whole cruzade in SoD was due to the Bhaalspan's blood, for me there is just no way they wouldn't want to know about something like that, which would mean inclusion of the murder accusation and the controversy in BG city. Saying it's not a continuity error because it could just be that this would not happen is like giving explanations that are not 100% unlikely for any other controversy, imho - Gorion's story, NPCs that were killed by the PC, etcpp. But I agree that I might be biased here, being a huge Ajantis fan. He just wouldn't let this go unnoticed. :-) *I* will have to deal with this in my Ajantis mod, there is just no way I can ignore this and play on as if nothing happened in SoD.)
Continuity errors require actual contradiction, like how in BG1 it states that Gorion was a lover/friend of your mother while in ToB they say your mother was a priestess of Bhaal who intended to sacrifice you.
The two statements are not mutually exclusive and it's now resolved in SoD.
When the old Bhaal pristess tells of how the Harpers stole their children, she mentions that one harper who was in love with one of the priestess who got killed just before sacrificing her child. Although not mentioned by name, it is obviously Gorion and charname's mother
I see your point (now, thank you for clarifying again). But with the same logic, you can say that the Gorion story is no continuity error, because it could just be that he told the PC a lie to glorify his actions or whatever. This could be true to 1%, so it's not a continuity error - according to your logic. (I am not trying to offend. I really think the Order would observe a Bhaalspawn such as the PC, especially after Ajantis knew him personally. The whole cruzade in SoD was due to the Bhaalspan's blood, for me there is just no way they wouldn't want to know about something like that, which would mean inclusion of the murder accusation and the controversy in BG city. Saying it's not a continuity error because it could just be that this would not happen is like giving explanations that are not 100% unlikely for any other controversy, imho - Gorion's story, NPCs that were killed by the PC, etcpp. But I agree that I might be biased here, being a huge Ajantis fan. He just wouldn't let this go unnoticed. :-) *I* will have to deal with this in my Ajantis mod, there is just no way I can ignore this and play on as if nothing happened in SoD.)
Yeah, the mother example isn't the best but it's one I was sure people would at least be familiar with (didn't want to dive into another series like Star Trek or the like).
And if you always take Ajantis with you in BG1, it would make it more likely that the Order knows of what happens in SoD (although he does leave the city before it happens). I always play paladins myself so I've never once taken Ajantis in my party.
@jastey Again, I'm not saying the Order couldn't know about what has happened, I'm just saying that it isn't guaranteed to know. I'll bet that even in today's world with instant communication across the globe you're not familiar with even every high profile crime that has happened in a city in foreign country. Now extrapolate that to a world where most messages have to be delivered by foot, and you'll see why I don't think you're complaint about the Order holds much water.
Chances are that the Order in Amn knew what had happened. In a world where mages can teleport and clerics can communicate with their deities the chances that they dont know somebody murdered the only daughter of one of the Dukes of Baldurs Gate AND trapped or destroyed her soul (a terrible act) are very slim, imho.
@jastey Again, I'm not saying the Order couldn't know about what has happened, I'm just saying that it isn't guaranteed to know. I'll bet that even in today's world with instant communication across the globe you're not familiar with even every high profile crime that has happened in a city in foreign country. Now extrapolate that to a world where most messages have to be delivered by foot, and you'll see why I don't think you're complaint about the Order holds much water.
Chances are that the Order in Amn knew what had happened. In a world where mages can teleport and clerics can communicate with their deities the chances that they dont know somebody murdered the only daughter of one of the Dukes of Baldurs Gate AND trapped or destroyed her soul (a terrible act) are very slim, imho.
Except, in BG1 we see how most of the information travels. It's not teleporting mages or divination, it's messengers on foot.
@jastey Again, I'm not saying the Order couldn't know about what has happened, I'm just saying that it isn't guaranteed to know. I'll bet that even in today's world with instant communication across the globe you're not familiar with even every high profile crime that has happened in a city in foreign country. Now extrapolate that to a world where most messages have to be delivered by foot, and you'll see why I don't think you're complaint about the Order holds much water.
Chances are that the Order in Amn knew what had happened. In a world where mages can teleport and clerics can communicate with their deities the chances that they dont know somebody murdered the only daughter of one of the Dukes of Baldurs Gate AND trapped or destroyed her soul (a terrible act) are very slim, imho.
Except, in BG1 we see how most of the information travels. It's not teleporting mages or divination, it's messengers on foot.
