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Off-hand Thac0 too high

KhadinKhadin Member Posts: 5
I have this issue and can't see a solution anywhere (I have found a few people having the same problem). My Kensai 10/Mage 15 is dualing scimitars and I can't stand the humiliation done to me by Valygar, whose off-hand Thac0 is higher than mine! Valygar has 0 with the main-hand and 4 with the off-hand, while charname has 0 with the main-hand and 8 with the off-hand. I have taken of all the inventory except from the swords and it made no positive nor negative outcome.
Both Charname and Valygar have two weapons fighting on level 2. Valygar has katana proficiency in katanas level 2. Charname is the grandest of masters in scimitar wielding level 5.

My Charname Thac0 modifiers (as seen in inventory log):
Base Thac0: 11
Strength modification: -1 (that gives 10 Thac0)
Strength extra modification: -1 (dunno what that is, but it sums to 9 here)
Ability Bonuses: -3 (6)
Proficiencies: -3 (3)
Main hand Thac0 - Kachiko's Wakizashi +3: -3 (that's 0 so this one is correct)
Off hand Thac0 - Belm +2: 2 (Dunno if it's supposed to be +2 or -2, either way it should give Thac0 1 or 5, but I get Thac0 8!)

Where does this weird difference come from? Shouldn't I get a modifier 0/-2 from dual wielding? It looks like it's 0/-7 in reality, such a difference changes my enemy from a naked mage with Bracers AC6 into a tortoise in a scale armor!


  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 505
    posting a savegame would help us by giving us more information to work with.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,132
    I believe at one point the Kensai bonuses only applied to the mainhand, but if so that was fixed a while ago.
    It would explain the difference though:
    11: Base
    11/15: 2 stars in Two-Weapon Fighting is -0/-4, 3 stars is -0/-2.
    8/13: +3 Wakizashi, +2 Belm
    5/10: +3 Proficiency
    3/8: +1,+1 Strengths
    0/8: +3/+0 Kensai

  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    Shouldn't Valygar's base thaco be lower than the fighter mages? Though I admit I may be forgetting something in the dual/multiclass level calculations that doesn't make Valygar really any higher level.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,720
    In relation to the possible kensai bug, it could be that this was fixed for actual combat, but not for the information reported in the character record (I've seen a number of instances where the record screen information is incorrect). You can test that by trying to hit something with a known AC (like one of your party) and seeing what roll is actually required with main and off-hand.

    Does your character have exceptional strength of between 18(51) and 18(99) - to explain the second adjustment for that?

  • darkmoon500darkmoon500 Member Posts: 25
    Because valygar is not part mage, mages are weak, except for spell casting, so u probably got gimped by the game

  • KhadinKhadin Member Posts: 5
    Sorry for the delay. I'm attaching the savegame here. The explanation with kensai bonuses not being aplied to the off-hand sounds plausible btw.

  • KhadinKhadin Member Posts: 5
    edited September 2017
    I tried testing my Thac0 on poor Keldorn. I don't really understand the numbers in the log, but here's data:
    Keldorn wears -9 AC
    Charname has 0/8 Thac0
    Right hand hits on rolls 8-20
    Left hand hits on rolls 15-20

    So again something is not right. But what is another mystery are the numbers that are added to the roll result - they are not constant! (Right hand has a bonus ranging from 12 to 14, off hand has a bonus ranging from 5 to 7 or so). THe fight system in this game is so chaotic to me ...

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,132
    I see a kensai/mage with 0/5 THAC0 when I load that save, which adds up.
    Kensai/Mage has Base Thac0 11
    Mainhand shows modified THAC0 0 (11 - 11 = 0):
    • +1 strength
    • +1 extra strength
    • +3 ability(kensai)
    • +3 proficiency
    • +3 weapon
    Mainhand shows modified THAC0 5 (11 - 6= 5):
    • +1 strength
    • +1 extra strength
    • +3 ability(kensai) -- This may not be displaying for you, but it does appear to be working.
    • +3 proficiency
    • +2 weapon
    • -4 two-weapon style
    Keldorn has -6 AC base with:
    • -1 AC bonus vs. piercing (Kachiko's Wakizashi)
    • -3 AC bonus vs. slashing (Belm)
    Mainhand rolls with +10, offhand rolls with +3, again adds up:

    Mainhand: 11(Base) - (-6[AC]) - 10(mod) = 7, which I see 7 hitting, 6's missing:
    • +1 strength
    • +1 extra strength
    • +3 ability(kensai)
    • +3 proficiency
    • +3 weapon
    • -1 AC vs. piercing
    Offhand:, 11(Base) - (-6[AC]) - 3(mod) = 14, which I see: 14 hitting, 13's missing:
    • +1 strength
    • +1 extra strength
    • +3 ability(kensai)
    • +3 proficiency
    • +2 weapon
    • -4 two-weapon style
    • -3 AC vs. slashing
    Same 7-point discrepancy that you are seeing, which is why I suspect the offhand ability bonus is working, even if its not displaying in the inventory/record. This displays correctly on Windows v1.3 and v2.0+, so unless you are running v1.2, maybe its a platform-dependent issue. v1.3 on top, v2.3 on bottom:

    Your characters about to succumb to a haste-induced fatigue in that save - if I wait a few rounds the rolls shift from [7/14] to [9/16].

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