@BelgarathMTH: In his marvelous memoir, So Anyway, the British comedy legend John Cleese points out that almost nobody has any idea of what they're talking about. This is very helpful to keep in mind. You can bet a heck of a lot that anyone mentioning just "getting over it" has no idea what they're talking about.
Lack of sensitivity, unfortunately, seems to be the norm, perhaps particularly among men who haunt internet forums. The issue is exacerbated by the fact that many people have great difficulties empathizing or understanding anything they haven't directly experienced themselves. (And I'm not saying that stepping into another person's shoes is easy.)
Anyway, you are correct. It is simply not reasonable to expect Anomen to "get over it" before he is in his forties, at the very least. Whether his "not getting over it" manifests outwardly is a different question altogether.
I have always preferred Anomen as a character compared to most but this dialogue from his CN romance subplot, as much as I hate myself whenever I go through it, pretty much dissolved any remnants of dislike I felt towards him.
Cor: Bah! I always knew you were too much of a pansy to go through with it! I was right to disown you as I did... weak and pathetic, you are, since a boy, even! Anomen: I could have been more, Father, had you cared. I... I always loved you. And I still do. Cor: You...? Anomen: Aye. And still I do. We are so much alike, you and I. More than you will ever know. We... could have been so much more. Anomen: Go, then. Go and tend to your petty schemes; I'll have no more of it. Perhaps one day, if you find some shred of enlightenment... perhaps, then, we'll speak again. Cor: ...aye... perhaps...
I feel what makes Anomen sympathetic for me where characters like Viconia don't is that the game shows how he developed his negative qualities through different perspectives. With Viconia, I've never really felt much sympathy mostly because it's entirely filtered though her toxic mentality, compulsive lying and self-serving memory. Anomen's reasons for his faults feel more genuine because I got to see how he became that way and help him through it, and see him change for the better, for LG-Anomen anyway. Anomen's never struck me to be as arrogant and holier-than-thou as first glance. It's clear that he's actually a person with crippling low-esteem that always feels he has something to prove, and as someone who's dealt with similar feelings I can empathize. I do feel it's a mistake for players to write him off too quickly.
By comparison, I also feel Jan fails as a character because while the game gives him depth it fails to go any further with him beyond his little sidequest. No character development, no mention of it past his epilogue, nothing. It's the main reason I dislike him because he gets a character arc that could have made him interesting for someone like me who doesn't enjoy his gimmick but it's ultimately pointless.
Also, I do feel Minsc actually has depth but it's hard to see. But I think I've gone too far off-topic as it is.
Hey, tell me more about the depth in Minsc! I would love to hear.
As for Jan: I can wholeheartedly understand why somebody wouldn't like him. And I agree that he doesn't develop. However, I happen to have a fondness for precisely the kind of silliness he represents, and I also happen to think he's voiced superbly, so gets my vote nearly every time (although he is not a part of my current playthrough group).
Yes, Anomen has terrible self-esteem, just like Cernd is unable to face up to his adult responsibilities, and both of them react to their interior struggles in the most common way. This is well represented in the game.
Cernd is an interesting topic to bring up and I almost gave him a mention in my little tangent because he actually goes through about as much development as Anomen does but in an entirely different direction. Unlike Anomen, he doesn't really change as a result of his quest but it's not because his development gets dropped entirely as Jan's does. Rather, Cernd actively makes the decision not to own up to his mistakes by giving his child over to the grove essentially refusing to make amends for his decisions regardless of whether or not he acknowledges them or not, and while this is also extremely frustrating for me especially because the player is pretty much railroaded into just accepting it and moving on, it does at least follow a cohesive character arc and so I can't really call it a failure per se. Cernd would be one of my top choices to write a mod that expands upon his character more because of that.
Regarding Jan - I'd have a lot more tolerance for his characterization that doesn't appeal to me if it didn't come at the detriment of what potential he could have. Actually, one of the best things the EE writing brought was the Jan-Hexxat dialogue since it actually melds the two different aspects of Jan in a reasonable way, where he brings up one of his usual long-winded tales but actually puts it in a context that suits the conversation they're having, which actually made it meaningful. That's the type of Jan I'd actually want to read dialogue for rather than hitting the space key repeatedly.
