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Shadowrun in general and Shadowrun Returns

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  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,656
    edited September 2016


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425

    Fardragon said:

    As befits someone who complains about the magic, I generally play a Decker.

    Didn't think Hong Kong was sufficiently different to Dragonfall, but I have one on the iPad and the other on PC.

    Actually a lot of reviews I saw (this was when it first came out mind you, I haven't looked since then) actually say it was better than Dragnfall, it was another step forward exactly of dragonfall was a BIG step forward from shadowrun.

    Fardragon said:

    Fardragon said:

    I read the 1st edition rulebook. Was disapointed by the generic fantasy tropes. Would have prefered streight up cyberpunk, without the elves. Thus, I never played it PnP.

    I like the Dragonfall game. One of the best RPGs I have on my iPad.

    The entire point of Shadowrun is the mixture of fantasy and cyberpunk tropes. If you want cyberpunk without fantasy then at the time there was Cyberpunk 2020, GURPS Cyberpunk, and probably other options that aren't immediately coming to mind.
    They could have added fantasy without adding sub-Tolkien cliché. Just use real myth and legend for inspiration, rather than stuff made up in the mid 20th-century.

    Anyway, when Shadowrun first came out I'm pretty sure those others weren't available. At least not where I was living.

    Yup, just checked, Shadowrun published in 1989, GURPs Cyberpunk 1990.
    R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk was published in 1988, one year before Shadowrun.

    Anyway, they did use some real life myth and legend for inspiration, but the point of the RPG was cyberpunk with orks and elves. It also makes several departures from Tolkien beyond that point. They weren't doing it wrong, they were doing exactly what they set out to do.
    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    Hey! Kids visit this forum. Lol

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    Fardragon said:

    As befits someone who complains about the magic, I generally play a Decker.

    Didn't think Hong Kong was sufficiently different to Dragonfall, but I have one on the iPad and the other on PC.

    Actually a lot of reviews I saw (this was when it first came out mind you, I haven't looked since then) actually say it was better than Dragnfall, it was another step forward exactly of dragonfall was a BIG step forward from shadowrun.


    I don't see how it could be a big step forward, given that it was exactly the same game but set in a different city.

    There where a few tweaks to the rules, which where controversial, but I think where generally an improvement, but apart from that it stuck to exactly the same format: Do mission, return to base, chat to companions, shop, do another mission, so on and so on. That was okay for one game, but it got a bit boring for the second. The sequel really needed to do more to shake up the format.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The Zulu have a rich tradition of mythology of their own. With no elves. Zulu elves = cultural imperialism.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,695
    Please people mind your language. This is a PG 13 forum.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946
    Fardragon said:

    The Zulu have a rich tradition of mythology of their own. With no elves. Zulu elves = cultural imperialism.

    This is certainly a valid concern, given the absence of Zulu mythology informing the presence of Zulu characters in the setting. Most of the fantasy elements in Shadowrun are European with a few nods to other regions and cultures.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,656


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    Fardragon said:

    The Zulu have a rich tradition of mythology of their own. With no elves. Zulu elves = cultural imperialism.

    This is certainly a valid concern, given the absence of Zulu mythology informing the presence of Zulu characters in the setting. Most of the fantasy elements in Shadowrun are European with a few nods to other regions and cultures.
    There is some Native American in there. (The decent stuff).

    And I would argue that the D&D races are modern American, rather than European. It's more D&D than Tolkien even.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,
    Where is Harlequin's birthdate given as being in the 4th world?

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,656


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,
    Where is Harlequin's birthdate given as being in the 4th world?
    History

    "Harlequin was born in the Fourth World. In the Age of Legends, he was a senior Knight of the Crimson Spire of the City of Spires, Sereatha. The Knights of the Crimson Spire were dedicated to the preservation and protection of elven culture and traditions. Harlequin served as Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court in the Blood Wood. While ambassador, he loudly condemned the corruption of the elves of the Blood Wood. Queen Alachia ignored all his criticisms, causing others to believe the two were related by family or were on intimate terms. Some unknown tragedy broke Harlequin's spirit, removing all notions of being a noble knight. As the last of his order, Harlequin is also known as the Last Knight of the Crying Spire."


    http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Harlequin
    There is a lot of other stuff in general about lore, but I haven't dug through it all though.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/249v0q/history_101_data_nexus/

    ShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    Fourth world? So Darkseid is behind it all.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,
    Where is Harlequin's birthdate given as being in the 4th world?
    History

