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EEKeeper Class Tweaking

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  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    Teo_live said:

    You mean Beamdog devs? I don't consider them canon nor would I trust them to balance out anything (the blackguard class for example completely broke the game for me with their +12 defense bypassable stackable no-save interrupting damage per hit, at warrior APR they are the better wizard slayers than wizard slayers lol).

    The Poison weapon ability has been rebalanced after 2.X. It isnt' no-save anymore.
    Teo_live said:


    The other thing I use EEkeeper for is to fix the swashbuckler bug of weapon proficiency not adding 1.5 apr as intended.

    As intended by whom? As long as you don't provide a source saying that Bioware intended to add APR to swashbucklers, you can't call it a bug. In your case, it's a feature request, and, as @Gallowglass rightly mentioned, there're arguments both for and against such a feature request.
    ThacoBell
  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 186

    As intended by whom? As long as you don't provide a source saying that Bioware intended to add APR to swashbucklers,

    There is also no source from Bioware stating proficiency on non-warriors are meant to be sub-par. Calling it a bug was a bad choice of words I admit even if I am right it would be more of an "oversight" than a bug.

    No point talking about this no one really knows the truth until they make a statement about it. At this rate we might as well start arguing do aliens really exist >.>

    On a positive side note, thank goodness broken poison weapon got updated....
    Gallowglass
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Ok, so I decided to play around with ee keeper and monk to see what I could come up with.
    I present to you The Werewolf Monk
    Short FUC... I mean FAQ;
    1. Does it work?
    Yes, but it feels kind of stupid. Since you cant give the monk any spells, you must give him innate abilities, which you can cast while shapechanged, and since appearently nobody is intimidated by a 2,4 meters man-wolf hybrid, with 15 cm razor sharp claws and glowing red eyes - they are perfectly happy discussing the finer points of gardening with you - there is literally NO game reason to ever change back to man/woman again. Druids want to cast spells every now and then, so they have a reason, but you dont. (Havent yet tested if you are healed a bit each time you change). IMHO seeing your enemy turn into a ferocious beast should decrease their morale a bit, like a weak fear mantle or something for the round you turn.
    (Needless to say, for immersion reasons however, there is a point in changing back and forth.)
    While on the subject of claws, do note that claws are actually just thick, long and sharp fingernails, and that werewolf hands, as far as I can tell, are kind of like human hands, only bigger... and clawed. I imagine calligraphy and screwing together IKEA furniture is a nightmare for werewolves, but that their hands are actually better than human hands at smacking people around. Thus, if you deal say, 1D10 dmg with human hands, because you have been practising the one inch punch for half your life, you could apply the same technique to werewolf hands and deal, say 1D12 maybe perhaps? But no, at higher levels, you are better off dispelling your claws. Its almost as if the devs did not want to invest precious programming hours to account for the possibility that some players will brake the rules and do ridiculous class combinations.
    Secondly, werewolves get a bonus to walking speed and so do monks, which means you will charge forward at ludicrous speed.
    Thirdly, if you have high str and dex, shifting only gives you the benefit of one extra attack per round. For a druid, this is fine, as you can then use your stats for wisdom. For a monk, well...
    Thus, I make sure the monk have 13 str and 11 dex, so that the shifting does bring a benefit.
    2. Does playing this class feel supercheaty and overpowered?
    Oh hell yes! 2 attacks per round and monk AC stacks with werewolf AC bonus makes you feel like a juggernaut.
    Because of speed and stealth, this is also an excellent scout.
    3. If this was a real kit, what would you change? (Long discussion. What? I was bored!)

