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Would you like to have "ceiling" for basic Tilesets in NWN: EE?

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  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    With 84% of users voting in this poll for "Yes", the suggestion deserves - at least - an Input card:

    https://trello.com/c/5y5SXG2h/134-add-an-option-to-have-indoor-ceilings
    HunterRayder93Proont
  • HunterRayder93HunterRayder93 Member Posts: 266

    With 84% of users voting in this poll for "Yes", the suggestion deserves - at least - an Input card:

    https://trello.com/c/5y5SXG2h/134-add-an-option-to-have-indoor-ceilings

    Applause :blush: I thank you for the consideration, I think this feature really deserves a card imput.
    JuliusBorisov
  • HunterRayder93HunterRayder93 Member Posts: 266
    edited January 2018
    so @Proleric to the ideology the new players "infect" the development of NWN: EE with ideas that break the compatibility ruining "your" modules and those of other people ... but then tell me my little boy, why ...people like @Andarian modder of Sanctum of the Archmage: Enhanced Edition and @Savant1974 of Aielund Saga: Enhanced Edition, are you making changes you have modules? not because the first time they tested the modules in NWN: EE were not compatible they were not, but they are making changes using the new scripts to "improve" their content and new graphic options to make their universes more intriguing, and clear that on many things some modd year had some conflicts but it is normal this depends on the storage limit of NWN, but apart from them I have not seen other people or modders "old guard" of NWN, post its modules showing the changes you make with the EE, why? I think because they are perhaps too proud of their work thinking that as they are well and that any change you make to the game and the kind "sacrilege! breaks my game ... my texture!", I think that in addition to @Shadooow you, Savat and Andarian of NWValut people there is not much visibility ... it seems cone if the community of NWN is closed in a pore world apart, in which that comes from outside they do not enter and already excluded, because the new and innovative things are evil, and that is anti-progressive because if you are tied back to the past and do not improve as we hope to improve NWN: EE. so just whine and try to be "all open" to ideas and changes.
  • AndarianAndarian Member Posts: 185
    @HunterRayder93 : Please do not presume to speak for me. For the record, I agree with @Proleric’s remarks here.
    Sylvus_MoonbowZwerkulesdTd
  • raz651raz651 Member Posts: 175
    Ceilings would be great. But if the monsters can chase you from area to area, such as the dragon. There needs to be a way for a script to check and see if such a large creature comes into the area so the ceilings can be turned off.

    This would also be true if we get scaling for characters, creatures and objects. The turning off and on of the ceilings needs to be done by scripts. If it is done through scripts then old modules will not be broken and the best way to opt into using the ceilings. (this is just my idea of how to handle it, if it can be done that is)
  • AndarianAndarian Member Posts: 185
    edited January 2018
    raz651 said:

    Ceilings would be great. But if the monsters can chase you from area to area, such as the dragon. There needs to be a way for a script to check and see if such a large creature comes into the area so the ceilings can be turned off.

    This would also be true if we get scaling for characters, creatures and objects. The turning off and on of the ceilings needs to be done by scripts. If it is done through scripts then old modules will not be broken and the best way to opt into using the ceilings. (this is just my idea of how to handle it, if it can be done that is)

    I don’t see how any of that would be backward compatible.

    How do I change my vote on this poll? I didn’t realize it was proposing a non-backward compatible retro-fit of existing Tilesets. Or am I missing something?
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 303
    shadguy said:

    If we can turn them off with a setting on a given area, then I don't mind; otherwise, I'd prefer not.

    We have outdoor areas built using things like the caves & mines tileset. Built-in ceilings tend to limit some of the tilesets from doing stuff like that.

