I had Shar-Teel dual-wielding the Dagger of Venom and the Heart of the Golem. The combo makes her pretty sweet. I dualled her to Thief at 6 and have hit Thief 6 now, so only one more level to go before I get her Dagger Mastery and DW pips back, then she will be awesome.
Dorn still wrecks everything on my game, though, but she is a close second.
I had Shar-Teel dual-wielding the Dagger of Venom and the Heart of the Golem. The combo makes her pretty sweet. I dualled her to Thief at 6 and have hit Thief 6 now, so only one more level to go before I get her Dagger Mastery and DW pips back, then she will be awesome.
Dorn still wrecks everything on my game, though, but she is a close second.
Sounds good, but I don't think I could stand all that down-time dualing at level 6, I'd dual at level 3. At level 4 thief you can start picking daggers again anyway.
@Pantalion Well, didn't see that coming. All the way I was convinced that she had two-handed sword with her. Either my memory is extremaly bad, or there is still a slight chance that we can both be right (at least when vanilla BG is considered). Take Khalid, for example. When you're entering The Friendly Arm inn, he starts with long sword and shield. But, when you vistit this place for the first time, when you already gathered level or two, you'll met him at higher level with two-handed sword and bow (can't recall which one). Maybe something similar was occuring with Shar-Theer? She's proficent in long swords, so having two-handed one could be possible. Whatever.
The way I see it, she's presented here (BG:EE) just in sole purpose to be dual-classed to thieves. Majority of people would do that, But majority isn't always right.
About damage, I agree. Thought when I'm talking about Shar-Teel proficences, I'm taking about ones that suits her in general, rather than relating to her high STR attribute only.
This is hardly surprising. Kivan has proficiency in Long bow, Two weapon style and Halberd. Um???? Which of these is not like the other two? Unless he is wield a Halberd in each hand?
I think that Kalid also had some funky proficiencies to begin with as well. And as far as I know, none of the early companions has proficiency in Long Sword. The most common (as far as I know) used weapon in the game. But that may have been under the assumption that the PC would want all of the best long swords (Grey Wolf's sword for instance).
In the original version, one of the big reasons for Shadowkeeper was so that you could fix these little things. Not that you needed to Powergame, but.... If you train heavily in a two handed weapon (or two), when do you have time or inclination to train in two weapon style?
Isn't Kivan a ranger? If that is the case he has two weapon style for the same reason Minsc does. Rangers get it even if you don't want to use it, and it isn't really a waste because those points were free.
Isn't Kivan a ranger? If that is the case he has two weapon style for the same reason Minsc does. Rangers get it even if you don't want to use it, and it isn't really a waste because those points were free.
Technically it isn't free. You get it without choosing it, True. But because you are a ranger, you get fewer slots. So don't look at it as "Why did he get two weapon style" and look at it as "Since he got two weapon style for being a Ranger, why doesn't he choose proficiency in at least one single handed weapon?" If rangers naturally train with two weapon style, it follows that they would have to train WITH a single handed weapon to learn that skill. It doesn't just grow there.
@the_spyder: rangers automatically gain 2 points in two-weapon fighting.
original BG1 used a far less restrictive (and imho, superior) weapon system, where many different weapons were grouped as one - for example, both long swords and two-handed swords fell under the large sword group, so if you picked up Minsc for example, he could just as easily wield long swords as two-handed ones.
luckily, you can get the same functionality back with tweak pack, and it is most awesome. (though sometimes you still need shadowkeeper, because npcs can end up with less prof points then they're supposed to)
I may have misunderstood you, but a ranger still starts with 4 proficeny points right? So at level 1 you have 6 counting the two weapon fighting when you should really have 4 at level 1. So not using the two weapon fighting doesn't hurt you as you still get 4 points at level 1, it just doesn't help you.
@the_spyder: rangers automatically gain 2 points in two-weapon fighting.
LOL. Must have been typing this at the same time I posted. See above.
yup though you are correct in the fact that they should have training in at least one single handed weapon, because being trained in dual wielding doesn't really make any sense without that.
