Question about 2.5: Any story additions?
Calemyr
Member Posts: 238
I'm not entirely up to date on the 2.5 version of BG2EE, except that it seems to be taking a good bit of time. I was wondering if anyone could answer if there's going to be any additions to the game to tie SoD into it. The fact that it's not well acknowledged that SoD was even a thing in BG2 is something that really bothers me about the latest chapter of the Bhaalspawn saga, making it feel more like a fan-fiction addition than a proper expansion.
Some things I was wondering about:
1) Viconia and Neera romances. Both Viconia and Neera have fairly important experiences that take place between BG1 and BG2, such as Neera's boyfriend and Viconia's attempt at farming. SoD, however, fills the gap right up until BG2, making those events difficult to fit into the timeline anymore. Viconia's can pretty easily be shoved to before BG1, but Neera's isn't so easy to headcanon around. Will either of these be addressed, even as a single throwaway line?
2) The Soultaker Dagger. Near the end of SoD, the Soultaker Dagger makes an appearance. In BG2, it is never mentioned. I would really like a chance to reclaim that dagger, if only to give it to Corwin for safe keeping. It's a particularly vexing loose end that nags at me. "I can kill a near divine mage, a practically divine cleric, and a literal king of demons, but I can't find one blasted dagger."
3) The Shining Lady. I know SoD has a couple different routes the Shining Lady can take, but some of them leave her a free agent able to return. I would be quite interested if she were to make a cameo in BG2, even as a recruitable allie in ToB, like Sarevok. Oh, can you imagine the banters between those two?
4) Corwin. It would be nice to get some closure with the Archer Queen, because of how things are left at the end of SoD. I know she doesn't always survive every game, but this is BG2, right? The game that coined the "Weren't you dead?" "I think so. Your point?" bit? You can still allow at least a final conversation between the two.
Also, while I know previous patches allowed the player to import certain SoD items into BG2, I'm curious if any more are to be added, like the Shield of Egon's. SoD had a lot of great items that served as small gamechangers by modifying how certain classes/kits worked. It'd be nice to use them in BG2.
Now, I know I'm much too late for these to be counted as suggestions. I'm just curious if there's anything that's going to be added to BG2EE beyond bug fixes and UI adjustments. You guys have snuck in cool things before, like Baeloth, Wilson, and the new kits. I'm just hoping this time we'll get something meaty as well.
Some things I was wondering about:
1) Viconia and Neera romances. Both Viconia and Neera have fairly important experiences that take place between BG1 and BG2, such as Neera's boyfriend and Viconia's attempt at farming. SoD, however, fills the gap right up until BG2, making those events difficult to fit into the timeline anymore. Viconia's can pretty easily be shoved to before BG1, but Neera's isn't so easy to headcanon around. Will either of these be addressed, even as a single throwaway line?
2) The Soultaker Dagger. Near the end of SoD, the Soultaker Dagger makes an appearance. In BG2, it is never mentioned. I would really like a chance to reclaim that dagger, if only to give it to Corwin for safe keeping. It's a particularly vexing loose end that nags at me. "I can kill a near divine mage, a practically divine cleric, and a literal king of demons, but I can't find one blasted dagger."
3) The Shining Lady. I know SoD has a couple different routes the Shining Lady can take, but some of them leave her a free agent able to return. I would be quite interested if she were to make a cameo in BG2, even as a recruitable allie in ToB, like Sarevok. Oh, can you imagine the banters between those two?
4) Corwin. It would be nice to get some closure with the Archer Queen, because of how things are left at the end of SoD. I know she doesn't always survive every game, but this is BG2, right? The game that coined the "Weren't you dead?" "I think so. Your point?" bit? You can still allow at least a final conversation between the two.
Also, while I know previous patches allowed the player to import certain SoD items into BG2, I'm curious if any more are to be added, like the Shield of Egon's. SoD had a lot of great items that served as small gamechangers by modifying how certain classes/kits worked. It'd be nice to use them in BG2.
Now, I know I'm much too late for these to be counted as suggestions. I'm just curious if there's anything that's going to be added to BG2EE beyond bug fixes and UI adjustments. You guys have snuck in cool things before, like Baeloth, Wilson, and the new kits. I'm just hoping this time we'll get something meaty as well.