    "Harlequin was born in the Fourth World. In the Age of Legends, he was a senior Knight of the Crimson Spire of the City of Spires, Sereatha. The Knights of the Crimson Spire were dedicated to the preservation and protection of elven culture and traditions. Harlequin served as Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court in the Blood Wood. While ambassador, he loudly condemned the corruption of the elves of the Blood Wood. Queen Alachia ignored all his criticisms, causing others to believe the two were related by family or were on intimate terms. Some unknown tragedy broke Harlequin's spirit, removing all notions of being a noble knight. As the last of his order, Harlequin is also known as the Last Knight of the Crying Spire."


    http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Harlequin
    There is a lot of other stuff in general about lore, but I haven't dug through it all though.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/249v0q/history_101_data_nexus/
    Okay, so the wiki, and an unsourced bit at that.

    I was more asking which book elaborates on Harlequin's origins.

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    I think the Shadowrun wiki needs more work.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,656


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,
    Where is Harlequin's birthdate given as being in the 4th world?
    History

    "Harlequin was born in the Fourth World. In the Age of Legends, he was a senior Knight of the Crimson Spire of the City of Spires, Sereatha. The Knights of the Crimson Spire were dedicated to the preservation and protection of elven culture and traditions. Harlequin served as Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court in the Blood Wood. While ambassador, he loudly condemned the corruption of the elves of the Blood Wood. Queen Alachia ignored all his criticisms, causing others to believe the two were related by family or were on intimate terms. Some unknown tragedy broke Harlequin's spirit, removing all notions of being a noble knight. As the last of his order, Harlequin is also known as the Last Knight of the Crying Spire."


    http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Harlequin
    There is a lot of other stuff in general about lore, but I haven't dug through it all though.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/249v0q/history_101_data_nexus/
    Okay, so the wiki, and an unsourced bit at that.

    I was more asking which book elaborates on Harlequin's origins.
    All I have is the wiki, but unless you can give me some source stating he was born in the second world or created by dragons; I find it less believable than what the wiki says.

    Well there is Harlequin second edition published by FASA corp which one of the table of contents is the past. But I don't own the book, so take it with a grain of salt really.

    ShapiroKeatsDarkMage
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    What is the best class for a Shadowrun newbie?

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,
    Where is Harlequin's birthdate given as being in the 4th world?
    History

    "Harlequin was born in the Fourth World. In the Age of Legends, he was a senior Knight of the Crimson Spire of the City of Spires, Sereatha. The Knights of the Crimson Spire were dedicated to the preservation and protection of elven culture and traditions. Harlequin served as Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court in the Blood Wood. While ambassador, he loudly condemned the corruption of the elves of the Blood Wood. Queen Alachia ignored all his criticisms, causing others to believe the two were related by family or were on intimate terms. Some unknown tragedy broke Harlequin's spirit, removing all notions of being a noble knight. As the last of his order, Harlequin is also known as the Last Knight of the Crying Spire."


    http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Harlequin
    There is a lot of other stuff in general about lore, but I haven't dug through it all though.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/249v0q/history_101_data_nexus/
    Okay, so the wiki, and an unsourced bit at that.

    I was more asking which book elaborates on Harlequin's origins.
    All I have is the wiki, but unless you can give me some source stating he was born in the second world or created by dragons; I find it less believable than what the wiki says.

    Well there is Harlequin second edition published by FASA corp which one of the table of contents is the past. But I don't own the book, so take it with a grain of salt really.
    The thing is that the information about immortal elves is pretty sparse , aside from their appearances in sourcebooks that do not elucidate their origins. There's a reference in the free and formerly downloadable Dragons sourcebook for Earthdawn that discusses dragons making immortal servants in the second world, although I am still tracking that down. In the fourth world they made servants called "drakes," which are shapeshifting metahumans who take a dragonlike form.

    The thing about the immortal elves is they knew all about the Horrors' arrival and how to defend against them during the Fourth World (Age of Legend). This is because they had already lived through a Horror invasion during the Second World (Age of Dragons). This is also how they had (as Thera) the leverage to keep the great dragons from taking certain actions before the Horrors arrived.

    There were two adventure books that featured Harlequin's direct involvement - Harlequin and Harlequin's Back. Neither of these establish a clear origin for him, and especially not a clear origin in the Fourth World.