I mean another problem here is Kivan is mostly going to be used with a longbow. So you can't have him dual wield and use a longbow without constantly changing weapons in the equipment screen since they didn't implement a IWD2 like interface for this. Which is why I'm guessing Kivan was given a 2 handed weapon.
This problem is going to extend to all rangers that you want to use ranged weapons with.
I may have misunderstood you, but a ranger still starts with 4 proficeny points right? So at level 1 you have 6 counting the two weapon fighting when you should really have 4 at level 1. So not using the two weapon fighting doesn't hurt you as you still get 4 points at level 1, it just doesn't help you.
I honestly don't remember how it plays out. But I do know that Kivan has two in longbow, one in two weapon style and one in Halberd. So that makes counters what you say. I can guarantee that he doesn't have two more slots because I had to pick Flail when his next proficiency opened up. So it is really wonky and counter-intuitive (to me). Just because they are Rangers, they don't Magically get the proficiency with two weapons. It has to be part of their training. Only what weapon did he train with? And why isn't he proficient in it?
And considering that one of the things Rangers to pass up on is higher levels of specialization, you would think that they would work to maximize what they are given.
It is semantic, but it does speak to the fact that the proficiencies for several of the NPCs are kind of weird to say the least.
Ah that is screwy. All rangers should start with 2 in two weapons so there is no way he should have 1, and it should be completely free.
If you start a level 1 ranger you have 4 points to place, and there are already 2 existing in two weapon fighting so you have 6. Unless I'm crazy and am making stuff up.
Well, I could equally be crazy. I just know in my current play through he had Bow, Halberd and 2 weapon and nothing else. I had to wait till he leveled up to a point where he could have flail because I wanted him to (a) be able to use the 2 weapon fighting and (b) be able to hit something that resisted bladed weapons.
And I know that Kalid "Used" to have some weird stuff. I remember there being talk about how it was "Fixed" in either Tutu or in one of the other Mods. Since i have mods installed, i can't say what the defaults were. But it doesn't surprise me that Shar Teel has issues.
@the_spyder Are you sure he didn't have 2 pips in halberd when you first got him? Because in my game he has 2 in longbow, 2 in halberd, 2 in 2 weapon style. If Kivan only had a total of 5 proficiency points (including the free ones in 2 weapon fighting) then it's probably a bug.
@the_spyder Are you sure he didn't have 2 pips in halberd when you first got him? Because in my game he has 2 in longbow, 2 in halberd, 2 in 2 weapon style. If Kivan only had a total of 5 proficiency points (including the free ones in 2 weapon fighting) then it's probably a bug.
Honestly I can't say for Absolute certainty on anything except he had 2 in Bow, some number in Halberd and some number 2 weapon style and nothing else. And I had to wait till he leveled to get Flail. The actual numbers in the slot? I would have to check when I get home if it is that important to people.
But if he does have two slots in 2 weapon? Man, that would really suck. both of those extra slots wasted.
And keep in mind, this is the Tutu version, not BG:EE.
I always thought it was weird Rangers got ++ in two weapon style. Since most of them to me should be bowmen. I could see ++ in your choice of two-handed weapon style OR single weapon style so you wouldn't have to change weapons out when using a bow and swapping back and forth.
So...I always house rule it for that now and shadowkeeper it to whatever I'm feeling.
But yes, it totally makes no sense giving Minsc Two Handed Swords and Kivan Halberds if they're going to have ++ in dual wielding for free. =/ I think the weapon style should be free for Rangers...but it should be of any choice so it reflects diverse weaponry. But maybe that's only me.
But if he does have two slots in 2 weapon? Man, that would really suck. both of those extra slots wasted.
Umm, I think it's been established that these slots aren't wasted, even if you never dual wield, seeing as how they are for free. You lose absolutely nothing by having them.
Umm, I think it's been established that these slots aren't wasted, even if you never dual wield, seeing as how they are for free. You lose absolutely nothing by having them.
I disagree. I think they are wasted. Even if you are getting more proficiency slots than a fighter, it means that the character trained in a fighting style that they will never use. That, to me is waste.
And given that fighters level up faster and get 4 proficiency slots per weapon/style instead of 2 for a ranger, and have more hit points, you are giving up a lot to get those extra two slots. So best to make use of every skill you have.
