Discussion on translating 5e ruleset in to the next RPG
Chad
Member Posts: 90
Was torn between necroing a thread that had it's last post in May or starting a new one...decided to start a new thread since that topic had to do with comparing 2e to 5e whereas I wanted to get thoughts from the community about how 5e mechanics translate in a computer game.
Personally, my opinion of 5e is it's the closest thing to 1st / 2nd ed AD&D we've seen, which is a good thing IMO. The power levels for both characters and magic items in 3.x was ridiculous (at least in the video game adaptations) and I never experience 4e in any way, though heard it was atrocious from an RP standpoint and much more focused on tactical / grid based combat simulation. For the first time in more than 20 years I've been playing P&P, running a game at work every other week as DM and I'm loving the 5e rules. Balance can be a dangerous word, and I don't mean to make it seem that the classes in 5e are 'balanced' since full caster based classes are still leaps and bounds ahead of melee at mid-high level. However, I do feel 5e has bridged the gap in two important ways. First, at lower levels through the mid levels the various caster classes have a slow, but consistent climb toward overtaking melee and, second the ability to use short/long rests within a given time period allows for an important aspect to come in to play with regard to resource management.
Regarding the power increase/leveling process, 5e uses very low 'caps' such as proficiency starting at +2 and only going up to +6, vs. THACO starting at 20 and (for fighters) going in to the negatives and worse, in 3.x having attack bonuses skyrocket, especially with +8 magic weapons and spells. This means that a level 20 Fighter is not that much more skilled than a first level fighter... Many more HP, probably some pretty sweet magic items (the best being +3 enchantment!) and also some special abilities based on what subclass they took (Eldritch Knight, Champion, or Battle Master, if only using the PHB). Meanwhile, the cap on ability score increases at 20 and the limited feats available, while quite good, do nowhere near the insane increases feats from 3.x could accomplish.
Meanwhile, as full casters level, some very good spells become available, but there are some very important differences. First, Concentration rules mean that in most cases one caster can only have one buff available at a time. There are a few notable exceptions such as Mirror Image which doesn't require concentration, but the VAST majority of buff spells do. And any hit requiring a save to avoid losing a concentration spell means that Clerics/Wizards/etc. are much better served applying the buff to the party Fighter/Rogue and staying back out of harms way so the buff doesn't prematurely end. This edition has done a fantastic job of allowing the melee warriors to be the best warriors again... No more Clerics and Wizards being able to buff to god-hood and out fight the fighter. I lament the inability to build an effective/strong Fighter/Mage/Thief type (my favorite 2e class, alongside Ranger), but the Valor Bard does a good approximation, and you could always take 1-3 levels of Rogue if you really wanted to. So, again I'll say, casters do become powerful at the mid/higher levels and probably outshine the melee classes a bit with their ability to buff/control/and lay down fiery death, but they don't lose the NEED for their melee counterparts which is a great feature IMO.
In a video game, resting has always been a point of contention, from the ability in BG to take a shot at resting in the middle of a dungeon hallway to the NWN 5 second 'take-a-knee' so long as no enemy is within a certain radius. The 'short rest' feature, IMO allows for some interesting rules that could be in place for a video game, such as only allowing a long rest once every 24 hour time period (or perhaps only allowing a long rest after 14 hours of 'awake time') and perhaps allowing 2-4 short rests during that period between long rests. IMO an interesting path to bringing some ability to heal up, recharge some abilities and continue adventuring while discouraging or perhaps even disallowing long rests in unsafe locations.
Some other thoughts about 5e and the next potential video game from Beamdog...
Even more than in previous editions, I believe a true adaptation of 5e to a video game is better served by turn based combat in the vein of TOEE vs. the RTwP setup in the infinity engine games, though I imagine that (assuming the new game will still be infinity engine) there are probably difficulties converting it to a true turn based system, and that may not be what the fan base of Beamdog wants, bye-and-large. In a previous thread @Dee and @JuliusBorisov among others discussed the issue with Bardic Inspirations and how that would work in a video game for instance, and turn based would definitely make this easier for the player to use. However, there are certainly changes that could be implemented which would allow for the RTwP functionality, although they would be 'home-brewed' for adaptation to a video game, which is nothing new when converting D&D to a CRPG.
