Kensai Kai is very underwhelming....
malachi151
Member Posts: 152
Playing my first pure Kensai and I must say that Kai is almost worthless. And it seems that it's an ability that would only become less valuable over time since the gap between your min and max damage will be smaller and smaller as percentage of your overall damage. If you are wielding War Hammers, for example, it only adds +3 damage. Of course for Katanas it adds 10 damage, but 10 seconds is so short that once you deal with pathing issues it seems it really only benefits 1 to 3 attacks. I guess it's more helpful on single big targets where you aren't having to move between attacks.
I guess it's also good for throwing Kensai where pathing isn't an issue, but still it doesn't last long compared to Rage, which is a much better ability.
So the only real advantage of the class, which is a good one long-term, is the +1 to hit and damage per 3 levels.
But even this, by the end of BGII, is only +6, which is really only +3 above what you could get with the items you aren't allowed to use, and if you compare to a barb or Berserker, they both get to use those items and also get 30-60 second damage boosts that either comer close to surpass the +3 gap.
Now, by the end of ToB if you level up all the way you get +13, which is huge, but I certainly don't think Kensai/Mage is better than Berserk/Mage. Not even close. A Kensai/Mage dualed at 13 has a +1 passive advantage over a Berserker when you account for gear, and under the effect of Rage the Berserker has more +hit than the Kensai, though it's hard to compare the impact of Kai vs Rage, but still Rage lasts for 60 seconds vs 10 and gives an equal armor bonus to the Kensai passive more +hit and comparable damage over the duration. If you dual at level 9 then the Berserker is overwhelmingly better.
So to me, Dualed Kensai to anything doesn't really make sense. MAYBE Thief (For UAI and Kai Backstabs), but really, the issue is that the Kensai doesn't really get any advantage over comparable classes until it gets very high in level. IMO a level 13 Kensai is not even better than a naked level 13 Berserker. And really a level 13 Kensai is barely better than a straight Fighter, and arguably a level 9 Kensai is not as good as a straight Fighter due to gear.
Now, a level 24+ Kensai is scary, but that's beyond dualing level....
I guess it's also good for throwing Kensai where pathing isn't an issue, but still it doesn't last long compared to Rage, which is a much better ability.
So the only real advantage of the class, which is a good one long-term, is the +1 to hit and damage per 3 levels.
But even this, by the end of BGII, is only +6, which is really only +3 above what you could get with the items you aren't allowed to use, and if you compare to a barb or Berserker, they both get to use those items and also get 30-60 second damage boosts that either comer close to surpass the +3 gap.
Now, by the end of ToB if you level up all the way you get +13, which is huge, but I certainly don't think Kensai/Mage is better than Berserk/Mage. Not even close. A Kensai/Mage dualed at 13 has a +1 passive advantage over a Berserker when you account for gear, and under the effect of Rage the Berserker has more +hit than the Kensai, though it's hard to compare the impact of Kai vs Rage, but still Rage lasts for 60 seconds vs 10 and gives an equal armor bonus to the Kensai passive more +hit and comparable damage over the duration. If you dual at level 9 then the Berserker is overwhelmingly better.
So to me, Dualed Kensai to anything doesn't really make sense. MAYBE Thief (For UAI and Kai Backstabs), but really, the issue is that the Kensai doesn't really get any advantage over comparable classes until it gets very high in level. IMO a level 13 Kensai is not even better than a naked level 13 Berserker. And really a level 13 Kensai is barely better than a straight Fighter, and arguably a level 9 Kensai is not as good as a straight Fighter due to gear.
Now, a level 24+ Kensai is scary, but that's beyond dualing level....
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I mean if you compare Kia to Berserker Rage. Let's say Kai usually adds +8 damage for 10 seconds.
Rage adds +2 damage and +2 THAC0 for 60 seconds.
So that's +6 damage over Rage but no THAC0 bonus, so let's assume that the THAC0 results in a single extra attack landing. That one attack, plus the added damage on all other attacks for 60 seconds can easily surpass the damage for Kai.