Regarding Minsc - admittedly, I tend to read a little too much into Minsc because I'm heavily biased towards the character, but I see him as the archetype of an ideal superhero, or at least trying to be. I find that highly refreshing because this isn't the type of setting that you'd expect a superhero archetype to fit into, no, this is the universe of brooding heroes like Drizzt or where idealists like Cadderly get pulled into the harsh reality of life. Whether the writers intended it or not, Minsc actually makes it works by virtue of being a simple-minded yet good-natured loon. The Minsc-Mazzy banters I feel portrays it best. Mazzy completely misinterprets Minsc's praise as being backhanded because she is simply not used to being responded to in such a way and ultimately appreciates him for what he is. It's also worth mentioning that Minsc also goes through his fair share of pain - perhaps not as much as some others, but a fair amount, and yet he deals with it in a way that only he could. He mourns a little then channels his grief into righteously-driven vengeance, continues with his superheroing ways, and optionally takes Aerie as his witch in order to not fail again. And he does this all without any input from the PC. Of course, he needs the PC to act as a voice of reason for him because he's too simple-minded to act on his own, but I don't really hold that against him. And he acts as the ultimate pillar of inspiration and moral support for the party by actively complimenting and praising good-aligned party members and praising the PC for doing good deeds to make them feel good about themselves (note that the only other ones who do this is Mazzy and Keldorn, who are basically duty-bound to do so). He never lets anything get him down, make him doubt or give him pause, not even dying and falling to Hell:
Oh, such a glorious death in battle for Minsc and Boo! We were well on our way to the great fields and halls of Rashemen, but we felt you needing us, so we came!
I speak no hyperbole when I say this is by far the best line upon entering Hell out of all the party members in my opinion. He's successfully atoned for his failures. He's got his ideal afterlife waiting for him, and he decides to go back for his friend for what could be his last good fight. Why? Because that's what heroes f---ing do.
I won't say Minsc is by far the absolute best character. I think Keldorn, Jaheira, Imoen and Anomen have more reasonable character arcs and I won't say anyone's wrong for denouncing Minsc for his flaws, but in my opinion Minsc takes what he is and goes the whole way with it, and it works brilliantly. If I were to grade party members on an A-D scale (no lower as I don't think any character is that terrible) he gets a solid B from me.
Edit: Yeah, I know I didn't make any mention of Boo anywhere in this rant, but that's because to be honest, I don't really feel Boo makes that much of an impact on what makes Minsc's character work. It's alright, but it's one of those comic relief aspects that I don't care that much for, though admittedly it makes for some great banters. tl;dr Minsc is great because his simplicity enables a character archetype that normally doesn't work in the FR-verse, and does so in a way that I personally find both effective and endearing.
Only problem I had was how Dorn gets away with all sorts of blatant atrocities, other than that I had no problem.
If this makes you feel better: he *didn't*. Just read his epilogues. Charname did get away with everything though.
"The murder of many doesn't go unseen or unpunished." -Dorn himself, in SOD Although imo that sentence itself is bad writing. It feels like they're trying to add non-exist layers to someone who's supposed to be cliche evil.
I’ll write another essay when I’m not on my phone, but I’m not part of the EE vs. original debate. I think Rassad and Neera’s character arcs are fine while Dorn’s BG2 arc completely dropped the ball. I only wrote all that above because I was asked to share my thoughts and I obliged. I’m not trying to change anyone’s minds here. At most I’m trying to provide a perspective that other people might not be considering.