Well, nobody in Amn cares about the day to day murders in Baldurs Gate, but that murder wasnt exactly a "day to day" murder. And even so, a messanger can do 500 miles (even if he isnt using a horse) in 3 weeks easily. Half that time riding a horse. You probably spend more than that time in Irenicus dungeon. So, the murder of Skie should be in evrybodys mouth in Athkatla.
Ps. Besides, are we sure there are 500 miles between Baldurs Gate and Athkatla?
@helmo1977 Skie's murder isn't day-to-day but it's still a relatively minor noble from a neighboring city state. It's not that the information couldn't get to Amn, but that even if it gets there how well it would be distributed.
@jastey Again, I'm not saying the Order couldn't know about what has happened, I'm just saying that it isn't guaranteed to know. I'll bet that even in today's world with instant communication across the globe you're not familiar with even every high profile crime that has happened in a city in foreign country. Now extrapolate that to a world where most messages have to be delivered by foot, and you'll see why I don't think you're complaint about the Order holds much water.
Chances are that the Order in Amn knew what had happened. In a world where mages can teleport and clerics can communicate with their deities the chances that they dont know somebody murdered the only daughter of one of the Dukes of Baldurs Gate AND trapped or destroyed her soul (a terrible act) are very slim, imho.
Except, in BG1 we see how most of the information travels. It's not teleporting mages or divination, it's messengers on foot.
Well, nobody in Amn cares about the day to day murders in Baldurs Gate, but that murder wasnt exactly a "day to day" murder. And even so, a messanger can do 500 miles (even if he isnt using a horse) in 3 weeks easily. Half that time riding a horse. You probably spend more than that time in Irenicus dungeon. So, the murder of Skie should be in evrybodys mouth in Athkatla.
Ps. Besides, are we sure there are 500 miles between Baldurs Gate and Athkatla?
It's about 400 if you combine these two maps.
Athkatla is just south of the Cloud Peaks. Based on some info I found earlier three weeks would be about right for a messenger on foot.
Thinking twice, the time for notices to travel should be far less, because the usual way of communication between Baldurs Gate and Athkatla shouldnt be via land, but via sea. A sailing ship can do those 400 miles in around 5 days. I took into account the fact that sailign ships cant travel in a straight line. Sea is far quicker (and sometimes safer) than any land route in an old technology enviroment.
Athkatla is a trading city, same as Baldurs Gate, so, I would guess at least one ship is bound for Athkatla (or returns to Athkatla) every week.
Thinking twice, the time for notices to travel should be far less, because the usual way of communication between Baldurs Gate and Athkatla shouldnt be via land, but via sea. A sailing ship can do those 400 miles in around 5 days. I took into account the fact that sailign ships cant travel in a straight line. Sea is far quicker (and sometimes safer) than any land route in an old technology enviroment.
Athkatla is a trading city, same as Baldurs Gate, so, I would guess at least one ship is bound for Athkatla (or returns to Athkatla) every week.
Except for the entirety of BG1 you see foot messengers traveling between BG and Amn with news about the brewing war. If communication by ship was as developed as you suggest, there's no reason for those messengers.
To be fair, we see horses but we never encounter anyone who is mounted. So we can take the on foot part with a grain of salt. Then there is the narrative medium the messengers fulfil. It seems we either need to go with the most logical conclusion or the one supported by game mechanics. I favour the first.
Thinking twice, the time for notices to travel should be far less, because the usual way of communication between Baldurs Gate and Athkatla shouldnt be via land, but via sea. A sailing ship can do those 400 miles in around 5 days. I took into account the fact that sailign ships cant travel in a straight line. Sea is far quicker (and sometimes safer) than any land route in an old technology enviroment.
Athkatla is a trading city, same as Baldurs Gate, so, I would guess at least one ship is bound for Athkatla (or returns to Athkatla) every week.
Except for the entirety of BG1 you see foot messengers traveling between BG and Amn with news about the brewing war. If communication by ship was as developed as you suggest, there's no reason for those messengers.
Well, it is clear that the messengers are part of the narrative. They are a way of telling you about events, not real messengers. Important news would travel via sea or via land, BUT using horses. Really important ones should be told by teleporting or magical means.
My take: There isn't really any concrete evidence to tie you to the murder. The murder weapon is missing, which implies someone must have removed it. Corwin is the kind of cop who would stubbornly continue with the investigation until she had got to the truth. Ergo, by the time you escape from the dungeon in Amn I am certain your name would have been cleared back in Baldur's Gate.