I guess it all depends on situations and complex math, but from a dual class perspective, Rage and the ability to wear helmets and bracers seems to surpass the damage benefits alone of a Kensai, never mind the additional benefits of Rage.
Also, you're forgetting that the Kensai get +1 THAC0 and +1 damage every 3rd level, so a level 13 Kensai already has an extra +4 THAC0 and +4 damage. Kai is just icing on the cake for even more damage..
And if they dual class into a thief, once they get Use Any Item their armor restrictions are gone.
I do prefer Berserker myself, though, simply because leveling up a fighter that high without armor is pretty annoying. And I love having the rage immunities. And going all the way to 13 for a dual is really not all that fun, either, unless you are soloing.
edit:
At level 13, the Kensai/Mage is certainly superior (though only by a small amount) to the Berserker/Mage. I agree with you that at level 9, the Berserker/Mage is probably better, though.
For a dual class to a thief, Kensai is vastly superior.. Use Any Item removing the Kensai's disadvantage and Kai making a x5 backstab at max damage.....
Again though, unless you're soloing,, going to level 13 for a dual, at least for a mage dual, would really suck.
But the thief dual is not all that bad at all because of just how fast thieves level. Takes 1,250,000 xp to get to level 13 for a fighter, but only 880,000 to get to level 14 for a thief. So thats certainly an option for dual classing in a party. And then at level 18 thief you'd gain an HLA and can choose UAI..
Soloing a Kensai in BG1, even with the shield amulet, seems like it could be really tough.
Does Kai even combine well with GWW? They are both 1 round abilities, so I think you can only have one active per round. I have not played a Kensai for a long time.
Anyway, I think the discussion about combining it with offensive haste is a distraction. What matters is the relative damage increase, not the absolute damage increase. Going from 20 damage per round to 40 damage per round is great, going from 200 damage to 220 damage per round not so much. Adding Kai on top of IH does not increase relative damage more than adding KAI without IH.
And while we are discussing relative damage, as mentioned above it is also true that the relative damage increase from Kai does down the further you get in the damage. A level 1 Kensai with a Katana probably does about 1d10+4 damage per hit. That is an average of 9.5 without KAI and 14 with KAI -> 47% damage increase. A high-level Kensai should have at least (probably more) 1d10+20 damage. So 25.5 without KAI and 30 with KAI -> only 17.6% damage increase.
Since we consider Kensai/Mage dualclass, I think you could also increase efficacy more by just casting a fast-casting spell with your one Special Ability or Ability per turn.
Timestop is a bit more interesting, as you also autohit, which could be useful.
It's true that the damage from Rage doesn't scale either, but just from a pure offense perspective, Rage lasts 6 times longer and also gives you -2 THAC0, which is usually worth more than +damage.
If you are using something like Daggers or War Hammers then Kai isn't even worth activating the ability, since it would only add 1.5 damage per hit.
I'm just saying that Kai by itself is by no means an exciting ability and by no means something to dual class for. When you compare it to Rage it's not even close to as good. Even for a Fighter/Thief using a Staff it's only going to add 3 damage on average, but having the guarantee of max is nice, so maybe it's worth it there.
Granted, it does probably add more damage than Rage when enemies are held, and thus everything hits and THAC0 doesn't matter, but who cares about this, since in those situations it's almost irrelevant anyway?
I guess my point is, the only REAL advantage a Kensai has is the +1/+1 per 3 levels. Kai is a novelty that doesn't really make much difference.
On the other hand, a Berserker's ability is game changing and in many situations will actually add MORE damage than Kai!
So in terms of dual classing, Berserkers are hands down better than Kensai, because the Berserker basically get's all of their advantages up front, at level 1, whereas the Kensia doesn't really get its advantage until late in the game, in the 18+ level range, well beyond reasonable dualing.
The Berzerker is basically as strong at it will ever be at level 1, whereas the Kensai builds slowly and steadily over time, getting stronger and stronger and stronger as it goes.