    I definitely agree with this. If adding an area switch isn't possible for Beamdog to do, I would definitely switch to No if I could.
    AndariandTd
  • HunterRayder93HunterRayder93 Member Posts: 266
    Andarian said:

    @HunterRayder93 : Please do not presume to speak for me. For the record, I agree with @Proleric’s remarks here.

    no, my wanted to be an example to make understand that modder like tea and Savat, make changes to make changes in EE.i was not talking for you mine was just a reference (not a talk about other people),
    Andarian said:

    raz651 said:

    Ceilings would be great. But if the monsters can chase you from area to area, such as the dragon. There needs to be a way for a script to check and see if such a large creature comes into the area so the ceilings can be turned off.

    This would also be true if we get scaling for characters, creatures and objects. The turning off and on of the ceilings needs to be done by scripts. If it is done through scripts then old modules will not be broken and the best way to opt into using the ceilings. (this is just my idea of how to handle it, if it can be done that is)

    I don’t see how any of that would be backward compatible.

    How do I change my vote on this poll? I didn’t realize it was proposing a non-backward compatible retro-fit of existing Tilesets. Or am I missing something?
    actually with the changes to the scripts to change the size of a creature this should not be a problem there..and we are a little more open, in any case you have confused yourself with this judgment of @raz651 but I think that here is a bit of a probelma enerale ... is not reflected before writing and then you immediately think "No no no this is not good, break my form, scio scio scio" here ... I think this and the general thought ... on the other hand, if you stop for a moment, reflect and try to create a meaningful discourse, then you can find a meeting point.
    Andarian said:

    already the fact that most of the existing mods in NWValut is not compatible with NWN: EE makes you already understand that ... by force of things every single mod (those not compatible) must be updated, so from that point of view for me BD has partly failed on the compatibility side, so do not come to tell stories and fantasies about "BD must maintain compatibility" because this does not it's true, compatibility or not BD will have to break something to make the game better.

    Every word of that is absolutely false.
    sorry rifelttiun moment if you think many old modd that are never astatine updated etc..oppure that exploited the CPP those modd or Hack that are already broken for me because the old CPP corrected things that were partially adjusted in previous version of Head-Start quidni for me those modules are already incompatible unless the modder wants it or not and is not too proud to change it making it compatible with EE.
  • NeverwinterWightsNeverwinterWights Member Posts: 339
    Shadooow said:


    Imo, if ceilings are added, they need to be high enough to fully display biggest vanilla dragon.

    Ah but this is part of the issue and the reason for discussion. What if someone thinks the ceilings should be 3 dragons high? Or even higher in some huge underground dwarven city. Maybe someone else thinks they should be only high enough to fit a half orc character. Maybe it completely depends on what a builder has envisioned for a particular area. Could need to be higher or lower. There is also the problem of huge sprawling empty looking ceilings that go on for miles (I tried the haks too) and look worse than having no ceiling. How do we handle all of this?
    I really do like some of the ceilings and they could be a nice feature. But just so long as you have a simple check box in each area so builders can turn then on or off.
    ProlericdTd
  • RifkinRifkin Member Posts: 141
    Backwards compatibility is king, but I don't see why this can't be a default: opted out, but available opt-in feature.

    Area properties: Show Ceiling, or better yet, have it take the place of Skyboxes (as I've already previously mentioned), meaning that no old modules are ever broken with this.

    If the old modules want to utilize new ceilings, they can always be opened up, and have the skyboxes changed to 'ceiling'
  • thirdmousethirdmouse Member Posts: 67
    edited February 2018
    New tilesets yes (where applicable), old tilesets no :) (If there is some manner of default-off builder switch to display or not, then sure, though I'd personally rather they tackled the "hard" stuff... Builder-control switches are a different topic altogether but one worth talking about and voting on, so in that sense if we get more suggestions that module-builders only want if such toggles exist, it may encourage development in that direction :P)
    Andarian
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member, Moderator Posts: 1,248
    edited February 2018
    Rifkin said:

    Backwards compatibility is king, but I don't see why this can't be a default: opted out, but available opt-in feature.

    That's the thing.

    Almost every feature request in this forum has some form of compromise ending in "Well lets just make this a toggle" in which case... Why is development time and money being put into a feature only some people will use some of the time?