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Comments
2) I have been buggin Beamdog for weeks to fix that.
3) She is either dead or stuck in Hell after SoD. Not really a free agent or even capable of returning under her own power. Its a fairly closed end, but I see a lot of modding potential here.
4) Considering her daughter, I would feel dirty trying to get her away from Baldur's Gate to join me in BG2. Even though she WAS one of my favorite npcs.
BTW Calemyr, I like your avatar. I read the Cold fire trilogy when I was a teen. I liked it a lot and really love the cover art for the third book that you are using.
2) I don't mean going back to Baldur's Gate. That's a ship that's sailed in BG2 - no going back. However, I could see Corwin appearing in BG2. Pissed that Charname escaped, Entar resurrects or recruits Corwin to go after Charname, who is rumored to be in Amn. Conflicted with her own opinions of the fallen Hero of Baldur's Gate, she accepts if only to get closure of her own. When they meet, it's a complicated mess of resentment and regret on both sides. Charname gains the chance to reclaim the dagger and hand it to her. She returns home (either then and there or at the end of ToB if she's recruitable again) and uses the dagger to clear Charname's name. I mean, in canon Charname eventually returns to Baldur's Gate to become politician, so Entar had to either die for good or get over it at some point.
The other way I could see it going is finding the dagger and using it to recruit Skie - the maturing, well meaning Skie of SoD rather than the spoiled brat of BG1. Ever since I played BG1 I've longed for a chance to continue that evolution. Having her join as a Shadowdancer or Swashbuckler would be pretty cool, too.
3) I've argued this point before, but I still don't see a living high level fighter with divine power being trapped in Hell as a long term situation. Planes travelling is a key factor in the setting. Charname planehops a few times before it becomes an innate skill. The end of SoD makes it pretty clear that nothing in Avernus is a proper challenge to her, so until the boss of the level respawns she's pretty safe and just waiting for the next open door out of there. Heck, even if she's stuck there, Charname's pocketplane in ToB would be a perfect venue for finding and recruiting her. Their levels would mesh pretty well at that point, too.
Much like Corwin and Skie, I think a lot more could be done with her. Were I a proper modder, I would write her along the lines of Redeemed Sarevok - a conflicted mess of opposing alignments that can't find peace in anything. A way to really dig in the knife on it would be for the demons to just accept her presence rather than fight her - considering her a blackguard because of her actions, even if her god doesn't. If that wasn't enough, pairing her with other evil characters (particularly Dorn, Hexxat, and Sarevok) could really screw with her. Basically, she'd be a cross between Aribeth of NWN and Sarevok: not entirely good, not entirely evil, and as a result burdened with incredible guilt for her actions. That's something we don't really see in BG at all, really. Viconia and Sarevok can be led to change their perspectives, and Sarevok struggles with his morality in epilogue, but neither of them truly regret their actions beyond consequences those actions had on them.
Sadly, I am crap at modding the Infinity Engine. So any big ideas I might have are pretty much wasted.
@the_sextein Thanks for the kind words, and for pointing out where the picture was from. I just found it back when I was playing BG2 back in the day and felt it was a good representation of a character from my own stories, a character whose skills and demeanor were perfect for Baldur's Gate. I'll have to look into the Cold Fire trilogy, if only for an opportunity to better appreciate.
That's not to say that you do not have some great points, just please be aware that it isn't as simple as tweaking the story, or rather it would be IF they were allowed to do so, which they are not.
But most of this is tied to Beamdog content. The dagger, Corwin, Caelar, and even Skie's current status were Beamdog's content. That's content they should be able to extend in BG2, much like their EE characters.
Think of it this way, if you owned a famous song then you can allow 3rd parties to make licensing agreements to play or use the song based on a pre-approved set of criteria. If they had a deal to distribute your song, would you allow them to re-mix the song, then release an Album with 3 official versions of your song plus their song?
Still, it would appear they were given leeway to add but not change. Black Isle characters were allowed to speak in banters with Beamdog characters. We got a hell of a lot of content with the Beamdog cast. Several new - and complex - locations added, like the Wild Mage commune or the heretic's temple. Or the numerous tombs that Hexxat calls you to explore. Large stories like Dorn's rebellion or, again, Hexxat's quest are also there. They were able to add a lot to the game, they just couldn't modify what was there.