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,
    Where is Harlequin's birthdate given as being in the 4th world?
    History

    "Harlequin was born in the Fourth World. In the Age of Legends, he was a senior Knight of the Crimson Spire of the City of Spires, Sereatha. The Knights of the Crimson Spire were dedicated to the preservation and protection of elven culture and traditions. Harlequin served as Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court in the Blood Wood. While ambassador, he loudly condemned the corruption of the elves of the Blood Wood. Queen Alachia ignored all his criticisms, causing others to believe the two were related by family or were on intimate terms. Some unknown tragedy broke Harlequin's spirit, removing all notions of being a noble knight. As the last of his order, Harlequin is also known as the Last Knight of the Crying Spire."


    http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Harlequin
    There is a lot of other stuff in general about lore, but I haven't dug through it all though.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/249v0q/history_101_data_nexus/
    Okay, so the wiki, and an unsourced bit at that.

    I was more asking which book elaborates on Harlequin's origins.
    All I have is the wiki, but unless you can give me some source stating he was born in the second world or created by dragons; I find it less believable than what the wiki says.

    Well there is Harlequin second edition published by FASA corp which one of the table of contents is the past. But I don't own the book, so take it with a grain of salt really.
    The thing is that the information about immortal elves is pretty sparse , aside from their appearances in sourcebooks that do not elucidate their origins. There's a reference in the free and formerly downloadable Dragons sourcebook for Earthdawn that discusses dragons making immortal servants in the second world, although I am still tracking that down. In the fourth world they made servants called "drakes," which are shapeshifting metahumans who take a dragonlike form.

    The thing about the immortal elves is they knew all about the Horrors' arrival and how to defend against them during the Fourth World (Age of Legend). This is because they had already lived through a Horror invasion during the Second World (Age of Dragons). This is also how they had (as Thera) the leverage to keep the great dragons from taking certain actions before the Horrors arrived.

    There were two adventure books that featured Harlequin's direct involvement - Harlequin and Harlequin's Back. Neither of these establish a clear origin for him, and especially not a clear origin in the Fourth World.


    Shadowrun NPCs doesn't seem to be ad developed ad D&D NPCs.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,656
    edited September 2016


    I mean I've looked at the lore... fucking zulu elves... ZULU FUCKING ELVES!

    I don't think I read that particular bit of lore, but elves (and dwarves) were present in every human culture because UGE (unexplained genetic expression) happened globally. What is it about "Zulu elves" that makes them so noteworthy?
    You forgot orc and troll, and it happened to everyone who actually had the dna in their genes, actually to my knowledge elves even existed during the era's without magic. Harleyquinn lived through 1-2 if I remember correctly

    ITs just the name... Zulu...elves... WHY? Also, yes it is in all the world, not just zulu.
    Well, they're elves who are Zulu. Makes sense.

    I didn't forget orks and trolls. They came about due to goblinization. UGE was elves and dwarves only.

    The immortal elves lived between cycles. Harlequin, Ehran, Laverty, Sosann Naerain, etc. were all born probably in the second world (or at least created by dragons). They lived through enough to know about Horrors in the fourth world (Earthdawn). But the vast majority of people who could be elves weren't elves because magic was too low. When magic got high enough, people didn't turn into elves, but elves were born. This is before mentioning stuff like spike babies and the like.
    I didn't say that I didn't make sense, I just don't like the name; Its a simply opinion. Actually, harlequin was born in the fourthworld, In the Age of Legends. The rest is stuff I already know,
    Where is Harlequin's birthdate given as being in the 4th world?
    History

    "Harlequin was born in the Fourth World. In the Age of Legends, he was a senior Knight of the Crimson Spire of the City of Spires, Sereatha. The Knights of the Crimson Spire were dedicated to the preservation and protection of elven culture and traditions. Harlequin served as Sereatha's ambassador to the Elven Court in the Blood Wood. While ambassador, he loudly condemned the corruption of the elves of the Blood Wood. Queen Alachia ignored all his criticisms, causing others to believe the two were related by family or were on intimate terms. Some unknown tragedy broke Harlequin's spirit, removing all notions of being a noble knight. As the last of his order, Harlequin is also known as the Last Knight of the Crying Spire."


    http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Harlequin
    There is a lot of other stuff in general about lore, but I haven't dug through it all though.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/249v0q/history_101_data_nexus/
    Okay, so the wiki, and an unsourced bit at that.