When you take gear into consideration a Kensai, even at level 13, has hardly any, if any, offensive advantage over a Berzerker, so dualing to a Kensai for offensive advantage doesn't really make sense, and defensively the choice is obvious.
Kensai to mage was really, really great in pre-ToB SoA, but its awful in BG1, and generally rage is more useful than the kensai bonus' until pretty high level. Kai uses your aura up for a round too, so its hard to mix with your own short buffs like WW or Timestop.
Dualling at 9 imho for kensage is just terrible when you remember how piddly your THAC0 will be in most of SoA and all of ToB. Honestly, kensais aren't as great as they sound due to gear limitations until quite high level.
So as a comparison, a Berserker (assuming all attacks hit) deals a constant +20 damage per APR for the duration of Rage. This means that at 5 APR they are dealing an additional 100 damage. (For comparison Kai would give around 40 to 50 additional damage (depending on the weapon).
Keep in mind that at lower levels, when you are NOT likely to hit every time, the +2 THAC0 of Rage means that the advantage of Rage over Kai is even greater.
However the damage from Rage comes over a longer period, while the Kia damage is more concentrated, which is either good, or bad depending on if you can take advantage of it.
But also keep in mind that this is comparing ONLY the damage benefits of the two abilities, and not even taking into accounts the many other benefits of Rage that Kai doesn't have.
always preferred dualclass combos that can be contained inside BG1+Legends of the Swordcoast.
and the only kensai builds i make are kensai 9/ mage x builds, its actually quite amazing how powerful that combination is, especially if you are using the throwing daggers like boomerang and firetooth, i've never had complaints, and i've always been satisfied with that combo
so in retrospect never used kai in melee, but for range, it is definitely pretty decent
Just on the comparison with the berserker, rage does more damage over 10 rounds - if you're comparing against a single kai. However, you can fit a number of kais into 10 rounds ...
Also, throwing daggers have good RoF and str for good meausre. Really nice.
Unfortunately, both ogre form and Iron Golem form only have 1 attack per round and enjoy no THAC0 bonuses, so they will not always be optimal. But a Kensai/Thief with Use Any Item can cast these spells via scrolls and get the maximum damage with backstabs. If you're a level 7 Kensai before dualing to thief and use Kai, ogre form will deal 136 damage on a backstab, Iron Golem form will deal 222 damage, and the Black Blade of Disaster will deal 180+ damage.
Cleric/thieves with Use Any Item can do the same thing using Righteous Magic, and Blades can do the same thing using Offensive Spin.
Still, Berserker generally remains "better" at everything, but honestly I'm not sure a Kensai/Mage is even better than a vanilla Fighter/Mage.
The passive Kensai bonuses when dualing at level 9 don't match what you lose out from due to armor losses. You literally can get more +hit and damage from helms and bracers. The benefits of Kai are minimal except, as stated a few rare situations, and I don't think that what you lose out on from not having access to Helms, Bracers or Robes is worth it.
I'd be willing to bet that most Kensai/Mages would actually have dealt more damage over the course of a game as straight Fighter/Mages. Of course it doesn't really matter because the build is so OP that even if it's sub-optimal it's still more than powerful enough, but I'm just saying that Kensai/Mage is really not all it's cracked up to be from a power gaming perspective (However from a role playing perspective it has certain appeal IMO).
Is it good? Yes. Is it actually better than plain Fighter/Mage? I'm not so sure. I think a more solid argument can be made in favor of Kensai/Thief. Clearly Kensai/Thief is better than Fighter/Thief because you don't actually lose out on anything and I think Kai>Backstab is a meaningful advantage.
I think the duration of Kai should be doubled to make it really meaningfully good.
Not that this is really needed, but I think it would be cool if Kensai also had the advantage of not suffering the -2 penalty on melee weapons they are not proficient in. (Basically they would be naturally proficient in all melee weapons, but without getting free pips.) This isn't a huge benefit and mostly only helps at low levels, but it would be a benefit at low levels when dealing with resistant mobs, and IMO it fits with the theme of the class.