At level 1 as a ranger you still get to pick 4 pips. More than 4 would be too much at level 1.
If I shadowkeeper a ranger with 20 pips in katanas and never use a katana it isn't a waste. I just didn't use it. They were free.
And the two points in two weapon fighting is free, unless you are suggesting that rangers need to be able to select more than 4 pips at level 1?
Counter point.
My fighter doesn't have divine spells like a ranger. I don't really like grand mastery (5 pips) so I'm not going to use that, and I feel like I'm giving up too much by not having divine spells.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
For me, to have the points which were paid for (they aren't free) because you are a ranger, and not use them is a waste. It is like saying "I don't like divine spell casting so, despite the fact that my Ranger has the ability to cast them, I simply won't memorize them." It is a waste of an ability. You can do it, sure. But it is still waste in my book. Maybe not in yours.
Rangers get two pipe in Two-Weapon Fighting because in DnD (at least in 3.5. I don't know about earlier versions, but a lot of other things, like sorcerers, were inspired by 3rd Ed) get to choose between specializing in either archery/marksmanship or fighting with two weapons. Since there were no ranged combat style implemented in BG2, I guess they thought it would be fair to just give the Two-Weapon Fighting specialization automatically instead.
@Debaser "Then give her the following proficiencies: Level 3 fighter: ++ Dagger. Level 6 fighter: +++ Dagger. Level 1 Thief: + Dagger (which should stack when she regains her levels putting her at ++++ for mastery in Daggers) Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style (which should stack when she regains her fighter levels, putting her at +++) Level 8 Thief: + Scimitar (So you can put Twinkle the +2Defender on her if you want for AC bonus in her offhand), or if that's going to another character possibly + Shortbow or Crossbow to make sure she has a ranged weapon."
If you give her at level 1 Thief 1 pip into daggers, you'll screw your NPC: she'll lhave only 1 when she regains her fighter levels.
The same mistake is with "Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style".
Yeah, the game overwrites them if you put in pips in weapons as Thief when you already have Fighter pips, unless you have regained the Fighter abilities already.
One thing you can do is dual-class her at level 3. You can't put the Thief 1 points into daggers, but you get the Thief 4 point at the same time you regain your Fighter abilities, so there's no problem there.
Dual-wielding as a FT is overrated; it doesn't help her backstabs at all. Give her the dagger of venom, the +1 dex shield, and give her throwing daggers or a sling for ranged weapons. Keep putting pips in Daggers and you get Mastery at level 8.
You can also get grand mastery in daggers (something single-class fighters can't manage within BG:EE's XP cap) if you are willing to go the extra mile for it. Dual-class her at level 6 Fighter (3 pips in daggers), don't level her beyond level 3, wait until she has enough XP for Thief 7, then level her. She gets her 4th pip and regain her Fighter abilities at the same time, bypassing the problem and allowing you to get grand mastery at Thief 8. But that's a long time for Shar-Teel to be no more than a 3rd level Thief (during which she can't really use daggers).
Some argue that you should dual-class her at Fighter level 7, so she gets the extra attack, but that means losing out on the x4 backstab multiplier (as you can't reach level 9 Thief).
@Debaser "Then give her the following proficiencies: Level 3 fighter: ++ Dagger. Level 6 fighter: +++ Dagger. Level 1 Thief: + Dagger (which should stack when she regains her levels putting her at ++++ for mastery in Daggers) Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style (which should stack when she regains her fighter levels, putting her at +++) Level 8 Thief: + Scimitar (So you can put Twinkle the +2Defender on her if you want for AC bonus in her offhand), or if that's going to another character possibly + Shortbow or Crossbow to make sure she has a ranged weapon."
If you give her at level 1 Thief 1 pip into daggers, you'll screw your NPC: she'll lhave only 1 when she regains her fighter levels.
The same mistake is with "Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style".
She is Chaotic Evil ... Are you sure she can wield the Scimitar with +2 AC ?