    I was more asking which book elaborates on Harlequin's origins.
    All I have is the wiki, but unless you can give me some source stating he was born in the second world or created by dragons; I find it less believable than what the wiki says.

    Well there is Harlequin second edition published by FASA corp which one of the table of contents is the past. But I don't own the book, so take it with a grain of salt really.
    The thing is that the information about immortal elves is pretty sparse , aside from their appearances in sourcebooks that do not elucidate their origins. There's a reference in the free and formerly downloadable Dragons sourcebook for Earthdawn that discusses dragons making immortal servants in the second world, although I am still tracking that down. In the fourth world, they made servants called "drakes," which are shapeshifting metahumans who take a dragonlike form.

    The thing about the immortal elves is they knew all about the Horrors' arrival and how to defend against them during the Fourth World (Age of Legend). This is because they had already lived through a Horror invasion during the Second World (Age of Dragons). This is also how they had (as Thera) the leverage to keep the great dragons from taking certain actions before the Horrors arrived.

    There were two adventure books that featured Harlequin's direct involvement - Harlequin and Harlequin's Back. Neither of these establish a clear origin for him, and especially not a clear origin in the Fourth World.
    Here is the thing, without concise evidence that the immortal elves were those slaves. That can refer to anything, heck golem's and homunculi are actually things in Shadowrun and they are created. The immortal elves, immortality if I remember correctly is connected directly to the world tree and have nothing to do with dragons who are being of pure magic. So you're really just making an assumption there based on a single word that actually has many uses since there are actually many ways to be considered, "immortal." Technically Golems are immortal too, they'll never die through natural means. I will emit the shape-shifting metahumans are actually news to me, I'll need to research that. I do know that immortal elves actually do date back to the first age, so there were some created around the time dragons were created.

    The thing is, you're assuming ALL immortal elves were born at the same time which we know is not the case since Sheila Blatavska is the founder of the Atlantean Foundation, and Jane Foster is the illegitimate daughter of Ehran the Scribe is an immortal elf and was born after the awakening.

    I did just read about Denairastas and the dragon kin children, interesting, though. The closest thing we have to dragon's creating elves is Alamaisein earthdawn fathered the great elves race.


    The bottom line of all this is, we are ultimately going back and forth about something that in its own right, has very little information about it as it is. Nothing can really be said beyond speculation, or trusting wiki sources.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946
    Where the heck did a "world tree" come from?

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946
    edited September 2016
    Yeah, Dragons pretty much confirms that the immortal elves were created as servants to the great dragons. It's pretty explicit on the topic, including setting the origin of the immortal elves in the Age of Dragons (second world).

    If the tree you're thinking of is Oak Heart, that tree was planted by the Passion Jaspree at Alamaise's behest. Alamaise being a great dragon who, during the Age of Dragons, established the Wyrm Wood as his domain.

    Anyway, the text says that
    In time, Alamaise desired servants able to oversee the whole of his domain, and he did not consider the elves - or any of the Young Races (humans, dwarves, orks, trolls, t'skrang, etc) - worthy of the task. According to their legends, Alamaise made a bargain with Jaspree and Astendar to allow him to create servants worthy of him, children born of his blood and that of the elves who made their homes within Wyrm Wood. Alamaise took elven form and mated with elven women to bring forth the first of these servants. The first born was named Caynreth, the First Listener of Harmony spoken of in elven legend. Others followed and became the founders of the Elven Court, the center of elven culture. In this way Alamaise wove the first threads of Wyrm Wood's pattern and laid the foundation of elven civilization as it is now known.

    Alamaise taught his children that they were superior to other Name-givers, for they had the blood of great dragons in their veins. However, Alamaise stifled the greatness of his children, rather than encouraging them to reach their true potential, as I have done with you. He failed to encourage their greatness, and so instilled a streak of rebellion in them. (Or perhaps elves cannot help but be treacherous and Alamaise's progeny fell victim to the elven side of their heritage.)