I always wanted to complain about Dorn's storyline. I could easily write pages about Dorn Il-Khan, about his past, his childhood, his traumas with his family and ex, the goals and reasons of his life, his character development, etc etc etc, because I really *love* this character, so I am willing to dig into *between* the lines for every piece of information. I could be making up things, but to me he is far more than "cliche evil". His whole story arc in BG2 is TERRIBLY written. He gives the impression of a typical blackguard, almost everyone in this thread calls him cliche evil, because that's what he appears to be, had I not wanted a cliche evil romance for my cliche evil charname I'd miss this character at all. It's said that this character lacks layer. His banters are the worst part, where you see him cares for nothing but power and his patron, and you don't even know what makes him so. Problem is, he *did* have a history, which explains *quite a lot*, but that history is scattered in BG1 and SOD and even the Dragon magazine. There's supposed to be a storyline which connects and concludes all these scattered information and tell us who the hell is Dorn Il-Khan, but instead the best part of his mission (aside from killing tons of paladins) is concentrated on dryads, colorful crystals, and fairy dragons. The whole scene is merry as a child's painting book, which itself is not bad, the resurrection gorge is an interesting map to play, but c'mon dudes, when I took *cliche evil* into my party I wasn't expecting fairy dragons holding pink crystals! The whole thing just went off topic! When the final choice between Ur-Gothoz and Azothet is up to Charname, don't make it feel like a random suggestion for dinner after Disney's Park, because that decision is supposed to be a struggle between lawful and chaotic, between power and freedom, and that's the important part of an character. This happens to other EE characters too, like nobody knows why in the realms would Larloch want a vampire to rob Chinese graves for him, or why would said vampire follow his orders. Their quests seems to have nothing to do with their personality. But as I said, they *did* have personalities; it's just you have to romance them first in order to get to know them. Sounds ridiculous right? There's plenty of struggle between power and freedom in Dorn's lovetalks, plenty of hatred toward her own body in Hexxat's lovetalks, I haven't tried but I heard that same thing happens if you romance Neera. One of the problem is, the lovetalks are *separated* from their quests. By the time you suddenly realizes how stressed Dorn is about having a patron bossing him around, you might already have Azothet bounded in the Abyssal Blade. The more important thing is that, for those who aren't playing their romance path, these characters just don't make sense at all. They took an important part out of each character to make up their lovetalks, which made the non-romance paths unacceptable, which made people don't want to initiate a romance at all.
Btw, I went through Rasaad's quests only once. English is not my mother tongue, and I can hardly understand what my mission is or who am I supposed to be fighting, I have the feeling that there's a good story being told, but I just can't comprehend. Which, is totally my fault, though.
@Joan_Daro I think you've hit the nail on the head. Most of the EE content is actually fairly decent, it's just implemented horribly in places. Things like using BG2 style cut-scenes in BG1, romance-gated character development, and a (contract mandated, admittedly) lack of any similar changes to the core game make the new content feel forced and/or tacked on.
@Joan_Daro: Don't give yourself a hard time over the Rasaad question. You write pretty good English for a non-native (English is not my first language, either), and I'm sure the lack of understanding was not your fault.
The English language is my job, at a high level of expertise, and I do not hesitate to say that I know it quite well, going back to Chaucer and all that. The fact is, Rasaad's tale is badly written and may leave you somewhat uncertain as to what has been happening. It is not horribly complicated or completely messed up, but just vague enough to puzzle you in just about the way you described.
@Malicron And they compressed all the .plt files!!! I prefer the original character appearances and used to put all the old plt files in /override, but after a certain version the old files don't work anymore
@xzar_monty Thanks a lot. Perhaps I can try it again sometime
You have to "roleplay" to feel sympathy with a person who has suffered abuse from their parent which you witness?
Eh... yes? Anomen is a grown man, a knight noble, working his own career, and not even living with his father (I think). If their exchange that you witness constitutes abuse, then it really is a 1st world problem.
As a survivor of an emotionally abusive narcissistic parent, I can tell you that I still carry the scars of that at age 52, and it informs and influences everything about me. She died a few years ago, and I still get angry and upset when I think about her. So I do my best not to think about her.
Anyway, the point is that I can sympathize with Anomen. And he's probably only in his 20's and not even had much time to start trying to recover emotionally and win his independence. Then his sister is murdered. His father still has a huge influence in his life.