Fighter level 6: Dagger+++ Thief level 1: not dagger Thief level 3 - stop levelling up Hit 40K in thief, level up to Thief level 7: Dagger++++ Thief 8: Dagger+++++
This way you regain your fighter proficiencies before you use your level 4 thief proficiency and it then stacks onto your fighter proficiencies. It is a bit of a wait but it is possible if you really want it.
@Debaser "Then give her the following proficiencies: Level 3 fighter: ++ Dagger. Level 6 fighter: +++ Dagger. Level 1 Thief: + Dagger (which should stack when she regains her levels putting her at ++++ for mastery in Daggers) Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style (which should stack when she regains her fighter levels, putting her at +++) Level 8 Thief: + Scimitar (So you can put Twinkle the +2Defender on her if you want for AC bonus in her offhand), or if that's going to another character possibly + Shortbow or Crossbow to make sure she has a ranged weapon."
If you give her at level 1 Thief 1 pip into daggers, you'll screw your NPC: she'll lhave only 1 when she regains her fighter levels.
The same mistake is with "Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style".
She is Chaotic Evil ... Are you sure she can wield the Scimitar with +2 AC ?
@Bengoshi - You get that alignment changing helmet from Durlag's tower and she can! =P
But yeah, I dunno...she's more thief than the fighter to me. The point is to have fun with it.
Comments
Dorn still wrecks everything on my game, though, but she is a close second.
Well, didn't see that coming. All the way I was convinced that she had two-handed sword with her. Either my memory is extremaly bad, or there is still a slight chance that we can both be right (at least when vanilla BG is considered). Take Khalid, for example. When you're entering The Friendly Arm inn, he starts with long sword and shield. But, when you vistit this place for the first time, when you already gathered level or two, you'll met him at higher level with two-handed sword and bow (can't recall which one). Maybe something similar was occuring with Shar-Theer? She's proficent in long swords, so having two-handed one could be possible. Whatever.
The way I see it, she's presented here (BG:EE) just in sole purpose to be dual-classed to thieves. Majority of people would do that, But majority isn't always right.
About damage, I agree. Thought when I'm talking about Shar-Teel proficences, I'm taking about ones that suits her in general, rather than relating to her high STR attribute only.
I think that Kalid also had some funky proficiencies to begin with as well. And as far as I know, none of the early companions has proficiency in Long Sword. The most common (as far as I know) used weapon in the game. But that may have been under the assumption that the PC would want all of the best long swords (Grey Wolf's sword for instance).
In the original version, one of the big reasons for Shadowkeeper was so that you could fix these little things. Not that you needed to Powergame, but.... If you train heavily in a two handed weapon (or two), when do you have time or inclination to train in two weapon style?
original BG1 used a far less restrictive (and imho, superior) weapon system, where many different weapons were grouped as one - for example, both long swords and two-handed swords fell under the large sword group, so if you picked up Minsc for example, he could just as easily wield long swords as two-handed ones.
luckily, you can get the same functionality back with tweak pack, and it is most awesome. (though sometimes you still need shadowkeeper, because npcs can end up with less prof points then they're supposed to)
This problem is going to extend to all rangers that you want to use ranged weapons with.
And considering that one of the things Rangers to pass up on is higher levels of specialization, you would think that they would work to maximize what they are given.
It is semantic, but it does speak to the fact that the proficiencies for several of the NPCs are kind of weird to say the least.
Ah that is screwy. All rangers should start with 2 in two weapons so there is no way he should have 1, and it should be completely free.
If you start a level 1 ranger you have 4 points to place, and there are already 2 existing in two weapon fighting so you have 6. Unless I'm crazy and am making stuff up.
And I know that Kalid "Used" to have some weird stuff. I remember there being talk about how it was "Fixed" in either Tutu or in one of the other Mods. Since i have mods installed, i can't say what the defaults were. But it doesn't surprise me that Shar Teel has issues.
But if he does have two slots in 2 weapon? Man, that would really suck. both of those extra slots wasted.
And keep in mind, this is the Tutu version, not BG:EE.
I always thought it was weird Rangers got ++ in two weapon style. Since most of them to me should be bowmen. I could see ++ in your choice of two-handed weapon style OR single weapon style so you wouldn't have to change weapons out when using a bow and swapping back and forth.