    In time, the Children of Alamaise rebelled against him. First in small ways, by shaping elven culture and belief towards their own ends, then in greater acts of betrayal, including stealing magical lore from their creator. Eventually, there was open rebellion everywhere and towards the end of the Age of Dragons, the Children of Alamaise led other Name-givers to overthrow the rule of the dragon overlords. Alamaise himself was grievously wounded by Caynreth, his first daughter. Rather than destroy all he had created, Alamaise fled Wyrm Wood for another lair, where he slept for thousands of years, from the end of the Age of Dragons to the beginning of this Age (the fourth world, the Age of Legend), all the while slowly healing his woulds out of the reach of his traitorous children...
    And in-character commentary from a dragon:
    It is interesting that the Outcast portrays the events of the creation and ultimate rebellion of the Children as having to do with Elfbane (Alamaise) alone. Surely he remembers, and chooses to obfuscate, our participation in these events. The Children of the Dragons do not belong solely to Elfbane. They are all our children, errant though they may be. Indeed, if it weren't for the disaster which followed the rebellion, the Outcast's later actions might never have led to his exile. I wonder why he has chosen to portray these events in this light? Why would he keep the truth from his children?
    If you can find the PDF, the information on Alamaise starts on page 68.

    Pretty explicit that the immortal elves are the children - and for a time, servants - of the great dragons.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,656

    Where the heck did a "world tree" come from?

    IT was something I read from the first age, I'm too tired to go re-digging around for it now.

    Yeah, Dragons pretty much confirms that the immortal elves were created as servants to the great dragons. It's pretty explicit on the topic, including setting the origin of the immortal elves in the Age of Dragons (second world).

    If the tree you're thinking of is Oak Heart, that tree was planted by the Passion Jaspree at Alamaise's behest. Alamaise being a great dragon who, during the Age of Dragons, established the Wyrm Wood as his domain.

    Anyway, the text says that

    In time, Alamaise desired servants able to oversee the whole of his domain, and he did not consider the elves - or any of the Young Races (humans, dwarves, orks, trolls, t'skrang, etc) - worthy of the task. According to their legends, Alamaise made a bargain with Jaspree and Astendar to allow him to create servants worthy of him, children born of his blood and that of the elves who made their homes within Wyrm Wood. Alamaise took elven form and mated with elven women to bring forth the first of these servants. The first born was named Caynreth, the First Listener of Harmony spoken of in elven legend. Others followed and became the founders of the Elven Court, the center of elven culture. In this way Alamaise wove the first threads of Wyrm Wood's pattern and laid the foundation of elven civilization as it is now known.

    Alamaise taught his children that they were superior to other Name-givers, for they had the blood of great dragons in their veins. However, Alamaise stifled the greatness of his children, rather than encouraging them to reach their true potential, as I have done with you. He failed to encourage their greatness, and so instilled a streak of rebellion in them. (Or perhaps elves cannot help but be treacherous and Alamaise's progeny fell victim to the elven side of their heritage.)

    In time, the Children of Alamaise rebelled against him. First in small ways, by shaping elven culture and belief towards their own ends, then in greater acts of betrayal, including stealing magical lore from their creator. Eventually, there was open rebellion everywhere and towards the end of the Age of Dragons, the Children of Alamaise led other Name-givers to overthrow the rule of the dragon overlords. Alamaise himself was grievously wounded by Caynreth, his first daughter. Rather than destroy all he had created, Alamaise fled Wyrm Wood for another lair, where he slept for thousands of years, from the end of the Age of Dragons to the beginning of this Age (the fourth world, the Age of Legend), all the while slowly healing his woulds out of the reach of his traitorous children...
    And in-character commentary from a dragon:
    It is interesting that the Outcast portrays the events of the creation and ultimate rebellion of the Children as having to do with Elfbane (Alamaise) alone. Surely he remembers, and chooses to obfuscate, our participation in these events. The Children of the Dragons do not belong solely to Elfbane. They are all our children, errant though they may be. Indeed, if it weren't for the disaster which followed the rebellion, the Outcast's later actions might never have led to his exile. I wonder why he has chosen to portray these events in this light? Why would he keep the truth from his children?
    If you can find the PDF, the information on Alamaise starts on page 68.

    Pretty explicit that the immortal elves are the children - and for a time, servants - of the great dragons.



    Actually read that yesterday when I was digging around, so I will concede that point to you, but back to what I said before. Not all immortal elves were born during the second age. It just claims their race were sired by dragons.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946
    I never said all immortal elves were born in the second world? I mean Frosty was born in the sixth world, just for one example.

    I just don't know anything that confirms Harlequin's origins as in the fourth world.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,656

    I never said all immortal elves were born in the second world? I mean Frosty was born in the sixth world, just for one example.

    I just don't know anything that confirms Harlequin's origins as in the fourth world.

    There is nothing confirming that he was born in the second either. Which goes back to which do you choose to believe.

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