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YARAS (Yet Another Revised Armor System)



  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821
    Pecca said:

    I don't see a reason why push clerics out of heavy armors, it's their class advantage.

    ineth said:

    For vanilla priests that's true, but suspect @subtledoctor might want this mod to mesh with Faith and Powers, which makes priests more caster focused.

    I've just changed the code, now casting speed penalties are applied via .eff, only to arcane casters. I haven't decided what to do about divine casters. (Interestingly, I'd never thought about how IR implements this, and the fact that the penalty can only be applied to the caster, not to the spells; thus, cleric/mages and fighter/mage/clerics necessarily have their divine spells affected by the penalty.

    @ineth makes a good point about Faiths & Powers, though. In that mod, Acolytes are limited to leather armor and get more magic, while Clerics are limited to chain mail, and fighter/clerics can wear plate armors. I think it would be reasonable to give a very slight disadvantage to the tanks wearing full plate. And an advantage to the guys in light armor.

    But it wouldn't be on the same scale as the arcane penalties. Whereas the arcane casting penalties go from +0 to +5, I would have the divine adjustments range from -1 to +1.
    jobby said:

    Would it be possible to create a ui mod that displays additional information in the inventory screen Such as damage resistance by damage type and dex penalty?

    That would be a question for a UI mid made by someone like @Pecca - it's not something you'll see in this mod.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,374

    @Djinn I hear all that, but the fact remains full plate is not something you go adventuring in. It is something specifically and temporarily used for jousts and that sort of thing. More important than RL history is the role the armor plays in the game. Just like how in the real world a "long sword" was a gigantic two-handed affair but in BG it's the standard medium-sized sword. Within the world of BG, full plate is big, bulky, expensive, and very protective.

    The weight of a set of plate armor is roughly equivalent to the gear modern soldiers carry into battle. Plate armor would weigh 45-55 lbs, while modern US soldiers carry at least 60 lbs of gear (sometimes over 100 lbs). So, the idea that plate armor is too heavy to wear for extended periods is not logical.

    Jousting armor *was* heavy (up to 100 lbs) with limited mobility, but it was very specialized armor. It was designed for use in tournaments, not to be worn in open combat. You can't equate plate armor with jousting armor for discussion of the mobility of a plate armor harness.

  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 1,917
    jobby said:

    Would it be possible to create a ui mod that displays additional information in the inventory screen Such as damage resistance by damage type and dex penalty?

    I guess it might be possible. The present problem is still limited compatibility among UI mods though.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821
    Nevertheless, Baldur's Gate is not a historical simulation. Weapons don't work the way they do in real life, magic doesn't work the way it does in real life (duh) and armor doesn't either. The armors exist on a spectrum of various stats, and they are balanced particularly for gameplay, not realism. It's good to have gameplay mechanisms grounded in sensible, semi-realistic concepts, but that's as far as we need take it.

    I mean I could make a mod where full plate is just in a different category than anything else. When the PC can afford full plate we could just give them the BMU and they could blast their way through everything. But that game would suck. Does it make sense that Oberyn Martell in leather armor with a spear could best Gregor Clegane in full plate with a claymore, in single combat? Of course not. But it makes for exciting storytelling - or, in this context, fun gameplay.

    So in this mod, like in the vanilla game, full plate armor is bigger, heavier, more protective, and bulkier than splint mail and plate mail. It will have the same Dex penalty as those armors, but provide better protection. And with all that metal, slower spellcasting.

    Also, let's be clear about what that means: full plate has a -4 penalty to Dex, but it's AC is 5 points better than leather armor. So even a very high-Dex character who can get the best avoidance capability from light armors, will still be less likely to be struck if wearing full plate. And if struck in full plate, he will have almost half the damage absorbed.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 881

    Nevertheless, Baldur's Gate is not a historical simulation. Weapons don't work the way they do in real life, magic doesn't work the way it does in real life (duh) and armor doesn't either. The armors exist on a spectrum of various stats, and they are balanced particularly for gameplay, not realism. It's good to have gameplay mechanisms grounded in sensible, semi-realistic concepts, but that's as far as we need take it.

    My next magic mod is going to be "Realistic Magic;" this mod is going to remove all spells, magical abilities, fantastic creatures, and references to magic of any form from the game. Wouldn't that be fun?

    On a serious note, I think this is a cool system but I think that you're trying to so finely balance it that it's become just as convoluted as the existing system. Why is the +X bonus only weakly correlated with the magnitude of the bonus is received? This isn't to say you can't make it as complex as you want, but realize that putting on plate armor and having your AC get worse is gonna get confusing.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821

    but realize that putting on plate armor and having your AC get worse is gonna get confusing.