But the key thing here is that I hate unfinished stories, and SoD created too many of them. If even a few of them got resolved, be it in SoD or in BG2, I would have a much more charitable opinion of SoD.
Also apparently the 2.5 update for BG1 EE included some storyline additions:
http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/04/baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition-25-beta.html
Jaheira should recognize Seniyad during the encounter with Aldeth (35189)
There should be a conclusion to the vial of mysterious liquid found in the Nashkel Mines (35148)
Kivan should interject when you encounter Tazok at the bandit camp (35147)
Branwen should interject when confronting Tranzig in Beregost (35121)
Yeslick should confront Rieltar in the Candlekeep Library (35102)
You should be able to finish Kagain's caravan quest (35003)
Eldoth's special ability should create one stack of five arrows (34652)
Shoal the Nereid should not kill Player1 (34275)
You should be able to interact with Entar at his estate in NW Baldur's Gate (35176)
The protagonists and antagonists are well described and not your typical archetype.
I should reread them....
The thing about this is that she'd rather be a victim than be vulnerable. Lying about her victimhood weakens her position, though. She doesn't want to be weak, or seen as weak, but her stories frequently present her as such. If it were a lie, she'd be fabricating weakness, mentally placing herself in situations where she's powerless and abused. That doesn't sound right to me. If it were true, however, then her wounds become her weapon to fend off future weakness and her trauma becomes armor to reinforce her will to never be that weak or vulnerable again. That is the Viconia I see.
To my mind, she seems to be a more complex version of Jack from Mass Effect 2. She tries to minimize her trauma by trivializing sex. "See? It's no big deal. It's not like I'm a victim or anything. Not like being burnt at the stake by Beshaba worshipers or hunted by racist mercenaries." Her drow upbringing helps with this, as they seem to see it as a transactional act and a relaxation tool rather than anything intimate, but Viconia doesn't fully accept drow mentality. That's why she's on the surface to begin with.
I mean, personally speaking, my preferred romance of the original four was Jaheira. That was a relationship built on mutual trust and respect that only grew stronger in the fires of war. That said, Viconia's probably the most compelling option from a pure story-telling standpoint. Which is why I consider her the "canon" romance of the story, along with the fact that she's an early recruit in every game, making her an even more constant ally than Imoen.
So... I guess my point is that I don't think she made the event up. It's not in her nature. As I perceive her nature, anyway. She's manipulative and deceitful, but not prone to bald-faced lies. The exact timing of her experience at the farm is probably irrelevant. I don't even remember if she actually says when the event happened, just that I got the impression it was between BG1 and BG2.
Neera is more of a problem, because she explicitly states it was after BG1 (and thus painfully after your romance with her could have begun). Without SoD, that's just an unfortunate fact of life. Neera wants a boyfriend, but is prone to panicking and running away so it's not much of a surprise that Charname isn't the only guy she's left behind and a year is plenty of time for something like that to happen. With SoD, however, it becomes difficult to make it work, timing-wise, and should probably be re-written to before she met Charname. That sort of confuses the rather adolescent nature of BG1's chapter of the romance, but it still works better than the timeline we're forced to work with otherwise.
So it all does fit together, I guess. Viconia is always the injured party in her stories, after all. The Flaming Fist wanted to kill her because she was a drow (leaving out that she's a murder suspect). The followers of Beshaba just caught a glimpse of her face and decided to burn her at the stake. Of course she would frame the incident at the farm in a way she was entirely innocent.
So she gets a house on the plains - maybe she bought it (more likely she killed the previous owner - that's probably a legitimate transaction by drow logic). She tries to get on with her life in exile. Her neighbors show her some kindness, then a lot of unkindness when her guard is down. She gets revenge and kills said neighbors, getting her in trouble with the Fist and runs for it. Charname swoops in (swooping isn't always bad) and saves the day.
Yeah, that tracks. Lying about the timing to make herself look more innocent is more in character than making the event up from whole cloth, and SoD doesn't disrupt the narrative. And it's supported by in game content. I like it.