I'm a little surprised at the lack of sensitivity being shown suddenly in this thread to survivors of emotional abuse. The implication that an abused child should just "get over it" as soon as he or she is over 21 is abhorrent to me.
I have no reason to doubt what you said, but the point was that taking the display of sensitivity for granted is quite literally a 1st world privilege. If I started to complain to my friends about troubled childhood, I'd get funny looks in return. I am aware that the majority of people here are from Europe/NA, though, so I don't hold my breath expecting this viewpoint to be understood for what it is, because
The issue is exacerbated by the fact that many people have great difficulties empathizing or understanding anything they haven't directly experienced themselves.
@Ardanis: It is most certainly a 1st world privilege, and a very recent one at that, too.
I don't know where you're from, but it's probably still a fact that there are more places in the world where the regular beating of children, for instance, is a given, than there are places where it's frowned upon or even outlawed (like in my country). These differences are indeed staggering.
You have to "roleplay" to feel sympathy with a person who has suffered abuse from their parent which you witness?
Eh... yes? Anomen is a grown man, a knight noble, working his own career, and not even living with his father (I think). If their exchange that you witness constitutes abuse, then it really is a 1st world problem.
As a survivor of an emotionally abusive narcissistic parent, I can tell you that I still carry the scars of that at age 52, and it informs and influences everything about me. She died a few years ago, and I still get angry and upset when I think about her. So I do my best not to think about her.
Anyway, the point is that I can sympathize with Anomen. And he's probably only in his 20's and not even had much time to start trying to recover emotionally and win his independence. Then his sister is murdered. His father still has a huge influence in his life.
I'm a little surprised at the lack of sensitivity being shown suddenly in this thread to survivors of emotional abuse. The implication that an abused child should just "get over it" as soon as he or she is over 21 is abhorrent to me.
The problem with Anomen can be in his unpleasant personality - hard to feel sorry for someone so ... well... unpleasant. But also another thing - he is not just a modern guy with quiet life, that can allow himself to be seen as someone sensitive and with a weakness. Anomen is a knight (ok, future knight, but he was a warrior and then become priest in the military order). He is supposed to be a protector, a guardian, someone others can rely upon, someone strong. Inability to overcome (at least for outside) his own childhood problems is like a whole in the wall - what this wall is good for, then?
From the other hand, as much as I dislike Anomen (mostly for his romance, I do think Anomen is a great character) - does he really complain about his problems? With all the mods I am using it's easy to loose the original idea, but I though, all Anomen's problems were shown to us during his quest, he did not whine about it in dialogs. I'd say he keeps strong facade pretty well and DG translated that psychological type very accurately.
@Mirandel Yeah, he never once complains about his hone life, its only until you follow him home taht you learn about it. While I feel bad for him, from an rp standpoint, my charnames don't know the problems he faces, so it doesn't make sense for me to put up with him most of the time.
Regarding Jan, I feel like there is a ton of potential for the character. In a lot of ways he's the perfect example of an illusionist/thief, he is the master of distraction and deceit and his tales are just another tool in his arsenal. We see him use his tales to distract government officials evade the law, make thinly-veiled insults as those he doesn't like, and more. If he had just a few more examples of this kind of method behind his madness i'd say he was one of the best written of the NPC's.
This is apparently what I do now, I just sign in every few months when I have something to say. What can I say, I get worked up when I personally relate to things. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The thing is, you don't actually need to validate your feelings to anyone, and so disliking Anomen for what he does and does not say is perfectly valid. That said, that doesn't really make his problems "first world problems." I began counseling for depression my first year of university and when my father found out he asked, "What do you have to be depressed about? There are millions of people out there who haven't had any of the opportunities you've had and they're the ones who have real problems and a reason to be depressed." There's always going to be someone who has it worse than you, and just because someone has it worse doesn't mean your problems aren't real. Also, part of the reason I was *in* counseling to begin with is my father used to hit me and though he hasn't been physically abusive in years I still flinch every time I have to walk by him when he's in a pet, and to this very day he still says terrible, awful things to me. I deal with my past by making people work for my trust, and I don't resent anyone who doesn't bother. It's my right to hold them at an arm's length just as it's their right to walk away. Anomen deals with his abuse by becoming a massive jerk, and I think it's fine if people aren't willing to look past that. Not everyone is willing to go the extra mile to get to know someone and that's totally fine, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth knowing. And everyone in the world and even in fantasy worlds deals with abuse differently.