    Fortunately, that won't happen with this system. :smile: In fact that's something I specifically didn't like about FPPS. FPPS took the change too far, with light armors giving you better AC than heavy armors. IR on the other hand, doesn't go far enough, it's almost not different from vanilla at all. I'm trying to find the goldilocks system, still balanced for the game but making a lightly-armored-and-nimble build slightly mote viable.

    Why is the +X bonus only weakly correlated with the magnitude of the bonus is received?

    As of the most recent revision (the first post has been updated) the +x bonus correlates exactly to the AC and DR bonus received. :sunglasses:

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821

    Most of this is working now. I only have two tasks left, and I want advice and discussion on them:

    1) Spells/items etc.

    My thoughts are, make Hardiness a "Set DR" ability, nerf Armor of Faith slightly, and give the Defender of Easthaven a very small (5%) permanent boost, and a once/day use of Hardiness.

    Barbarians will get a base max 10% DR. Dwarven Defenders will get base max 10%, and their special ability will just be like Hardiness, except with no movement.

    Armor spells will get no DR at all - because they are a purely magical effect, they will be all about avoidance, not absorption. Also no Dex penalty... basically I'm not going to touch these spells. (Except... should barkskin have a Dex penalty? Probably.)

    What other spells and items should I look at?

    2) Difference vs. damage types.

    Like I said in earlier posts, I'm leaning toward one of three options here.

    Option A: do nothing. DR is DR is DR.

    Option B: nerf blunt weapons. ALL armors get +6% DR vs. blunt damage, and -6% DR vs. piercing damage.

    Option C: different effects for different armors. mildly influenced by realism, but much moreso by game balance and giving player tactical choices for what kind of armor to wear. Each type of armor gets a bonus of -1 AC and +6% DR against a single damage type:
    - Leather: better against piercing
    - Studded: better against slashing
    - Hide: better against blunt
    - Chain: better against slashing
    - Scale: better against blunt
    - Splint: better against blunt
    - Plate: better against piercing
    - Full: better against slashing
    Which option sounds better? At the moment I'm leaning toward option B... but my mind is not yet made up.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,338
    edited June 2016
    I like ( something like) a combination between b and c. I like the way you put it: once a piercing weapon gets through, it does it's damage. But, what if it's less likely to 'get through'?

    A trade off between blunt and piercing could be that the latter is less likely to hit at all, but when it does, it does more damage. On the other hand, it's easier to land a damaging blow with a blunt weapon, but the armor will absorb some of the impact.


    Option D : option B + all armors get an ac bonus vs piercing, and +1ac penalty vs blunt.

    So, with slashing:

    Armor AC Armor DR
    Blunt +x(penalty) +x% (bonus)
    Slash. - -
    Pierce. -x (bonus) -x% ( penalty)

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,338
    With the silly (- to ac is good) this is clear as mud.

    Basically, blunt weapons are more likely to hit, but do less damage. Pierce is less likely to hit, but does more damage. Slashing is in between

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821
    edited June 2016
    No no, I understand completely, and I very much like that idea. It's not a straight nerf or buff to anything. Just slight differences in the application of different kinds of violence. :smile:

    It will mean making the description patches a bit more complicated, but that's okay. Instead of
    Armor Class: 6
    Damage Resistance: 14%
    Arcane Casting Speed: +3
    ... it will be:
    Armor Class: 6 (5 vs. piercing, 7 vs. crushing)
    Piercing Resistance: 8%
    Slashing Resistance: 14%
    Crushing Resistance: 20%
    Arcane Casting Speed: +3
    Also, FYI, I'm lumping missile and piercing damage types together. As far as I'm concerned, "missile damage" is just piercing damage delivered from afar.

    "But what about sling bullets??" you cry. Well, you should install Scales of Balance to set them to do crushing damage. :wink:

    Also, btw, as soon as I have a feature-complete version of this working I'll post it here. (Probably this weekend.) But the final product will probably join Scales of Balance. This goes perfectly with the other "Item & Weapon Overhaul" components.

    EDIT - last note: I've made minor changes to DEX bonuses. For thieving abilities, the bonuses start at +3% at DEX 14, plus 3% per point up to +15% at DEX 18, and then +5% per point above that. So an 18-DEX thief with leather armor drops to 17 DEX, but he will still have +12% to those thief skills. (Exceptions are HiS and MS - following the example of the vanilla table, those bonuses step up in increments of 2% and 3% instead of 3% and 5%. Because a bonus for one is effectively a bonus for the other as well. I don't know why the game even has separate skills for these.)