    I would rather have one difficult to add feature that everyone benefits from rather than 3 half cocked features people can toggle off.
    Andarian
  • RifkinRifkin Member Posts: 141

    Rifkin said:

    Backwards compatibility is king, but I don't see why this can't be a default: opted out, but available opt-in feature.

    That's the thing.

    Almost every feature request in this forum has some form of compromise ending in "Well lets just make this a toggle" in which case... Why is development time and money being put into a feature only some people will use some of the time?

    I would rather have one difficult to add feature that everyone benefits from rather than 3 half cocked features people can toggle off.
    Which is a perfectly fine argument. Then it comes down to considerations of how hard this is to implement, and what the adoption rate of it is.

    I for one, would definitely use ceilings given the option, but if it's very difficult to add, then I agree that it is probably not worth it.
    voidofopinion
  • AndarianAndarian Member Posts: 185
    edited February 2018

    Almost every feature request in this forum has some form of compromise ending in "Well lets just make this a toggle" in which case... Why is development time and money being put into a feature only some people will use some of the time?

    I would rather have one difficult to add feature that everyone benefits from rather than 3 half cocked features people can toggle off.

    This. Thank you.

    I have limited time to post on the forums this week, but I just want to say that I am very much opposed to proposals like this. I'm supporting NWN:EE precisely because I understood that Beamdog's vision was not to "blow up" existing content in this way.
    Post edited by Andarian on
    ZwerkulesdTd
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 303
    I'm not really sure how adding ceilings you can toggle on and off or even other features on a whim is "blowing up" existing content. In my eyes, its not so much as a "half cocked" feature as much as it is "giving people options," which seems like a nice fit in a game that already gives you lots of options in normal play. If it takes away from the development of something else that's more important then obviously they should be managing their time better, but its inclusion would be a nice quality of life feature. As I said above, though, if they don't implement it as opt-in I'm against it due to reasons others have stated.
  • raz651raz651 Member Posts: 175

    Shadooow said:


    Imo, if ceilings are added, they need to be high enough to fully display biggest vanilla dragon.

    Ah but this is part of the issue and the reason for discussion. What if someone thinks the ceilings should be 3 dragons high? Or even higher in some huge underground dwarven city. Maybe someone else thinks they should be only high enough to fit a half orc character. Maybe it completely depends on what a builder has envisioned for a particular area. Could need to be higher or lower. There is also the problem of huge sprawling empty looking ceilings that go on for miles (I tried the haks too) and look worse than having no ceiling. How do we handle all of this?
    I really do like some of the ceilings and they could be a nice feature. But just so long as you have a simple check box in each area so builders can turn then on or off.
    This interest me. I would like to see a selection for different ceiling heights, this would give buildings, caves and dungeons a variety of different over all feeling. Ceiling height to be chosen by area or scripted by position. It could give that illusion of walking into a large cavern.

    Also if we could get a character crouch we can have areas only accessible by small or crouching characters. :)
    HunterRayder93Proont
  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331

    (...) why ...people like @Andarian modder of Sanctum of the Archmage: Enhanced Edition and @Savant1974 of Aielund Saga: Enhanced Edition, are you making changes you have modules? (...)

    I can't speak for anyone but myself, but the reason I recently updated one of my mods is that it contained bugs (and still does, for that matter, but not game-breaking ones hopefully) and it used older rules (NWN ca. 1.62 or something). I didn't update the mod BECAUSE of the EE, I updated the mod because I wanted to fix some game-breaking bugs and update the rules to 1.69 and make it playable with NWN Diamond Edition (1.69) - that it happens to be perfectly playable in the EE also is just a bonus. And the reason it does work is because Beamdog (so far) only has introduced new visual options and new scripting features in EE (which I can't use in the DE, but further development using the EE will allow it, though the mod THEN won't be playable in DE anymore, since those features don't exist there...), but not, say, changed tilesets or fundamentally altered the game mechanics in another way.