    This would be some kind of thief kit, but one that cannot multiclass called chemist (Dr Jekyl and Mr Hide, the Incredible hulk etc there are lots of precedence for this class in popular culture). The class would get mage and priest spells, but very few, and the mage spells would be called 'scrolls' and the priest spells 'potions', and you would not chose what you memorise, it would be chosen randomly... however, sometimes the chemist would get his/her recipees wrong, and it would do something other than stated, kind of like Nahaals reckless dweomer. The class would have two THACOs, one proceeding at the speed of mage, the other at the speed of priest. The chemist would normally use the mage THACO, however, when the chemist quaffs a special potion he/she gets (on top of the other potions, 1 at lvl 1 and one every four levels following) he/she turns for 2 rounds + 1 round per level into a random monster (that all suspiciously look like werewolves) that gets the priest THACO, as well as claws that just like a monk scale damage with level, as well as a handful of special abilities, dependant on which monster turned into and which level the chemist is at, and natural AC that also scales just like monk with level. While turned into a monster, the chemist lose access to his scrolls and potions. The scrolls and potions are in a spellbook, so that they cannot be abused by resting a thousand times to stockpile them, but like scrolls and potions, the chemist can chose target. It will be "fun" of course when the chemist throws a potion of explosion at a group of enemies but oops actually it was a potion of extra healing, that instead heals all in the AOE. Or use a scroll of haste on the own party that actually was a scroll of confusion. The chemist would have the same weapon and armor restriction as a monk, but with three exceptions; they can equip armor, but only labcoats (since they dont exist in BG, mage robes), they can equip bucklers and they can equip light crossbows. Like monks, they cannot dualwield. Any other armor would either be torn apart when the chemist swell and bulge into the monster form, or crush the chemists if it doesn't. The chemist can use mage scrolls (but not cleric scrolls) but have a 25% chance of fizzling the scroll or cause the release of wild magic. (Note that the chemist cannot learn spells from scrolls, as he/she cannot actually cast magic, just create and use scrolls.) The chemist can can the following thief skills (while not turned into a monster); pick locks, find traps, set traps and disarm traps (he/she is a scientist and thus almost an engineer), but the chemist cannot use pick pockets, detect illusion and stealth. The chemist gain 15 points of thief skills per level. The chemist gain traps at the same rate as thiefs, but cannot backstab. The chemist have a D6 hitpoints per level, but while a monster gain an extra two maximum hit points per level, and is cured two hit points per level when turning into a monster. Turning into a monster also cures non-special/non-magical poisons. When the monster status ends, the chemist is confused for one round. If the chemist had more current HP when turning from monster back to chemist, than is chemist max, the current HP is reduced to chemist (non-monster) max, otherwise it stays the same. The chemist is also poisioned when the monster status end (a consequence of twixing and distorting the body) for 1 hp per round, for a number of rounds equal to his/her level. This count as a common poison and can thus be cancelled by quaffing another monster transformation potion (but is otherwise a waste if all enemies are already dead). While in monster status, the chemist also suffers from anger, bloodlust and mild confusion and can (just like the Hulk) sometimes lose control and target the nearest being, be that friend, foe or a scarecrow (just like Brages sword of berserking).
    The chemist gain the same HLA as thiefs and bards, with two exceptions. The chemist cannot learn "use any item" or "assasinate". However, the chemist can learn alchemy and scribe scroll, as if he/she had "use any item".