Also, I don't even like Anomen. I did when I was younger but I haven't managed to finish a game with him in over ten years. I can't stand him anymore, but I think claiming he's poorly written is unfair.
Btw, I went through Rasaad's quests only once. English is not my mother tongue, and I can hardly understand what my mission is or who am I supposed to be fighting, I have the feeling that there's a good story being told, but I just can't comprehend. Which, is totally my fault, though.
English is my first language, I'm receiving my Bachelor of Arts in Journalism in six days and even I don't get what the hell is going on in Rasaad's BGII quest-line.
I feel like for Rasaad, even though overall his stuff is actually well written, they did do a large info dump with name drops and references that make no sense in that initial conversation. Which puts off a lot of people.
Rasaad is investigating a heretical cult that combines his goddess Selune and the dark goddess Shar, saying they are the same. He wants to stop it, but is forced to use deception (something encouraged by Shar and forbidden by Selune) to make any progress. He is terrified of this because in trying to protect his faith, he is (in his own eyes) betraying his goddess. This is reinforced by his own sect hunting him, believing him turned. The meaty core of Rasaad's questline is inner conflict and how it reflects the very real physical one he is fighting.
Rasaad is investigating a heretical cult that combines his goddess Selune and the dark goddess Shar, saying they are the same. He wants to stop it, but is forced to use deception (something encouraged by Shar and forbidden by Selune) to make any progress. He is terrified of this because in trying to protect his faith, he is (in his own eyes) betraying his goddess. This is reinforced by his own sect hunting him, believing him turned. The meaty core of Rasaad's questline is inner conflict and how it reflects the very real physical one he is fighting.
Ooops, I knew I'd missed something. I thought the heretics were on the right track and in the end it would turn out they were one and the same.
It turns out that the cult is a deception by the Alorogoth to weed out unfaithful Sharrans and drag in some Selunites and kill them as well, as a bonus. Though Charname CAN convince Rasaad to take over as leader of the new cult.
I have no idea if this would eventually legitimize it though. Maybe someone who more about hoe faith and religion works in FR could shed some light.
@ThacoBell Wait WHAT I briefly went through the .dlg files and... I think there's no way you can actually lead a *cult* without having actual godly power behind them? Like Alorgoth's cult is actually supported by Shar but if you convince Rasaad to lead the Truth... Like Alorgoth said, there is no Twofold Goddess, so there's no way it's going to work right???
@Joan_Daro Thats the thing isn't it? I honestly don't know. But the gods of FR are powered by faith right? Theoretically, wouldn't enough sincere worshippers give rise to a deity to match? I realize this may be a poor comparison, but the "Order of the Stick" webcomic pokes fun at the system by having a running joke of a sock puppet becoming a deity because a Bard tricked enough people into worshipping it.
I think it would be more likely that one of the less scrupulous deities would simply take start giving the cultists powers and taking all of that tasty worship-power.
For that matter, if CHARNAME ascended at the end of ToB, they could become the cult's new patron.
But deities have their... portfolios? Isn't that the difference between faiths and cults? What's the domain of this so-called Twofold Goddess? (And what's the difference between the portfolio and domains of a deity?) And in Rasaad's case if someone actually claims to be the patron of the Truth, isn't they stealing worshippers from Shar and Selune, won't they earn the ire of the two goddesses?
Technically, at the time this is taking place, gods can try and usurp each others portfolios, it will just lead to the two gods coming into direct conflict. So it probably wouldn't be a good idea for a newly minted minor god like CHARNAME to try and muscle in on Shar and/or Selune's turf.
Yeah see? This deity stuff is complicated. The Twofold trust could easily fill the space between Shar and Selune. Being two extremes, the Twofold would be a moderate middle ground. They could be the neutral good to Selune's lawful good and Shar's Neutral Evil.
