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Dwarven Defenders

Can someone confirm for me that a Dwarven Defender in defensive stance mode still only moves at 50% speed even if he's wearing a 'ring of free-action', etc.

In my head, a ring of free action should negate that 50% penalty, however, I'm assuming (and hoping) it doesn't because Dwarven Defenders (in my opinion) are already too powerful a fighter class and if that 50% movement penalty can be negated it would be crazy.

Comments

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    The movement penalty ignores all free action effects... It also seems to ignore spells and items that increase movement speed, such as haste or the boots of speed.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    I really don't care at all about balance, and I will go further telling that imo even talking of balance has no sense, beyond our personal opinions about it, not in games that make possible and legal things like FMT, Kensage, Cleric of Lathander11->Mage or Sorcerers using RoV and AoP while they are casting PI, IA, Whish.
    Each of those in an hypothetical 1 vs 1 against a Dwarwen Defender will destroy him each day of the week with almost no effort, excluding the very low levels when the Defender can not hope for more than a draw, as there is nothing he can do against the lev2 invisibility and the something-mage having 24 hours to leave the area, hide and rest.

    And Free Action is supposed to give to the character immunity to anything (or some things for certain types of FA) that limit, not change, the movement rate. The item and spell descriptions are clear about this. So, as per spell description, FA is not supposed to limit beneficial movement rate increasing and surely is not supposed to have a retroactive effect if applied by an item that apply the effect while equipped. I don't go to the extent to tell that equipping a FA ring an already hasted character should remain hasted even when the spell/potion effect naturally expires, even if this is the logical consequence of reading the in game and in manual description, but it seems perfectly logical that equipping the ring before using the stance should prevent the reduction of the movement rate while equipping it after should not "cure" it.

    So I think that the developers made a lame work in implementing the defensive stance, not according to my own opinion, what I like or dislike, or according to a misleading concept of balance that is simply not existing in the games, as there are already classes, kits and combinations that are way more powerful than others.
    I tell this according to the in game and in manual description of free action, that the developers could have changed, but choose to did not.

    But I am afraid that @Tresset is correct, the Dwarven Defender is still perfectly usable, even if implemented in a lame way, the slowing effect prevails on free action, even if is not supposed to do it according to the in game descriptions.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    :smiley:
  • AriusArius Member Posts: 92
    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.
  • yksimaltyksimalt Member Posts: 115
    edited October 2016
    I am partial to the last stated analysis.

    The trained skill of defensive combat is what gives the Dwarven Defender boosts.

    If the Dwarven Defender were to abandon the stance, i.e. run or move faster, then the defence would be lost.

    /A.
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    yksimalt said:

    I am partial to the last stated analysis.

    The trained skill of defensive combat is what gives the Dwarven Defender boosts.

    If the Dwarven Defender were to abandon the stance, i.e. run or move faster, then the defence would be lost.

    /A.

    This is my opinion as well. It is not a nefarious wizard or somesuch hindering your movement, it is a neccesity of your fighting style.
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 486
    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Mush_Mush said:


    Ring of Free action is meant to counter imposing effects magical or otherwise, the speed reduction for the Dwarven Defender is part of how he gets the resistance boost......... At least thats my take on it

    Free action, as in spell description, is supposed to give immunity to things that would LIMIT its movement. But as you correctly say that is your own take of it, what you say is fair and embraceable, as far as someone has the same opinion.
    Zilber said:

    yksimalt said:

    I am partial to the last stated analysis.

    The trained skill of defensive combat is what gives the Dwarven Defender boosts.

    If the Dwarven Defender were to abandon the stance, i.e. run or move faster, then the defence would be lost.

    /A.

    This is my opinion as well. It is not a nefarious wizard or somesuch hindering your movement, it is a neccesity of your fighting style.
    This is a very good RP reason imo.
    Yamcha said:

    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
    Completely agreed, imo there not even a possible comparison, a mage can be completely immune to what a defender has only better chance to save against, use long lasting buffs and short lasting ones, to get a very low AC, to negate hits and AoE or targeting spell damage, go invisible with spells and a staff at will, being not hitable or targetable by who don't see trough invisibility naturally and protect his buffs against dispell.