The way the system of 5e is set up will allow for any subsequent adventures, be they DLC or a true 2nd game in the series to require less power creep. Since magic is so much less over the top, it is not unrealistic for level 1-5 to consist of getting maybe 1 or 2 +1 weapons, possibly an armor or a couple other low end magic items and some potions for a party of adventurers... By level 10 it would not be unbelievable for the party to be split with some still using +1 and others having collected +2, but still not having magic in every slot.... +3 is the uber/epic high end, near artifact stuff, with only very special items (such as intelligent weapons, holy avengers, etc.) going above. This would allow for a 'BG1' type of game to take a party 1-10 and in subsequent adventures still have lots of room to go up to 20 with a much better feeling of joy as you get the higher end items without it becoming out of control where items are more responsible for a characters power than the class/racial abilities and levels.
Sorry for the wall of text, excited about the possibility of a 5e based CRPG...
What are some of your thoughts about the potential for a brand new offering from Beamdog?
Personally, my opinion of 5e is it's the closest thing to 1st / 2nd ed AD&D we've seen, which is a good thing IMO. The power levels for both characters and magic items in 3.x was ridiculous (at least in the video game adaptations) and I never experience 4e in any way, though heard it was atrocious from an RP standpoint and much more focused on tactical / grid based combat simulation. For the first time in more than 20 years I've been playing P&P, running a game at work every other week as DM and I'm loving the 5e rules. Balance can be a dangerous word, and I don't mean to make it seem that the classes in 5e are 'balanced' since full caster based classes are still leaps and bounds ahead of melee at mid-high level. However, I do feel 5e has bridged the gap in two important ways. First, at lower levels through the mid levels the various caster classes have a slow, but consistent climb toward overtaking melee and, second the ability to use short/long rests within a given time period allows for an important aspect to come in to play with regard to resource management.
Regarding the power increase/leveling process, 5e uses very low 'caps' such as proficiency starting at +2 and only going up to +6, vs. THACO starting at 20 and (for fighters) going in to the negatives and worse, in 3.x having attack bonuses skyrocket, especially with +8 magic weapons and spells. This means that a level 20 Fighter is not that much more skilled than a first level fighter... Many more HP, probably some pretty sweet magic items (the best being +3 enchantment!) and also some special abilities based on what subclass they took (Eldritch Knight, Champion, or Battle Master, if only using the PHB). Meanwhile, the cap on ability score increases at 20 and the limited feats available, while quite good, do nowhere near the insane increases feats from 3.x could accomplish.
Meanwhile, as full casters level, some very good spells become available, but there are some very important differences. First, Concentration rules mean that in most cases one caster can only have one buff available at a time. There are a few notable exceptions such as Mirror Image which doesn't require concentration, but the VAST majority of buff spells do. And any hit requiring a save to avoid losing a concentration spell means that Clerics/Wizards/etc. are much better served applying the buff to the party Fighter/Rogue and staying back out of harms way so the buff doesn't prematurely end. This edition has done a fantastic job of allowing the melee warriors to be the best warriors again... No more Clerics and Wizards being able to buff to god-hood and out fight the fighter. I lament the inability to build an effective/strong Fighter/Mage/Thief type (my favorite 2e class, alongside Ranger), but the Valor Bard does a good approximation, and you could always take 1-3 levels of Rogue if you really wanted to. So, again I'll say, casters do become powerful at the mid/higher levels and probably outshine the melee classes a bit with their ability to buff/control/and lay down fiery death, but they don't lose the NEED for their melee counterparts which is a great feature IMO.
In a video game, resting has always been a point of contention, from the ability in BG to take a shot at resting in the middle of a dungeon hallway to the NWN 5 second 'take-a-knee' so long as no enemy is within a certain radius. The 'short rest' feature, IMO allows for some interesting rules that could be in place for a video game, such as only allowing a long rest once every 24 hour time period (or perhaps only allowing a long rest after 14 hours of 'awake time') and perhaps allowing 2-4 short rests during that period between long rests. IMO an interesting path to bringing some ability to heal up, recharge some abilities and continue adventuring while discouraging or perhaps even disallowing long rests in unsafe locations.