Comments
Lack of sensitivity, unfortunately, seems to be the norm, perhaps particularly among men who haunt internet forums. The issue is exacerbated by the fact that many people have great difficulties empathizing or understanding anything they haven't directly experienced themselves. (And I'm not saying that stepping into another person's shoes is easy.)
Anyway, you are correct. It is simply not reasonable to expect Anomen to "get over it" before he is in his forties, at the very least. Whether his "not getting over it" manifests outwardly is a different question altogether.
Anomen: I could have been more, Father, had you cared. I... I always loved you. And I still do.
Cor: You...?
Anomen: Aye. And still I do. We are so much alike, you and I. More than you will ever know. We... could have been so much more.
Anomen: Go, then. Go and tend to your petty schemes; I'll have no more of it. Perhaps one day, if you find some shred of enlightenment... perhaps, then, we'll speak again.
Cor: ...aye... perhaps...
I feel what makes Anomen sympathetic for me where characters like Viconia don't is that the game shows how he developed his negative qualities through different perspectives. With Viconia, I've never really felt much sympathy mostly because it's entirely filtered though her toxic mentality, compulsive lying and self-serving memory. Anomen's reasons for his faults feel more genuine because I got to see how he became that way and help him through it, and see him change for the better, for LG-Anomen anyway. Anomen's never struck me to be as arrogant and holier-than-thou as first glance. It's clear that he's actually a person with crippling low-esteem that always feels he has something to prove, and as someone who's dealt with similar feelings I can empathize. I do feel it's a mistake for players to write him off too quickly.
By comparison, I also feel Jan fails as a character because while the game gives him depth it fails to go any further with him beyond his little sidequest. No character development, no mention of it past his epilogue, nothing. It's the main reason I dislike him because he gets a character arc that could have made him interesting for someone like me who doesn't enjoy his gimmick but it's ultimately pointless.
Also, I do feel Minsc actually has depth but it's hard to see. But I think I've gone too far off-topic as it is.
As for Jan: I can wholeheartedly understand why somebody wouldn't like him. And I agree that he doesn't develop. However, I happen to have a fondness for precisely the kind of silliness he represents, and I also happen to think he's voiced superbly, so gets my vote nearly every time (although he is not a part of my current playthrough group).
Yes, Anomen has terrible self-esteem, just like Cernd is unable to face up to his adult responsibilities, and both of them react to their interior struggles in the most common way. This is well represented in the game.
Regarding Jan - I'd have a lot more tolerance for his characterization that doesn't appeal to me if it didn't come at the detriment of what potential he could have. Actually, one of the best things the EE writing brought was the Jan-Hexxat dialogue since it actually melds the two different aspects of Jan in a reasonable way, where he brings up one of his usual long-winded tales but actually puts it in a context that suits the conversation they're having, which actually made it meaningful. That's the type of Jan I'd actually want to read dialogue for rather than hitting the space key repeatedly.
Regarding Minsc - admittedly, I tend to read a little too much into Minsc because I'm heavily biased towards the character, but I see him as the archetype of an ideal superhero, or at least trying to be. I find that highly refreshing because this isn't the type of setting that you'd expect a superhero archetype to fit into, no, this is the universe of brooding heroes like Drizzt or where idealists like Cadderly get pulled into the harsh reality of life. Whether the writers intended it or not, Minsc actually makes it works by virtue of being a simple-minded yet good-natured loon. The Minsc-Mazzy banters I feel portrays it best. Mazzy completely misinterprets Minsc's praise as being backhanded because she is simply not used to being responded to in such a way and ultimately appreciates him for what he is. It's also worth mentioning that Minsc also goes through his fair share of pain - perhaps not as much as some others, but a fair amount, and yet he deals with it in a way that only he could. He mourns a little then channels his grief into righteously-driven vengeance, continues with his superheroing ways, and optionally takes Aerie as his witch in order to not fail again. And he does this all without any input from the PC. Of course, he needs the PC to act as a voice of reason for him because he's too simple-minded to act on his own, but I don't really hold that against him. And he acts as the ultimate pillar of inspiration and moral support for the party by actively complimenting and praising good-aligned party members and praising the PC for doing good deeds to make them feel good about themselves (note that the only other ones who do this is Mazzy and Keldorn, who are basically duty-bound to do so). He never lets anything get him down, make him doubt or give him pause, not even dying and falling to Hell:
I speak no hyperbole when I say this is by far the best line upon entering Hell out of all the party members in my opinion. He's successfully atoned for his failures. He's got his ideal afterlife waiting for him, and he decides to go back for his friend for what could be his last good fight. Why? Because that's what heroes f---ing do.