    Note that the potions are NOT magical in nature, and magic resistance and dispel magic and similar spells will not work against them - this also means that certain effects, that are magical in nature, such as a troll spirit potion, cannot be created by the chemist. Likewise, the chemist monster transformation is also not magical in nature and cannot be dispelled. Most (but not all) monster transformation hands are incapable of using items design for humanoid hands, and the chemist will simply drop on the ground whatever he held in his hand before he quaffed the monsrer transformation potion. This is generally not a problem, as most chemists are clever enough to wear belts (of flexible material) unto which to hang their gizmos, but can be a problem if the chemist is tasked with, say, safeguarding a fragile gem. Also note that the scrolls, unlike the potions, are magical in nature and are subject to magic immunity and dispel and similar magic, and also note that the chemist can only scribe mage scrolls, never priest scrolls. Finally note that the chemist have perfected the recipee for the monster transformation potions for personal use as well as aquired resistance to its side effects; anyone else, even other chemists, will be turned into a useless, deformed and mishappen monster for the duration of the transformation, if they were to quaff it.
    Basically, this class is a rather weak multiclass mage/priest/thief while not transformed but turns into a figherish monster at will, making it a versatile (how do you spell that?) class. Because this is kind of uber, the chemist also have following downsides (on top of occasionally casting the wrong spell or using the wrong potion and occasionally target friends while turned into a monster);
    *Slow level gain, like mages or paladins maybe
    *Excentric genius; +1 int, -2 cha
    *Mild insanity; -2 wis
    *Because of the to closest points above, chemists have a 50% chance of behaving erratic, awkward or inappropriate at social conventions and a 20% chance of unintenionally making/giving a rude, inappropriate or incoherent comment/answer each time they open their mouth. (Impossible to implement in BG of course, but so is also likely everything else, this is a strictly theoretical class.) They also dress outlandish - and this is ignoring that their clothes were funny to begin with, due to the fact that normal clothes rip, therefore thry dress in balloonish clothes or in flexible material - which makes them stand out in most any crowd. They will only dress down to more insuspicious clothes after coercion, and only if it makes logical sense to them (such as the threat of violence). For the same reason, they will also sport outlandish haircuts and accesories, and are very fond of (unconstricting, so that they do not rip) funnylooking hats. They are also utterly convinced that they are extremely interesting, and will prattle on and on about some recent event in the world of science, often failing to pick up on social clues urging them to drop the subject.
    *Long term potion abuse; -2 str, -2 con
    Sample monster transformation;
    Killer bunny
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_l1O6nIX_c3E/TMHSUPj1xQI/AAAAAAAAAds/UMsKhM6_0KY/s1600/Bunnyman2.jpeg
    Str 18, dex 20
    Innate abilities. Each ability is useable once per transformation, so if a chemist becomes a killer bunny two times in a row, he may use the abilities a total of two times if he/she used it in the first and in the second transformation. However, the chemist cannot "save" an ability; if he or she did not use it in the first transformation, he/she still only gets one use in the second transformation.
    Lvl 1: Holy handgrenade
    All killer bunnies carry a single holy handgrenade in a necklace around their neck. The holy handgrenade creates a small, but powerful explosion, and are enchanted with a seeking spell, so that they never miss their target. The holy handgrenade functions as a breath attack with no roll for hit and no save against the initial impact; it always hits (but is still subject to resistances and protection spells, such as iron skin). It deals 1D4 fire or crushing damage (whichever is more effective) per two levels of the killer bunny (read: chemist). The target must then succed with a fortitude save with a negative 2 modifier, or be stunned for 1D3 rounds. The holy handgrenade is not magical in nature, and cannot be resisted with resist magic, however, the seeking spell can be dispelled by an attentive spellcaster, causing the holy handgrenade to land randomly.
    Lvl 5: Horrific scream
    Horror, as per the spell.
    Lvl 10: Bloodlust
    Rage, as per the barbarian ability.
    Lvl 15: Bloodletting
    The killer bunny feast on the victims blod. The next attack that deals damage applies a vampiric touch on the victim, on top of the normal damage.
    Lvl 20: Stone cold gaze
    Rigid thinking, as per the priest spell.


