A question/discussion on character model emitters and modernization of their look
Eurgiga
Member Posts: 8
Originally this was meant as a reply to:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68950/nwn-ee-new-character-models-feedback-impressions-ideas-the-future
However, the post grew rather long and began to cover ground I feel is a bit outside the original topic, so I'm separating this into a new thread. I apologize in advance if any of my terms are confusing or if I make a small error in fact here and there, I basically taught myself everything I know about this so I may make a couple of mistakes. This also partly rehashes another post I've made, so apologies to those who might be sitting through a bit of this twice.
After giving the cited thread in the above discussion (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68947/question-about-graphic-updates-aribeth-and-the-plans-for-future) a quick read, I was glad to see this:
Know how your character by default looks like a wooden-jointed mannequin? How every piece of you is its own little self-contained part and your toon is just those parts with some toothpicks in between? Those are emitter nodes which are being set to display a certain model- say, left bicep, right thigh, pelvis, so on. I'm going to call these "Type A" emitters. The robe slot, of all emitters, is probably the most useful. I'll call it a "Type B".
Every time your character moves, what is happening is your emitters are moving in respect to their "parent" emitter in a pre-rendered animation, and so the static play-doh ball models move along with them. These animations are respected by Type A emitters individually- that is, each play-doh part can only see its own part of the animation. Type B, though, is basically a whole other creature overlaid on top of you and as such you can create 'bones' that can also track these animations either primarily or in sequence. Type B can see every bone in the model (the bones are usually invisible by the way) and make the shapes comprising the model influenced by multiple bones at once. This allows the robe to bend and stretch in a way that looks far, far more natural than the Mister Potato Character Type A emitter collage:
(end sparknotes)
What I hope the original discussion means is that we might be getting more Type B emitters. I'd like every body part to be a Type B, ideally. If we can work that sort of magic with one slot, imagine what we can do with a dozen or more. The new models on display are very pretty, but this is the alteration that would really let us modelers do some insane and awesome things.
Except helmets.
So... yeah, more Sparknotes.
Weapons are magical. Like, seriously, NWN weapons are the most modern thing in the game in terms of composition, animation, everything. They're what the game engine calls "ModelType 2". MT2 is basically three individual creatures with skinmesh that can pick and choose how they respond to animations. "What can you do with that?" I hear you ask. Well, for starters you could have a pair of snapping kamas that bite when you attack, snap open when you block or dodge, and chew the air when you're idle:
Or a beating heart:
Helmets, on the other hand, lie on the other end of the spectrum: They are static and can't respect bones or animations. They're what's known by the game as ModelType 1, and are in fact hardcoded to only use MT1. Making these switchable to MT2 and opening up other emitters (say, the accessory slots like belt, boots, rings) as MT2s with the ability to have their own three part models will let us start accessorizing like mad. If on top of that they can let these new MT2 nodes obscure other models like robes do (via a 2da setting in parts_robe.2da) it would let those accessories be awesome- imagine a pair of gloves that turns your hands into lightning, or a writhing tentacle, so on.
So, with all that in mind, I suppose I'm asking if my hope is correct: That player character models will be getting their emitters upgraded to Type B/MT2, or at least getting more of those emitters. What would the logistics of doing this be? Is it feasible? Would it help if I donated my firstborn?
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68950/nwn-ee-new-character-models-feedback-impressions-ideas-the-future
However, the post grew rather long and began to cover ground I feel is a bit outside the original topic, so I'm separating this into a new thread. I apologize in advance if any of my terms are confusing or if I make a small error in fact here and there, I basically taught myself everything I know about this so I may make a couple of mistakes. This also partly rehashes another post I've made, so apologies to those who might be sitting through a bit of this twice.
After giving the cited thread in the above discussion (https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/68947/question-about-graphic-updates-aribeth-and-the-plans-for-future) a quick read, I was glad to see this:
For those uninitiated to how your player character is composed, my Sparknotes version of the topic:ShadowM said:... getting skinmesh to work with armor switch out is going to be a pain and that why I / other suggested and glad they are taking on the task...
Know how your character by default looks like a wooden-jointed mannequin? How every piece of you is its own little self-contained part and your toon is just those parts with some toothpicks in between? Those are emitter nodes which are being set to display a certain model- say, left bicep, right thigh, pelvis, so on. I'm going to call these "Type A" emitters. The robe slot, of all emitters, is probably the most useful. I'll call it a "Type B".