I won't say Minsc is by far the absolute best character. I think Keldorn, Jaheira, Imoen and Anomen have more reasonable character arcs and I won't say anyone's wrong for denouncing Minsc for his flaws, but in my opinion Minsc takes what he is and goes the whole way with it, and it works brilliantly. If I were to grade party members on an A-D scale (no lower as I don't think any character is that terrible) he gets a solid B from me.
Edit: Yeah, I know I didn't make any mention of Boo anywhere in this rant, but that's because to be honest, I don't really feel Boo makes that much of an impact on what makes Minsc's character work. It's alright, but it's one of those comic relief aspects that I don't care that much for, though admittedly it makes for some great banters. tl;dr Minsc is great because his simplicity enables a character archetype that normally doesn't work in the FR-verse, and does so in a way that I personally find both effective and endearing.
"The murder of many doesn't go unseen or unpunished." -Dorn himself, in SOD
Although imo that sentence itself is bad writing. It feels like they're trying to add non-exist layers to someone who's supposed to be cliche evil.
I’ll write another essay when I’m not on my phone, but I’m not part of the EE vs. original debate. I think Rassad and Neera’s character arcs are fine while Dorn’s BG2 arc completely dropped the ball. I only wrote all that above because I was asked to share my thoughts and I obliged. I’m not trying to change anyone’s minds here. At most I’m trying to provide a perspective that other people might not be considering.
I could easily write pages about Dorn Il-Khan, about his past, his childhood, his traumas with his family and ex, the goals and reasons of his life, his character development, etc etc etc, because I really *love* this character, so I am willing to dig into *between* the lines for every piece of information. I could be making up things, but to me he is far more than "cliche evil".
His whole story arc in BG2 is TERRIBLY written. He gives the impression of a typical blackguard, almost everyone in this thread calls him cliche evil, because that's what he appears to be, had I not wanted a cliche evil romance for my cliche evil charname I'd miss this character at all.
It's said that this character lacks layer. His banters are the worst part, where you see him cares for nothing but power and his patron, and you don't even know what makes him so.
Problem is, he *did* have a history, which explains *quite a lot*, but that history is scattered in BG1 and SOD and even the Dragon magazine. There's supposed to be a storyline which connects and concludes all these scattered information and tell us who the hell is Dorn Il-Khan, but instead the best part of his mission (aside from killing tons of paladins) is concentrated on dryads, colorful crystals, and fairy dragons.
The whole scene is merry as a child's painting book, which itself is not bad, the resurrection gorge is an interesting map to play, but c'mon dudes, when I took *cliche evil* into my party I wasn't expecting fairy dragons holding pink crystals!
The whole thing just went off topic!
When the final choice between Ur-Gothoz and Azothet is up to Charname, don't make it feel like a random suggestion for dinner after Disney's Park, because that decision is supposed to be a struggle between lawful and chaotic, between power and freedom, and that's the important part of an character.
This happens to other EE characters too, like nobody knows why in the realms would Larloch want a vampire to rob Chinese graves for him, or why would said vampire follow his orders.
Their quests seems to have nothing to do with their personality. But as I said, they *did* have personalities; it's just you have to romance them first in order to get to know them.
Sounds ridiculous right?
There's plenty of struggle between power and freedom in Dorn's lovetalks, plenty of hatred toward her own body in Hexxat's lovetalks, I haven't tried but I heard that same thing happens if you romance Neera.
