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Dragonspear Castle: Crusader Fight in Basement ** SPOILERS**

UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,907
After confronting Hephernaan at the altar, killing the mages and injuring him enough for him to run away (with the promise of getting reinforcements), things are going nuts.
I can't remember exactly but I think I may have killed him there in a previous runthrough (don't quote me on that)

I'm getting Arkanis level fighters (one hit you're dead) named characters (I think there's some kind of mage/monk) and lots of mages ect.

Thing is, I've played through this before, pretty sure at the same level (insane) and managed quite comfortably really.
But this playthrough it feels like I shouldn't even be trying to fight. All the NPC are telling me to get out "NOW", don't remember that happening before.

I've released the ghost Daeros (which I presume you are meant to do), which means there's no way past all the crusaders turning up anyway.

Any guide/reasons to why this fight has changed so dramatically?
I havent updated the game since I bought it.

tbone1

Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,707
    edited December 2016
    Have you changed the difficulty setting at all? (compared to your previous playthrough)

  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,181
    Named characters only show up on insane, so chances are you did play on a lower difficulty before?
    Party members always tell to get out asap, it doesn't depend on difficulty.

    ThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,907
    OK, so now I'm feeling a bit stupid, sorry.

    Just replayed it and it seems the secret is to kill Hephanaan really fast. Thought give it a go, one more time, as you do.
    Whereas before I was leaving a bunch of skellies to deal with them in the altar room, and keep everybody else focused on what was coming through the door or down the hallway.

    This time went in mob handed, finished Heph fast and then left the skellies to finish off the other mages.
    Completely different fight, the same as I remembered.
    Simply lots of webs/grease and pick them off at your leisure (plus a ton of fireballs/cloudkill).
    Nobody got close.

    But eventhough, I don't think it was my imagnation. While Heph was still up and about, even the same tactics weren't really killing people. And if they got to you, you couldn't fight them, one hit instakills, people being chunked ect. That's why it reminded me of Arkanis in the Shadowthieves. I gave it a good try before starting this thread, an hour or so and although I'm no expert, I'm not that bad.

    Thanks for the answers though, the only thing I can recommend is to try it the wrong way and see what turns up. There was definitely a monk surronded by a fireshield at one point.
    Never saw that before, didn't when I finished it this time and everything was dead.
    And I was playing insane before, odd.

  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 605
    I've only played on core so far, I might try higher difficulties on my next playthrough of SoD.

    It's hard to resist cloudkill+web though...:S

  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 782
    It was crazy and I ended up with only Charname surviving, but Cloudkill was indeed MVP in that battle. Stacking fire resistance also helps considerably because Hephernaan loves to spam Flamestrike and the monks are Sun Soul Monks -- meaning Sun Soulray and Greater Sun (the Fireshield effect you experienced).

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,907
    Kurona said:

    It was crazy and I ended up with only Charname surviving, but Cloudkill was indeed MVP in that battle. Stacking fire resistance also helps considerably because Hephernaan loves to spam Flamestrike and the monks are Sun Soul Monks -- meaning Sun Soulray and Greater Sun (the Fireshield effect you experienced).

    So you had the same experience?
    I thought the game had been taken over by Cyric or some other deity out to get me.

    So very strange, do the game one way and nothing really gives you much trouble, do it another way and Charname/NPC are getting insta-chunked.

    My charname has AC-7, THACO -2, yet wasn't able to kill much and could hardly take a hit without dying. And is pretty well protected from fire anyway but I suppose I could up that a bit.

    Makes me want to re do the fight in that way now I know it is what the game means you to do.



  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 1,689
    I am playing core level. I have defeated Hephernaan and his extra troops.
    Am I now supposed to fight my way out?
    Complete lack of experience here.

    JuliusBorisov
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,241
    If you tell the door warden to bar the entrance on the way out, no one in the caves will go hostile as you leave. Otherwise, yes, you will have to fight your way out.

    JuliusBorisovWise_GrimwaldRaduziel
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 3,217
    edited January 31
    I know what you are talking about @UnderstandMouseMagic. Took many tries on my first playthrough on insane to manage that onslaught of names enemies that come in the second wave after killing/chasing away Heph and those new guys join the fray. Even the unnamed warriors seem to come with fullplate and high STR/low THAC0, so it takes alot of spell slots just to kill them.

    I ended up using my CHARNAME, a F/T with pure stealth, standing invisible in the doorway at the bottom right with all my character behind thus blocking the entrance so that I could throw out cloudkills and other AoEs into the room behind him. It was a really cheesy way to do it, but it worked. Invis potions and sanctuary works as well, but last less long than a 200+ stealth character. Be wary though because there will be enemies spawning inside that room as well (with the elevator), but what I did was to rush in to trigger the conversation with Heph etc, then try to get a few attacks in quickly on the three mages there before rushing back out and positioning my guy in the doorway.