So...I always house rule it for that now and shadowkeeper it to whatever I'm feeling.
But yes, it totally makes no sense giving Minsc Two Handed Swords and Kivan Halberds if they're going to have ++ in dual wielding for free. =/ I think the weapon style should be free for Rangers...but it should be of any choice so it reflects diverse weaponry. But maybe that's only me.
And given that fighters level up faster and get 4 proficiency slots per weapon/style instead of 2 for a ranger, and have more hit points, you are giving up a lot to get those extra two slots. So best to make use of every skill you have.
If I shadowkeeper a ranger with 20 pips in katanas and never use a katana it isn't a waste. I just didn't use it. They were free.
And the two points in two weapon fighting is free, unless you are suggesting that rangers need to be able to select more than 4 pips at level 1?
Counter point.
My fighter doesn't have divine spells like a ranger. I don't really like grand mastery (5 pips) so I'm not going to use that, and I feel like I'm giving up too much by not having divine spells.
For me, to have the points which were paid for (they aren't free) because you are a ranger, and not use them is a waste. It is like saying "I don't like divine spell casting so, despite the fact that my Ranger has the ability to cast them, I simply won't memorize them." It is a waste of an ability. You can do it, sure. But it is still waste in my book. Maybe not in yours.
Rangers get two pipe in Two-Weapon Fighting because in DnD (at least in 3.5. I don't know about earlier versions, but a lot of other things, like sorcerers, were inspired by 3rd Ed) get to choose between specializing in either archery/marksmanship or fighting with two weapons. Since there were no ranged combat style implemented in BG2, I guess they thought it would be fair to just give the Two-Weapon Fighting specialization automatically instead.
@Debaser "Then give her the following proficiencies: Level 3 fighter: ++ Dagger. Level 6 fighter: +++ Dagger. Level 1 Thief: + Dagger (which should stack when she regains her levels putting her at ++++ for mastery in Daggers) Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style (which should stack when she regains her fighter levels, putting her at +++) Level 8 Thief: + Scimitar (So you can put Twinkle the +2Defender on her if you want for AC bonus in her offhand), or if that's going to another character possibly + Shortbow or Crossbow to make sure she has a ranged weapon."
If you give her at level 1 Thief 1 pip into daggers, you'll screw your NPC: she'll lhave only 1 when she regains her fighter levels.
The same mistake is with "Level 4 Thief: + Two Weapon Style".
One thing you can do is dual-class her at level 3. You can't put the Thief 1 points into daggers, but you get the Thief 4 point at the same time you regain your Fighter abilities, so there's no problem there.
Dual-wielding as a FT is overrated; it doesn't help her backstabs at all. Give her the dagger of venom, the +1 dex shield, and give her throwing daggers or a sling for ranged weapons. Keep putting pips in Daggers and you get Mastery at level 8.
You can also get grand mastery in daggers (something single-class fighters can't manage within BG:EE's XP cap) if you are willing to go the extra mile for it. Dual-class her at level 6 Fighter (3 pips in daggers), don't level her beyond level 3, wait until she has enough XP for Thief 7, then level her. She gets her 4th pip and regain her Fighter abilities at the same time, bypassing the problem and allowing you to get grand mastery at Thief 8. But that's a long time for Shar-Teel to be no more than a 3rd level Thief (during which she can't really use daggers).
Some argue that you should dual-class her at Fighter level 7, so she gets the extra attack, but that means losing out on the x4 backstab multiplier (as you can't reach level 9 Thief).
Long Sword ++
Dagger ++
Two-weapon Style ++
or
Long Sword ++
Dagger +
Two-weapon Style +++
And with her dual-wielding the Dagger of Venom in the off-hand, I'm actually not sure which would be better...
Fighter level 6: Dagger+++
Thief level 1: not dagger
Thief level 3 - stop levelling up
Hit 40K in thief, level up to Thief level 7: Dagger++++
Thief 8: Dagger+++++
This way you regain your fighter proficiencies before you use your level 4 thief proficiency and it then stacks onto your fighter proficiencies. It is a bit of a wait but it is possible if you really want it.
But yeah, I dunno...she's more thief than the fighter to me. The point is to have fun with it.