Some other thoughts about 5e and the next potential video game from Beamdog...
Even more than in previous editions, I believe a true adaptation of 5e to a video game is better served by turn based combat in the vein of TOEE vs. the RTwP setup in the infinity engine games, though I imagine that (assuming the new game will still be infinity engine) there are probably difficulties converting it to a true turn based system, and that may not be what the fan base of Beamdog wants, bye-and-large. In a previous thread @Dee and @JuliusBorisov among others discussed the issue with Bardic Inspirations and how that would work in a video game for instance, and turn based would definitely make this easier for the player to use. However, there are certainly changes that could be implemented which would allow for the RTwP functionality, although they would be 'home-brewed' for adaptation to a video game, which is nothing new when converting D&D to a CRPG.
The way the system of 5e is set up will allow for any subsequent adventures, be they DLC or a true 2nd game in the series to require less power creep. Since magic is so much less over the top, it is not unrealistic for level 1-5 to consist of getting maybe 1 or 2 +1 weapons, possibly an armor or a couple other low end magic items and some potions for a party of adventurers... By level 10 it would not be unbelievable for the party to be split with some still using +1 and others having collected +2, but still not having magic in every slot.... +3 is the uber/epic high end, near artifact stuff, with only very special items (such as intelligent weapons, holy avengers, etc.) going above. This would allow for a 'BG1' type of game to take a party 1-10 and in subsequent adventures still have lots of room to go up to 20 with a much better feeling of joy as you get the higher end items without it becoming out of control where items are more responsible for a characters power than the class/racial abilities and levels.
Sorry for the wall of text, excited about the possibility of a 5e based CRPG...
What are some of your thoughts about the potential for a brand new offering from Beamdog? 5
Comments
4th Ed. was the main reason I stopped buying anything from WotC, just as Mechwarrior: Dark Ages made me stop buying anything to do with Battletech.
Actually, if you are getting +8 weapons in 3rd Ed., either you were playing in the Epic levels (Level 20+) or your DM broke the custom weapons rules. No non-epic weapon can have an enhancement bonus higher than +5. There is also a bunch of things wrong with your opinion on 3rd Ed., but I will let it lie.
My only concern with RtWP playstyle games and 5e is reaction actions and if they are going to be used up the first time the reaction happens in the round, or if the player can target their reaction to a set character or time.
I imagine it'll have to be adapted someway.
Actually, Baldur's Gate and NWN have both edited the way Bardic Inspiration works from PnP so if they edit it in a 5e game it would be staying true to tradition lol
If you want to play Thor, a warrior with a lightning hammer that returns to him when he throws it, you can. If you want to play Wolverine, complete with claws and regeneration, you can.
If you want to play Conan, you can.
Dr'zzt in 2nd Ed was a Level 16 Ranger. In 3.x, he is actually closer to what he was in the books (Fighter 10/Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 6). You can actually track his level progress as he goes through the books (Fighter 10 when he left Menzoberranzan, gaining Rogue 1 and Barbarian 1 while he was in the Underdark and his Hunter persona took over, then Ranger 6 when he met and trained under Mooshie and afterwards)
You are not locked into a fixed achetype.
By the way, BAB actually made things WORSE, not better. Sure, you get lots of APR. So what? You can't HIT with them. Every APR after the first gives a 5 THAC0 penalty on the hit, and it is cumulative. In other words, if you get, for example, 3 APR in BG, ALL 3 APR is at your THAC0 (which for the sake of this example, is 0). In 3.x, you get 4 APR at 0 THAC0 (functionally 20 BAB). However, your actual THAC0 for the attacks are 0, 5, 10 and 15. AC actually matters in 3.x, unlike in BG, where it is all or nothing. A high AC might not prevent the first hit (same as per BG) but it can easily prevent the rest, which does not happen in BG. Couple that with the higher HP totals due to the way that hit dice is handled in 3.x and what you call a "significant increase in power levels" is actually a NERF.