    I don't even remember, but I think it took well over 20 tries to manage to kill them all. I usually ended up not being able to kill them all before my potions and spells ran out with the team I had and since many of the characters are quite useless in this fight (Safana, Glint) it was with a gimped team setup.

    EDIT: The fight on the way out is much easier. I took out the entire area with a single f/t, backstabbing everything. There's a few clerics and a mage or two IIRC, but it's mostly just rabble in small groups you can kite kill. My second playthrough I just slaughtered everyone on the way in since it's just the easier way and all crusaders are evil bastards who deserve death anyways. No need to talk to anyone :) Just Judge Dredd your way through it all, hehe.. Judge. Jury. Executioner.

    EDIT 2: You could Judge Judy your way through there as well, but I think that only works with Jesters :P Getting them all to fight eachother and tear eachother apart.

    JuliusBorisovbleusteel
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,907
    @Skatan

    It's ages since I played SOD, this thread is actually my last playthrough.

    I think what I was getting at was that if you don't kill/get rid of Hephanaan, if you leave him alive but being occupied with skeletons summons, the fight goes nuts. Far more than is "normal".

    Not just with who turns up, but the damage they are instantly inflicting.

    If I was more invested/interested in SOD I'd like to test that. As it was at the time, I quicksaved and never looked back.

    But it would be good to get an answer to whether the fight is affected by whether Hephanaan is still present/alive.

    Do the waves of enemies ever stop if you haven't dealt with Hephanaan would be the first question.
    Do the enemies have increased stats for insta chunking if you haven't dealt with Hephanaan.

    The difference between the way the fight went depending on how you approached it was really noticable.


    Wise_Grimwald
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,241
    I know that the fight is definetly influenced by the difficulty level. On normal, you only get one wave of normal enemies. With the number of waves increasing with difficulty until, I believe, infinite spawning enemies on insane. The appearance of enemies is on a timer that starts when Hephernaan leaves. At least in all my runs, nothing extra showed up until he was forced to retreat.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 15,536
    Not infinite. You can kill them all, even on Insane and LoB :)

    ThacoBellWise_Grimwald
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 3,217
    ^- This. As mentioned, it took me 20 tries but I finally managed to do it. In my last solo run I didn't try it though since I am sure I would never be able to make it alone. I only managed to do it by cheesing the hell out of that invisible-blocking "exploit".

    Wise_GrimwaldJuliusBorisov
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,181
    Triggering Heph dialog, either by spying on him in the room or by having him caught you in the hall, sets the basement hostile.
    If you play on Hard+, then a minute later or after killing at least ten crusaders, whichever comes first, four reinforcement groups (a mage and four elites) teleport in with 15 seconds delay between each other. After the last group is spawned, the insane reinforcement becomes possible.
    If you play on Insane, then 30 seconds later or after killing at least 15 fresh reinforcement crusaders, whichever comes first, the 5th mage/elite group and a party of seven uniques join the fray.
    If you reduce Heph to 50% HP, he teleports out. Otherwise his presence doesn't affect the reinforcements in any way.

    SkatanThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 3,217
    Ardanis said:

    Triggering Heph dialog, either by spying on him in the room or by having him caught you in the hall, sets the basement hostile.
    If you play on Hard+, then a minute later or after killing at least ten crusaders, whichever comes first, four reinforcement groups (a mage and four elites) teleport in with 15 seconds delay between each other. After the last group is spawned, the insane reinforcement becomes possible.
    If you play on Insane, then 30 seconds later or after killing at least 15 fresh reinforcement crusaders, whichever comes first, the 5th mage/elite group and a party of seven uniques join the fray.
    If you reduce Heph to 50% HP, he teleports out. Otherwise his presence doesn't affect the reinforcements in any way.
    Holy moly! I had no idea it was THAT many! Thanks for the clarification.

    ArdanisJuliusBorisovWise_Grimwald
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 1,689
    edited February 1

    Thanks for all the input.

    When I posted I had already defeated the area where Hephanaan was defeated. Then Dynaheir cast improved invisibility on as many as she could and invisibility on the rest. We got out without further fighting.

    It was then time to return to the coalition camp.
    I have previously gone through SoD, but it was COMPLETELY different this time. However the rest would be off-topic.

    @JuliusBorisov From your icon, I take it that you are the person who has been giving me so many problems this time. :D

    Post edited by Wise_Grimwald on
    JuliusBorisov
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