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Available Tanks and Clerics in SoD?

Hi, it's been a long time since I tried SoD, and I'm thinking of doing a new run as a mage character and including SoD.

First, let me say, I prefer a party with the classic four classes (no fancy-schmancy duals and multis) covered plus one or two support classes or backups to the main four.

So, the plan is to have Charname-mage, Ajantis, Branwen, Imoen for the main four in BG1.

For BG2, it would be Charname-mage, Keldorn, Anomen, Yoshimo-Imoen for the main four.

For SoD, I'm at a loss for where to get my tank. I can't use Minsc, because I don't want a second mage in the form of Dynaheir.

Safana will be fine as a thief. I can use Glint for my cleric, although I don't like having him duplicating Safana's thief skills at the expense of his cleric spells. I might try substituting M'khin for Glint as the party healer.

But where in the world can I get a good tank in SoD without using Minsc? I don't consider Rasaad to be a suitable substitute, and he doesn't join until later anyway.

I'd be happy to use Jaheira and Khalid, but they abandon the party early in the game and don't come back until much later, after many difficult battles where I would be tankless without Minsc.

Any ideas? Also, isn't SoD kind of weak in choice of melee fighters at the start of the game? It seems like they just assumed you'd use Minsc and Dynaheir automatically. I guess maybe I'd have to use them and carry Dynaheir until I could get to Jaheira and Khalid again.

JuliusBorisov

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,105
    Jaheira and Khalid are both available, and both can tank. That's about it. Part of SoD's challenge is using the npcs available to build a good party. You will HAVE to go outside your comfort zone (if you care about alignment or multi when building) to make the most effective team.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,076
    Mod wise, I can highly suggest Ishlilka the H/O Wizard Slayer (NG) for that group, if sticking to the good/ neutral side. Just make sure she is in the group at the end of BG1 to run her in SoD. @WarChiefZeke is working on BG2 content now.

    Outside of that alignment range we have Shar-teel and Verr'zsa now as well.

    ThacoBell
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,732
    ThacoBell said:

    Jaheira and Khalid are both available, and both can tank. That's about it. Part of SoD's challenge is using the npcs available to build a good party. You will HAVE to go outside your comfort zone (if you care about alignment or multi when building) to make the most effective team.

    And that, my friend, is why you've just convinced me not to play SoD again. I knew there was a reason I've always had trouble liking it. Too much railroading, not enough player choice.

    SkaroseOrlonKronsteenQuartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,105
    It doesn't railroad any harder than BG2.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 735
    Level 1 NPCs & NPCs enhanced for everyone have done the job for me where necessary as well...

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,105
    It may be fun to pick up characters a little out of your comfort zone.

    tbone1
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 561
    edited June 3
    Grond0 said:

    It's questionable though whether you should be aiming for a tank in the sense used in BG1/BG2 anyway.

    It's not just tanking per se, that's missed, but melee dps. It's nice to have a fighter or two to chase down mages and archers who are targeting your more vulnerable characters. At least you have Corwin who can do some serious damage with arrows.

    Edit: while the OP doesn't want to use Minsc, at least he's an option. Evil parties have it a lot tougher.

    ThacoBellBelgarathMTHAerakar
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,125
    even with mods evil parties have issues. it's basically just dorn and lava's Verr'Sza.

    ThacoBell
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 643
    You can make do with Rasaad (buffed with armor spells) and/or Voghlin (also buffed) as a tank until you get Khalid and Jaheira, though you'd also need someone capable of dealing actual damage (Corwin). And considering how good Corwin is, I'd say it's the evil parties that got the short end of the stick in SoD.

    ThacoBell
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,732
    edited June 3
    I think I may have thought of a way to enjoy SoD. Basically, what I want to do is create my own four member party, so that I can play BG the same as Might and Magic 6, 7, and 8.

    My problem with doing this in the past has been that custom parties tend to steamroll the BG games. Maybe I could solve that by deliberately avoiding min-maxing stats.

    My question would be, can I do the custom party thing using multiplayer mode like in BG1? Can I still move that multiplayer save to a single player file in the EE's? (The whole process of using multiplayer mode in original BG was a bit easier, I think.) What problems would you foresee with my doing that?

    Other points: When I say "tank", for purposes of BG, I mean melee fighter classes who can march straight into enemies and start swinging, at the least distracting them from the squishy classes who need to stand back and try to cast spells. The traditions of fighter-cleric frontline and ranged thief and mage on backline work very well in BG 1 and 2, and should work in SoD.

    I consider Rasaad pretty close to worthless in a traditional melee fighter role, because in part, his AC will never be up to snuff, but moreso, because of his critical hit vulnerability. To me, his class is support DPS only.

    Also, I almost am tempted to create a topic in general discussion about D&D four-role tradition vs. WoW three-role tradition. I think tank-healer-dps still applies pretty well to D&D, which is a variation on the theme, in my opinion. There's a bigger crowd control issue in D&D, for both the player and the enemies, where lots of "save-counterspell-or-dies" are going to be constantly flying back and forth, and that leads to the "mage and cleric chess" element that you wouldn't see in a mmorpg three-role system.