Every time your character moves, what is happening is your emitters are moving in respect to their "parent" emitter in a pre-rendered animation, and so the static play-doh ball models move along with them. These animations are respected by Type A emitters individually- that is, each play-doh part can only see its own part of the animation. Type B, though, is basically a whole other creature overlaid on top of you and as such you can create 'bones' that can also track these animations either primarily or in sequence. Type B can see every bone in the model (the bones are usually invisible by the way) and make the shapes comprising the model influenced by multiple bones at once. This allows the robe to bend and stretch in a way that looks far, far more natural than the Mister Potato Character Type A emitter collage:
(end sparknotes)
What I hope the original discussion means is that we might be getting more Type B emitters. I'd like every body part to be a Type B, ideally. If we can work that sort of magic with one slot, imagine what we can do with a dozen or more. The new models on display are very pretty, but this is the alteration that would really let us modelers do some insane and awesome things.
Except helmets.
So... yeah, more Sparknotes.
Weapons are magical. Like, seriously, NWN weapons are the most modern thing in the game in terms of composition, animation, everything. They're what the game engine calls "ModelType 2". MT2 is basically three individual creatures with skinmesh that can pick and choose how they respond to animations. "What can you do with that?" I hear you ask. Well, for starters you could have a pair of snapping kamas that bite when you attack, snap open when you block or dodge, and chew the air when you're idle:
Or a beating heart:
Helmets, on the other hand, lie on the other end of the spectrum: They are static and can't respect bones or animations. They're what's known by the game as ModelType 1, and are in fact hardcoded to only use MT1. Making these switchable to MT2 and opening up other emitters (say, the accessory slots like belt, boots, rings) as MT2s with the ability to have their own three part models will let us start accessorizing like mad. If on top of that they can let these new MT2 nodes obscure other models like robes do (via a 2da setting in parts_robe.2da) it would let those accessories be awesome- imagine a pair of gloves that turns your hands into lightning, or a writhing tentacle, so on.
So, with all that in mind, I suppose I'm asking if my hope is correct: That player character models will be getting their emitters upgraded to Type B/MT2, or at least getting more of those emitters. What would the logistics of doing this be? Is it feasible? Would it help if I donated my firstborn?
6
Comments
Keep in mind that individual body parts is where the unrivaled character customization options of NWN comes from. If you have a robe or full body skin mesh you can't even add a skeletal arm or change limb musculature, tattoos and other features, since the robe overrides the individual parts. Also you wont be able to change small parts if you don't want the exact outfit of that specific robe. That being said robes have been in the game for over a decade but many still choose to configure parts individually due to the customization power it provides.
Rather than just making more robes which are useless for customization I think it would be a good idea to find a way to stitch joint seams together. Making ppl choose between either personalizing their characters completely or having a seamless body seems like a bad deal.
I am asking if the existing parts which make up the customizeable character model will be made more like robe slots, or if they could be. This would basically do what your "rather" suggests. In short, we are in agreement on that matter.
However, I am also asking for more slots- accessory slots, for example, which could work like robe slots or weapon slots (not as literal weapons but in the manner of the slots' composition as explained above) and add more customization than the existing system allows while still being backwards-compatible with existing content as well.
Do not fret, this concept will not hamper customizeability at all. Rather, it will drastically enhance it.
I think any system should keep parts as they're very powerful, like real clothes you can style an outfit, a top might also have short sleeves or long sleeves.
For accessories I'm not quite sure what the difference would be over current methods of using sort of vfx type of models. For example like Amethyst Dragon's work or on pw servers like Sinfar where you can attach hair, eyes, ears, makeup, piercings, glasses, hats and many other things all relative to the main node with options to scale, translate, rotate, and recolor.
So you could have a skinmeshed breastplate from set X, Biceps from Y and thighs from Z and so on. A little part of me thinks they said you can do this right now, but I'm not entirely sure that's the case.
It'll depend on how creators create though, if everything remains bundled into one mesh then nothing'll change. The big issue will likely be as FreshLemonBun says, keeping joints closed and avoiding gaping caused by misaligned vertices or differing weights.