    DEX-based AC and ranged thac0 bonuses are basically increased by 1, and the increases continue up to 25 instead of stalling at ~20. So if Chain Mail +1 carries a -2 DEX penalty, compared to vanilla the AC will only be one point worse. But lightly-armored builds will be a bit better. A Stslker or Swashbuckler with light armor and high DEX and Single-Weapon Style should be able to create a good damage-avoidance build... but when you get hit, it will pack a wallop!

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • inethineth Member Posts: 519
    edited June 2016

    Option C: different effects for different armors.

    I think this is something that sounds cool in theory (which is why FPPS does it), but doesn't add much gameplay value in practice.

    There is only one armor slot (not multiple slots like with weapons), and you can't change it during combat, so keeping around multiple armors for each character and switching between them based on the enemies you fight would simply be too much of a hassle to be fun (and would usually depend on meta-knowledge).

    My point of reference here is Pillars of Eternity, which does give different damage reduction types to different types of armor. In practice, this doesn't affect tactical decisions very much though. I simply get a good armor for each character, and stick with it.

    There can still be a little tactical value to it, in the sense that if I have two melee characters specializing in different damage reductions, I might choose which one to send to the front line based on the enemies I see approaching. But in practice I don't even bother with that, because usually I end up having one character who outclasses all other party members in tankiness, regardless of damage type, so I'd always send in that character first.

    It does add a little "strategic" value, in the sense that if you find a magical amulet or something that gives a Damage Reduction bonus against a specific damage type, you might decide to give it to a character whose armor is vulnerable to that damage type (in order to make up for it), or you might decide to let a character wear it who already has a good score in that DR type, in order to make that character really really good at fending off a specific type of monsters.
    But again, in practice I didn't end up worrying much about that, and in any case the Infinity Engine games don't have enough equipment that gives specific DR bonuses, to make that really relevant.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,338
    I hear you, @ineth , but i do take these things into consideration in practice. :D i like to obsess over these things, in fact

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,338
    It also gives certain classes incentive to stick with their ' standard' weapons. Clerics have a lower thac0, and so use blunt to ensure they do something with their attacks. Thieves have this lovely backstab, and want to maximize that sticking with something more slashy or stabby

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821
    edited June 2016
    @ineth I agree, differences by damage type sound cool, but in terms of gameplay/tactics I don't think they actually add anything.

    I really like @Grammarsalad's idea (treat damage types differently but treat all armors the same) because it adds a bit of flavor while not trying to do anything about tactics. BUT the more I look at item descriptions the more I want to simplify them. This is pretty messy:
    Armor Class vs. piercing/slashing/crushing:
    4 / 5 / 6
    Resistance vs. piercing/slashing/crushing:
    12 / 18 / 24
    Arcane Casting Speed: +3 penalty
    Weapon Speed Factor: +2 penalty
    This is so much better:
    Armor Class:  5
    Damage Resistance: 18%
    Arcane Casting Speed: +3 penalty
    Weapon Speed Factor: +2 penalty

    Two more things:

    1) I'm going to add some weapon speed penalties here... probably +1/+2/+3/+4.

    2) I'm going to add penalties to stealth, for metal armors. Nothing complicated, probably just -30% to Move Silently for chain armors (except elven), and that plus -30% to Hide in Shadows for plate armors.

    You can wear a dark robe over chain mail, but it still jingles. Plate, on the other hand, is both noisy and shiny.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821
    edited June 2016
    I just realized a problem: I can't just have Hardiness and Defensive Stance *set* DR, because then any 'increment' effects will still boost it higher. So I have to think more outside the box.

    For Defensive Stance, the DR boost is 20% instead of 50%, and it only lasts 5 rounds instead of 10. (It cuts movement rate to 1/2, honestly I think 10 rounds of half movement rate is more of an annoyance than anything else, regardless of the increased durability.)

    For Hardiness, it's also a 20% boost, but it lasts 1 round per 2 levels, and does not hinder your movement at all.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,821
    Okay, I have a working version ready to go. I've added a link at the top of the thread. In addition to the changes I just mentioned, I made a very simple change to the Defender of Easthaven: dropeed its damage resistance bonus to a mere +5%, and dropped its price by 12,000 gp. So it's a flail +3, with a -1 AC bonus and a +5% DR bonus... in the context of this armor system, that is great and right in line with the other items sold by the bonus merchants.

    Cheers. Now back to bug-fixing my other mods.

  • inethineth Member Posts: 519
    This has been completely merged into Scales of Balance, right?
    So there's no point in downloading the Dropbox link from this thread anymore?

    Just asking to make sure, because you haven't updated this thread.

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