    And now the short version: mods created with "old" (non-EE) toolsets will generally be playable in the EE regardless. Mods created in the EE however, using new features, will most generally NOT be playable in "old" NWN.

    I welcome ceilings and other improvements, but they must be implemented thoughtfully - if they DO break old modules, it's probably best not to implement them. However, there are ways to do this properly - e.g. if this option by default is off, then there are no ceilings. If the builder enables them (generally by ticking a box in the area properties) then that area has ceilings, though it won't break older modules that were built with no ceiling in mind (i.e. like those that use the Underdark tileset for exterior areas).

    AndarianSavant1974
  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331
    edited February 2018
    Andarian said:

    already the fact that most of the existing mods in NWValut is not compatible with NWN: EE makes you already understand that ... by force of things every single mod (those not compatible) must be updated, so from that point of view for me BD has partly failed on the compatibility side, so do not come to tell stories and fantasies about "BD must maintain compatibility" because this does not it's true, compatibility or not BD will have to break something to make the game better.

    Every word of that is absolutely false.
    I agree with @Andarian here. I think you will find that MOST mods on the NWVault for NWN1 actually DO work fine with the EE (though there may be graphical glitches with older stuff that e.g. use the pre-1.66 female heads, like my Eryndlyn mod did). However, you have to install them using the rules that come with the EE, which means that the mods go to the modules folder in \mydocs, not the install directory. Same goes for haks etc. Naturally, if you put things in the wrong places, they won't work.
    AndariandTd
  • While I personally prefer tilesets with ceilings, I don't think they should be something that is included with the core game. The community has already created ceilings for just about every one of the BioWare tilesets and there are numerous custom tilesets that include ceilings.

    From a content creator and builder's perspective, if I need a ceiling for an area I'll just modify the tile myself.

    As for fading, I can see where having an option to just have ceilings turned off might be a good thing for players. Right now I have this, imho, wonderful looking tavern group that has a ceiling with beams. From the top down, the ceiling is invisible, but the beams and wall tops remain. Thus, it can be a little hard to navigate from that perspective.
    AndarianZwerkules
  • AndarianAndarian Member Posts: 185
    How can I change my vote on this poll? Mine should be counted as a no, not a yes.
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,481
    Just voted no to this half baked idea. @Andarian try pm'ing @JuliusBorisov abou changing your vote.

    TR
    Andarian
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 303
    edited February 2018
    @Andarian The textureless part of an object is normally completely transparent, meaning ceilings can't block the camera unless they clutter it with useless details. Assuming they do, I understand your concerns, which is why I've been asking for it to be opt-in on an area by area basis - as in, you have to turn it on manually - and if Beamdog wasn't willing to add it this way I'd be opposed to this. Unless I've misunderstood something, I think we're actually in agreement here, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.
    dTd
  • HunterRayder93HunterRayder93 Member Posts: 266
    Guys...just take for example NWN2 there are ceilings in the Tileset and disappear when playing in 3rd person and appear when playing in the 1st person, then the fact of the size of the creatures is not a problem if they add a script to decrease or enlarge models of NPCs, creatures etc ... (I do not remember if it was already put) so it should not be a problem ... and of course ... a cave with the blue sky for example breaks a bit immersive, but having the Celling comuqnue repeat, could open the doors to several new options, make the walls streaked with paintings, trophies of tapestries ... in short ... makes the environments less "in heaven".

    But I agree with the idea in part to use an on-off option to hide Ceiling in Tileset in such a way that compatibility does not break, then obviously it is up to the modders to decide whether or not to put Ceiling in determining internal areas .
    raz651
  • mlkent22mlkent22 Member Posts: 41
    Some good points all around. I suggest as a compromise that all the original indoor tilesets be redone with ceilings and given new resrefs so that we get the choice to use the new without disrupting the old. This has been done before by the CEP- and others to avoid the it will break existing content problem that does indeed show up when changing the basic game.
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