    EDIT: Okay, I created a "Might and Magic 8" party consisting of me as a human illusionist, Arius as a half-orc berserker, Rohani as an elven thief-fighter, and Frederick as a dwarven fighter-cleric. I successfully moved the save file to my single player saves. I'm pretty sure this party is going to make mincemeat of BG1, but it will start to face a challenge in SoD if I go that far, mostly because of the advanced AI. (That's assuming SoD doesn't do something to screw up custom parties.) It might be fun to also do this party in IWD.

    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    OrlonKronsteen
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 561
    @BelgarathMTH You don't need to monkey around with multiplayer anymore, you can just use the create party mode in single player. Voila!

    And the true definition of will power is rolling a custom party without giving them all munchkin stats. :) I usually use at least one custom NPC because after all these years I'm frustrated by the available options and I've already experienced the banters a thousand times. I'm actually thinking of switching to full custom parties now. But my house rule is: charname is welcome to munchin stats, the NPCs aren't. I'm thinking of trying some new setups. Whereas I always used to have two mages, I'm now thinking of trying a primary mage and, say, a jester as backup to mix things up.

    BelgarathMTHJuliusBorisovStummvonBordwehr
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,732
    edited June 3
    @OrlonKronsteen , Oh, I didn't know that was a thing. Anyway, see my edit, above.

    EDIT to the EDITS: I meant to say Rohani is a thief-fighter, not a cleric-fighter. D'oh!

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 561
    edited June 3
    Nice! You'll have no problem with custom parties in SOD. Who's going to do your thieving? I'm guessing Imoen in BG1 and Glint in SOD?

    Oh, one thing: IIRC if you're importing from original BG 1 (with the blue stone colour) into SOD you will lose any containers you had, like gem bags, etc. It's a bummer. I would recommend playing BG1 within the SOD interface if that's important to you.

    EDIT to your edits to your edits: LOL! Okay, I see you have your thieving covered. :)

    JuliusBorisov
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,732
    @OrlonKronsteen , that last post of yours is one I'd give all three of "like, insightful, and agree" if I could, and a "love" like on Facebook. I just checked out "create party", and it looks just like the old multiplayer party creation screen I used to know and love from vanilla BG from the "good, old days".

    Thanks, man, you just gave BG new possibilities for me.

    OrlonKronsteenJuliusBorisov
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 561
    Yeah, it's great. It saves a lot of work. The nice thing is the multiplayer solution is still there if you want to add a custom NPC mid-game.

    Grond0JuliusBorisov
  • DonCzirrDonCzirr Member Posts: 75
    Jaheira and Khalid - ugh.

    I just started SOD and am eagerly awaiting the opportunity to run a train of HobGoblins over Khalid to silence the stuttering fool.

    It's nice atm since I have Dorn ... but from what I have read .... he'll be gone soon from my party and then I'll only be able to pick him up once 60% of the game is complete.

    One way I dealt with some annoying characters in BG1 was to drop the (annoying) optimal NPC (i.e. Kagain as tank) and just play at a lower difficulty.

    I find that the banter and NPC stories are more important to my enjoyment of the game than having the highest DPS / HP characters etc ...

    Not sure how well this approach will work in SOD but that's my current plan.

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,926

    even with mods evil parties have issues.

    That’s probably why they’re evil in the first place.

    ThacoBellmegamike15
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 840
    edited June 8
    DonCzirr said:

    Jaheira and Khalid - ugh.

    I just started SOD and am eagerly awaiting the opportunity to run a train of HobGoblins over Khalid to silence the stuttering fool.

    It's nice atm since I have Dorn ... but from what I have read .... he'll be gone soon from my party and then I'll only be able to pick him up once 60% of the game is complete.

    One way I dealt with some annoying characters in BG1 was to drop the (annoying) optimal NPC (i.e. Kagain as tank) and just play at a lower difficulty.

    I find that the banter and NPC stories are more important to my enjoyment of the game than having the highest DPS / HP characters etc ...

    Not sure how well this approach will work in SOD but that's my current plan.

    There's a mod, I forget which, that moves Dorn to the inn in BG.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • DonCzirrDonCzirr Member Posts: 75
    Wow - that would be nice. Thanks for the tip Hamster !

    Anyone else know this mod and perhaps have used it on a full run-through of SOD ?

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,125

    DonCzirr said:

    Jaheira and Khalid - ugh.

    I just started SOD and am eagerly awaiting the opportunity to run a train of HobGoblins over Khalid to silence the stuttering fool.

    It's nice atm since I have Dorn ... but from what I have read .... he'll be gone soon from my party and then I'll only be able to pick him up once 60% of the game is complete.

    One way I dealt with some annoying characters in BG1 was to drop the (annoying) optimal NPC (i.e. Kagain as tank) and just play at a lower difficulty.

    I find that the banter and NPC stories are more important to my enjoyment of the game than having the highest DPS / HP characters etc ...

    Not sure how well this approach will work in SOD but that's my current plan.

    There's a mod, I forget which, that moves Dorn to the inn in BG.
    it's this mod. https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/58941/mod-bgeenpc-tweaks-for-bgee-sod-bg2ee-eet/p1

    i use it because it moves alot of the characters to more convenient places like viconia.

    it also changes it so neera's cutscene won't play unless you talk to her.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,210
    ThacoBell said:

    It may be fun to pick up characters a little out of your comfort zone.

    That was one of the better features from SoD, IMHO.

    ThacoBellContemplative_Hamster
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