  • AriusArius Member Posts: 92
    Yamcha said:

    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
    A mage isn't a tank, they are lightly armored artillery
  • gmazcagmazca Member Posts: 60
    Arius said:

    Yamcha said:

    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
    A mage isn't a tank, they are lightly armored artillery
    Between Stone Skin and protections from just about anything under the sun, blurs, mirror images, etc. they are the most formidable tanks around. And they don't lose any spell-slinging power to do it. You could say they are heavily protected artillery, and they can get right in the enemy's face and not blink.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Unless they cast the Blink spell, of course. Dunno if that was in 2e, but it's still a thing.
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    gmazca said:

    Arius said:

    Yamcha said:

    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
    A mage isn't a tank, they are lightly armored artillery
    Between Stone Skin and protections from just about anything under the sun, blurs, mirror images, etc. they are the most formidable tanks around. And they don't lose any spell-slinging power to do it. You could say they are heavily protected artillery, and they can get right in the enemy's face and not blink.
    Well, they do lose it the second encounter. There also is the 2nd edition first level, non specialised mage. Calling him/her a tank, artillery or, well, anything useful is a stretch of imagination. Sub-par archer is the best they can aspire to.
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    Zilber said:

    gmazca said:

    Arius said:

    Yamcha said:

    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
    A mage isn't a tank, they are lightly armored artillery
    Between Stone Skin and protections from just about anything under the sun, blurs, mirror images, etc. they are the most formidable tanks around. And they don't lose any spell-slinging power to do it. You could say they are heavily protected artillery, and they can get right in the enemy's face and not blink.
    Well, they do lose it the second encounter. There also is the 2nd edition first level, non specialised mage. Calling him/her a tank, artillery or, well, anything useful is a stretch of imagination. Sub-par archer is the best they can aspire to.
    Just for the sake of playing devil's advocate you could customize a level 1 mage to be a tank thats almost as good as a fighter if not better (if only temporarily). You could give him/her 19 dex 16 con. shield. find familiar and reflect image and if your familiar happened to have polymorph self you also get a nice sword spider backup tank with the package :) also if said level 1 mage happens to steal a certain larloch scroll from a certain necro that would also help.

    10Hp 0AC & sword spider pet would give most level 1 fighters a run for their money.
  • gmazcagmazca Member Posts: 60
    Zilber said:

    gmazca said:

    Arius said:

    Yamcha said:

    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
    A mage isn't a tank, they are lightly armored artillery
    Between Stone Skin and protections from just about anything under the sun, blurs, mirror images, etc. they are the most formidable tanks around. And they don't lose any spell-slinging power to do it. You could say they are heavily protected artillery, and they can get right in the enemy's face and not blink.
    Well, they do lose it the second encounter. There also is the 2nd edition first level, non specialised mage. Calling him/her a tank, artillery or, well, anything useful is a stretch of imagination. Sub-par archer is the best they can aspire to.
    Ok, maybe I should clarify. I would say a mage could tank reliably once they hit spell level 4. As they grow from there they get even more protections. Yes, their ability to tank is limited by their spell-pool, but it does mitigate and eliminate damage very effectively. Perhaps it is best to let them tank the tough encounters and your fighters handle the minor foes as to not be resting every encounter.

    But I do concede to the fact that mages/sorcerers need a few levels under their belt before they can tank effectively.
  • AriusArius Member Posts: 92
    gmazca said:

    Arius said:

    Yamcha said:

    Arius said:

    Dwarven Defenders are the best tank on the entire platform of games.

    Mage is better
    A mage isn't a tank, they are lightly armored artillery
    Between Stone Skin and protections from just about anything under the sun, blurs, mirror images, etc. they are the most formidable tanks around. And they don't lose any spell-slinging power to do it. You could say they are heavily protected artillery, and they can get right in the enemy's face and not blink.
    That low level dispell axe and boots of speed and the chill axe with a little beserk mixed in and it will be clean up on isle 6 as there will be a wet spot where the mage was.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Ah, the classic competition between martial and mage...
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918
    Take a look at these liches, how long doesnt they stand until they are even hit? While it still being a total disaster to fight due to his spells. A mage played right is untouchable. Almost.

    Though I like the idea of a "tank" to be a heavy armored mountain with tons of HP, who fights. Not a fancy-dressed old man waving his hands while speaking in Latin. (Correct My spelling on Latin)
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881

    Ah, the classic competition between martial and mage...

    That's why a Fighter/Mage is so broken. They get the best of both worlds.
  • alceryesalceryes Member Posts: 380
    Kurona said:

    Ah, the classic competition between martial and mage...

    That's why a Fighter/Mage is so broken. They get the best of both worlds.
    That's why Fight/Mage/Thief is so broken. They get the best of both worlds (and steal from the third).
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.
    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
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