    Ok without further adieou (how do you spell that?) I describe the procedure for creating the werewolf monk class.

    Create a dark moon monk if (for detect illusion).
    Remove all innate abilities, then add this;
    2x animate dead (to make you feel more like a monk druid hybrid)
    2x charm person or mammal (see above)
    2x invisibility (must have for any character)
    3x spiritual hammer (after hammer expires, you will 'unequip' claws)
    3x stunning blow (because you are a monk, after all)
    Now add kits;
    Shapeshifter lvl 001-006
    Gives 3x werewolf
    Cavalier lvl 001 to 002 x3
    Remove: Remove fear, protection from evil, detect evil
    Gives 3x Lay on hands (to compensate for no healing spells, which you would get if you were a druid. For now they heal a measly 2 hp, byt they soon get much better!)
    Dark moon monk lvl 001-005
    Retains abilities you deleted earlier + gives you 1x blur. (And since you are a dark moon monk, you will son get another.)
    Remove blindness, because it is shit and will just annoy you with its presence in the ability bar.
    Now go to effects. Add stalker lvl 001-002. Gives +20 hide and sneak (because monks only get 10 thief skills per level)
    I tried adding backstab, but it didnt work :(
    Dont forget to change alignment if lawful evil isnt your thing.
    Ok, now you are done with your lvl 1 werewolf monk.
    Add the following ability kits at the following levels;
    Lvl 4:
    Cavalier lvl 001-002, remove everything but lay on hands. (You are becoming a better healer, of course)
    Inquisitor, lvl 004-006, gives you 1x true sight and 1x dispel magic. (More priest spells).
    Remove all else, but keep 2x detect evil and 2x protection from evil (again, more priest spells, but also because protection from evil gives you a disco effect, perfect for parties!)
    Shadowdancer lvl 004 to 006
    Gives shadowstep (Monk flying kick teleportation. Its canon, trust me ;) )
    Lvl 8
    Cavalier, lay hands + inquisitor, true sight and dispel magic.
    Remove all else, but keep 2x detect evil and 2x protection from evil.
    Sun soul monk, lvl 004-006. (Gives flaming fists)

    Lvl 12
    Cavalier, lay hands.
    Shadowdancer, shadowstep.
    Dragon disciple, lvl 003 to 004. (Gives fire breath attack. Its also canon, look at the monk enemy you will encounter later.)
    Lvl 16:
    Cavalier, lay hands.
    Remove all werewolf.
    Add shapeshifter lvl 012-014 x3
    Gives three greater werewolf. Oh yeah!
    Add sun soul monk lvl 007 to lvl 14.
    Remove all sun soulray.
    Gives fireshield and a fireball-like attack. (Again, canon)
    Add dark moon monk lvl 010-012
    Gives (another, since you are a dark moon, you already got one at lvl 11) mirror image.
    Lvl 20
    Cavalier, lay hands.
    Dragon disciple, firebreath.
    Berserker, lvl 001-006 x2
    Gives two rages - consider it an extra HLA. The rages makes you immune to a shitload of conditions for one turn, in case your extreme magic resistance for some reason doesnt work. I thought it felt appropriate.
    Note: I tested most abilities to see if they work or crash the game, but rage wasnt one of them. I also only didnt test if lay on hands scales. If it doesnt, those healing spells are useless, sry!
    Just as with a true kit, do not add any more abilities after lvl 20!
    ThacoBell
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited January 2017
    DrakeICN said:

    ... it feels kind of stupid.

    Yes. 'Nuff said.
    Post edited by Gallowglass on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Stupid in a fun way :)
    ArctodusCrevsDaak
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    I remember a PnPmcampaign YEEEEEEARS ago where the dungeon master allowed a witch class, which was essentially a Druid/mage multiclass for humans and half elves. It was interesting, but he realized it was a bit OP.
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 426
    @DrakeICN
    Dumb question but what are those like "Shapeshifter lvl 001-006", how to do it in EEkeeper?
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    I dunno about your keeper, but for me, after you memorise 12 abilities (one ability 12 times, 12 abilities once, and anythinh in between), you cannot memorise more by using the +button, but you can add more by pressing "kit", chose a a kit, and set from which levels you want. Thus, I always add first abilities that no kit have, and then supplement with kits. Also remember that monks cant cast spells, so any ability that is resolved as a spell (most breath attacks, and magic missile, for instance) you add will be inaccessable for all classes / multiclasses that do not have a spell button.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    tbone1 said:

    I remember a PnPmcampaign YEEEEEEARS ago where the dungeon master allowed a witch class, which was essentially a Druid/mage multiclass for humans and half elves. It was interesting, but he realized it was a bit OP.

    Meet the warlock;
    http://www.athasreborn.com/prc/manual/
    (Press classes in the left column and click warlock in the right column)
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