I don't know what you are on about with your rambling about builds and powergaming and all that sort of things. If you are not having fun, regardless of whether you are "powergaming" or making a lame, one-eyed mute bard, you are doing it wrong. Powergaming and story telling is a separate thing to how good an edition is. If you try to tell me that 2nd Ed doesn't have powergaming, I got news for you: What do you think all those "best dual class combination" or "Multi-class or dual-class" threads are all about?
I believe that you have made up your mind about the edition based on NWN, which is not even close to the intricacies of 3.x rules. Basing an opinion on an edition based on a computer game where RP is limited and powergaming is based on the difficulty of the endless combat is... well, pretty silly, to put it mildly. Especially when NWN is aimed at solo play, whereas in a table top, you are part of a party. Completely different game dynamics.
It is also obvious that you do not have an understanding of even the basic concepts of 3.x like BAB and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to dipping classes. I can probably fisk your entire post, but I prefer not. I will say this: That build you think is so powerful (Rogue 2/Monk 1/Cleric 1) is laughable for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that you put in redundant classes, combined a no-armour class with a heavy armour class and combined a skill monkey class with one that has the lowest skill points in the game. Just about any straight level 4 single class would beat the tar out of it, and be far more useful in a party. I won't even go into how the way levels are set up in 3.x means that you will not get the power of a 2nd Ed dual/multi class without a lot of knowledge of how the game works and open slather on every possible class and PrC ever created. That is right: Every single dual or multiclass character you have ever played in 2nd Ed is far more powergamey than any 3.x character.
Also, in real 3.x play, you can't "save up" your skill points to blow it all on that 1 SD level, so good luck with maxing things out then. This is actually one of the worst of NWN's mistranslation sins. Another being the rest anywhere nonsense, which never happens in real RP play under ANY game system across ANY edition.
Another thing: there is no functional difference between someone with AB of 200 attacking someone with an AC of 210 and someone with AB of 20 attacking someone with AC of 30. In both cases you need a 10+ to hit. Capping numbers is an illusion.
All this is, of course, off topic since you're discussing 3e pnp and any game Beamdog makes will be a video game. Making NWN a more appropriate comparison than pnp. Though I certainly understand TOEE would be a more fair comparison in regard to translation pnp rules (though no prestige without mods and very dependant on turn based mechanics).
A 5e video game with a story on par with Baldur's Gate or NWN2: MotB would make me instantly fall in love
I know you're kidding but let us not forget the Stormwind Fallacy. You can make an optimized character and still roleplay well.
For example one of my favorite D&D characters in 5e is
Name: Piro Faeren
Alignment: CN
Race: Forest Gnome
Str: 10
Dex: 16 (boost this after Charisma unless taking feats)
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 15 (Add Charisma every stat boost 'till capping at 20)
Glamour Bard 14/Archfey Warlock 6
This is an optimized build to create a super fey themed character. It's strong in combat but also fits the character since she has no spatial awareness (-1 perception) but Bard and Warlock both scale with Charisma. Glamour Bard and Archfey Warlock also give the character a number of fey themed abilities and if I recall 6 warlock with pact of the chain she can get a sprite familiar. Optimized but done so with flavor and RP in mind.
Edit: She's capped at 14 bard spellcasting but her warlock spell slots can be used to cast Bard spells and vice versa. Warlock is the only casting class that doesn't stack class levels for spell slots but that's because it gives other benefits.
Edit: I hope they add Unearthed Arcana stuff in a 5e game but mod support would also work to manually put them in.
The ironic thing is that he is wrong about every single aspect of the game he pillories. I don't mind if people hate 3.x. Hell, I hate 4th Ed, but I am pretty sure Diablo and WoW players would love it because it is aimed at their market. But I do mind if they hate a game because of misinformation and then tries to claim that misinformation as truth. This is a guy who played NWN (which is ultra basic 3.0 for NWN1 and some crazy variant of basic 3.5 in NWN2) and thinks he knows everything there is about 3.x, when the actual 3.5 game he should be playing to get a feel of the system is Temple of Elemental Evil.