My take: There isn't really any concrete evidence to tie you to the murder. The murder weapon is missing, which implies someone must have removed it. Corwin is the kind of cop who would stubbornly continue with the investigation until she had got to the truth. Ergo, by the time you escape from the dungeon in Amn I am certain your name would have been cleared back in Baldur's Gate.
Your innocence being established in an official, legal sense doesn't mean that everyone believes you are innocent, even if you're the paragon of virtue. The popular opinion may still be against you, because people fear Bhaalspawn. I mean, folks just dealt with the reality that Sarevok was Bhaalspawn and was trying to start a freakin' war to make himself Lord of Murder. They're definitely afraid of you, which makes it interesting for a good guy CHARNAME, imho. You go from being the best person since the guy who invented sliced bread to someone everyone is afraid of or wary of. "How do we know he won't turn out to be evil in the long run?" is the general thought. Is it fair? No, but it's not meant to be. You left Baldur's Gate and headed towards Amn for a reason, after all.
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I get it now. But that piece of information can be misinterpreted, there are many fraternities of lawful good paladins and clerics that operate around Faerun, the Order of the Radiant Heart is not the only one. Paladins and clerics may belong to one certain fraternity that is local to one region, but globally, they sometimes cooperate as if they are a united fraternity. If the Radiant Heart actually operated in Baldur's Gate's region of the Sword Coast like the Shadow Thieves do, then Ajantis, one of the companions of BG1 would not need to return to Amn to get promoted as a paladin after the iron crisis.
There are also a lot of independent city states. Most of the Sword Coast consists of independent city states, really. Pretty much.
Actually, Safana mentions a wizard as the one offering a bounty on your head. I think it was clear enough that that was supposed to be Irenicus, same story as that party of shapeshifted peasants that attack you in Chapter Six as well.
@BladeDancer Your statement about nowadays countries not being on the same 'land' is funny for someone lving in Europe. I asure you, there are a lot of political separated countries sharing the same continent nowadays, too.
Again, I'm not saying the Order couldn't know about what has happened, I'm just saying that it isn't guaranteed to know. I'll bet that even in today's world with instant communication across the globe you're not familiar with even every high profile crime that has happened in a city in foreign country. Now extrapolate that to a world where most messages have to be delivered by foot, and you'll see why I don't think you're complaint about the Order holds much water.
Btw, the PC is greeted in the headquarters by "Greetings, CHARNAME. I have heard of you."
But it's great if you don't have a problem with this while playing BGII. For me, it makes me uneasy to play BGII until this is resolved in one way or the other.
Also the greeting you mention more likely refers to having heard of the things you've done in Amn. Even if you go straight from the chateau Irenicus to the Order headquarters, you were involved in a major event in the city. It honestly feel like you're just making up an excuse to dislike SoD.
I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, tbh.
I'm not ignoring your arguments, I'm saying they don't make any sense in the context. You're saying "Because there's a chance that the Order could know about the events in SoD, it creates a continuity issue" and I'm saying "Even if it's 99% certain that the Order would know about the vents in SoD, if there's a chance they couldn't then there is no error."
Continuity errors require actual contradiction, like how in BG1 it states that Gorion was a lover/friend of your mother while in ToB they say your mother was a priestess of Bhaal who intended to sacrifice you. That's not the case here. I'm not saying it can't bother you, opinions are like that, but just because you don't like how something works doesn't mean it is a continuity error.
And if you always take Ajantis with you in BG1, it would make it more likely that the Order knows of what happens in SoD (although he does leave the city before it happens). I always play paladins myself so I've never once taken Ajantis in my party.
Ps. Besides, are we sure there are 500 miles between Baldurs Gate and Athkatla?
Skie's murder isn't day-to-day but it's still a relatively minor noble from a neighboring city state. It's not that the information couldn't get to Amn, but that even if it gets there how well it would be distributed.
Athkatla is just south of the Cloud Peaks. Based on some info I found earlier three weeks would be about right for a messenger on foot.
Athkatla is a trading city, same as Baldurs Gate, so, I would guess at least one ship is bound for Athkatla (or returns to Athkatla) every week.
They're definitely afraid of you, which makes it interesting for a good guy CHARNAME, imho. You go from being the best person since the guy who invented sliced bread to someone everyone is afraid of or wary of. "How do we know he won't turn out to be evil in the long run?" is the general thought. Is it fair? No, but it's not meant to be. You left Baldur's Gate and headed towards Amn for a reason, after all.