One of the problem is, the lovetalks are *separated* from their quests. By the time you suddenly realizes how stressed Dorn is about having a patron bossing him around, you might already have Azothet bounded in the Abyssal Blade.
The more important thing is that, for those who aren't playing their romance path, these characters just don't make sense at all.
They took an important part out of each character to make up their lovetalks, which made the non-romance paths unacceptable, which made people don't want to initiate a romance at all.
Btw, I went through Rasaad's quests only once. English is not my mother tongue, and I can hardly understand what my mission is or who am I supposed to be fighting, I have the feeling that there's a good story being told, but I just can't comprehend. Which, is totally my fault, though.
The English language is my job, at a high level of expertise, and I do not hesitate to say that I know it quite well, going back to Chaucer and all that. The fact is, Rasaad's tale is badly written and may leave you somewhat uncertain as to what has been happening. It is not horribly complicated or completely messed up, but just vague enough to puzzle you in just about the way you described.
And they compressed all the .plt files!!!
I prefer the original character appearances and used to put all the old plt files in /override, but after a certain version the old files don't work anymore
@xzar_monty
Thanks a lot.
Perhaps I can try it again sometime
I am aware that the majority of people here are from Europe/NA, though, so I don't hold my breath expecting this viewpoint to be understood for what it is, because
I don't know where you're from, but it's probably still a fact that there are more places in the world where the regular beating of children, for instance, is a given, than there are places where it's frowned upon or even outlawed (like in my country). These differences are indeed staggering.
From the other hand, as much as I dislike Anomen (mostly for his romance, I do think Anomen is a great character) - does he really complain about his problems? With all the mods I am using it's easy to loose the original idea, but I though, all Anomen's problems were shown to us during his quest, he did not whine about it in dialogs. I'd say he keeps strong facade pretty well and DG translated that psychological type very accurately.
There's a conversation where he tells you about his father turning up drunk to his acceptance into the Order ceremony.
The thing is, you don't actually need to validate your feelings to anyone, and so disliking Anomen for what he does and does not say is perfectly valid. That said, that doesn't really make his problems "first world problems." I began counseling for depression my first year of university and when my father found out he asked, "What do you have to be depressed about? There are millions of people out there who haven't had any of the opportunities you've had and they're the ones who have real problems and a reason to be depressed." There's always going to be someone who has it worse than you, and just because someone has it worse doesn't mean your problems aren't real. Also, part of the reason I was *in* counseling to begin with is my father used to hit me and though he hasn't been physically abusive in years I still flinch every time I have to walk by him when he's in a pet, and to this very day he still says terrible, awful things to me. I deal with my past by making people work for my trust, and I don't resent anyone who doesn't bother. It's my right to hold them at an arm's length just as it's their right to walk away. Anomen deals with his abuse by becoming a massive jerk, and I think it's fine if people aren't willing to look past that. Not everyone is willing to go the extra mile to get to know someone and that's totally fine, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth knowing. And everyone in the world and even in fantasy worlds deals with abuse differently.
Also, I don't even like Anomen. I did when I was younger but I haven't managed to finish a game with him in over ten years. I can't stand him anymore, but I think claiming he's poorly written is unfair.
Ooops, I knew I'd missed something.
I thought the heretics were on the right track and in the end it would turn out they were one and the same.
I have no idea if this would eventually legitimize it though. Maybe someone who more about hoe faith and religion works in FR could shed some light.
Wait WHAT
I briefly went through the .dlg files and...
I think there's no way you can actually lead a *cult* without having actual godly power behind them? Like Alorgoth's cult is actually supported by Shar but if you convince Rasaad to lead the Truth...
Like Alorgoth said, there is no Twofold Goddess, so there's no way it's going to work right???
For that matter, if CHARNAME ascended at the end of ToB, they could become the cult's new patron.
(And what's the difference between the portfolio and domains of a deity?)
And in Rasaad's case if someone actually claims to be the patron of the Truth, isn't they stealing worshippers from Shar and Selune, won't they earn the ire of the two goddesses?