I have played DnD all the way from 1st Ed days, and still have most of the Gold Box games on my computer. Not the recently remastered ones from GoG. The originals. Each and every one of the Editions has their own charm and quirks and ways to powergame. Hell, in the Dragonlance Gold Box games, you can cast mage spells in armour when multiclassing, and wield any weapon that any of your classes allows. That means a F/M/C is only restricted by the 1/3 XP gain.
Hang on, I think I just heard Chad's head explode.
When Chad started crying about powergaming and how it was bad for his roleplaying, I just had to respond to his obvious elitist, supremacist views.
Edit reason: Spelling.
A Domain spell can only be memorised in the Domain spell slot, not any spell slot. On top of that, the real Strength Domain does not even have Divine Power as a domain spell, so there goes your argument.
Arcane gishes are a joke with what is available in NWN2, non-existent in NWN1. If you want to take a 10d4 +10d6 HP (at level 20) character with a BAB of 15 and no armour into melee combat against the King of Shadows, be my guest. Personally, I'd be standing back and nuking the joint instead. Let Khelgar and his hammer do the tanking.
It is not off topic when you are crying about the rules of 3.x and piling on the hate, and then using as example a game that is not even close to 3.x rules. And yes, ToEE would be fairer, but it would torpedo your narrative.
I say to you this: 3.x is no different from BG (i.e., 2nd Ed) in terms of buffing and being strong. If you think that a straight Fighter in BG is somehow balanced against a Fighter/Mage (dual or multi) you are dreaming. What I did pick up from your posts is that you have a phobia against large numbers and you are going to great lengths to justify it. Sorry, that is not a good enough reason to pile hate on anything, game edition or otherwise.
WotC is like the EA of the PnP world, it seems.
On subject of converting 5e.
How do you think they'll do skill scaling? Since you don't invest skill points in skills but instead just increase proficiency do you think they'll be like "Oh, you have a +3 in Charisma (whether by having 16 charisma or 12 charisma + 2 for being proficient), you pass." Or do you think they'll actually do a dice roll? I imagine it'd be the former.
Such as the College of Whispers level 6 ability lets the bard steal the appearance of an enemy slain and get their surface level memories. Great for RP but I wonder how that would work in a video game. I think that would be an ability that would be cut and reworked.
Edit: I suppose though we'll probably just see PHB stuff and possibly DMG stuff in a 5e video game, at least at first. I could see expansions adding other stuff or a possible sequal adding things like how the Warlock was added to NWN2 from Complete Arcane (At least I think it was Complete Arcane).
+1 to every stat
Variant
+1 to two different stats
+1 Skill proficiency
+1 Feat
I feel like the variant is what humans are supposed to be but feats are an optional rule so that's why we have normal humans just having +1 to every statistic.
I think variant is better but that's assuming feats are available. I imagine in a 5e video game they will use feats. Many feats add +1 to a stat and do other effects like
Tavern Brawler
Accustomed to rough-and-tumble fighting using whatever weapons happen to be at hand, you gain the following benefits:
• Increase your Strength or Constitution score by 1,to a maximum of 20.
• You are proficient with improvised weapons and unarmed strikes.
• Your unarmed strike uses a d4 for damage.
• When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target.
or some just add a cool ability like
Inspiring Leader
Prerequisite: Charisma 13 or higher
You can spend 10 minutes inspiring your companions, shoring up their resolve to fight. When you do so, choose up to six friendly creatures (which can include yourself) within 30 feet of you who can see or hear you and who can understand you. Each creature can gain temporary hit points equal to your level + your Charisma modifier. A creature can’t gain temporary hit points from this feat again until it has finished a short or long rest.
Grappling is a very intriguing discussion as 5e has fairly good mechanics and a few ways to build specifically as a MMA style grappler. However, to date no game has unopened grappling so might be a pipe dream to have it in a 5e game.
You are probably right, in any case...just would make for a more boring game once hitting the mid levels when feats can really customize a character.
I think feats were made optional in 5e to help attract new players who wouldn't feel overwhelmed by the amount of material they needed to keep track of in their game, which was a big complaint of 3e. But this shouldn't be a concern in a crpg, so I would expect that feats will be included.