A: BG characters should remain as is. I personally (and this is really very personal) don't want to look at BGEE as a game that addresses balancing issues. But simply a game that brings BG into a more modern computer setup. But BGEE did introduce new characters and these should be the ones being targeted for balancing decisions by Overhaul -- and only these.
Mods are an excellent canvas for dealing with any balancing issue in the game. BGEE above all should be as close as possible a facsimile of BG.
C) Is nerfing needed to balance Baldur's Gate 1:EE?
A: I believe so. Dorn requires some in my humble opinion. Edwin could also use some nerfing. The former as a product of Overhaul's effort to balance the game, the latter as the result of a modder efforts. As per b)
D) Has original Baldur's Gate 1 ever been truly balanced?
A: No. Unfortunately the game still has balancing issues, even after the patches. They are less sever then when it was first launched though.
E) Isn't this better to be handled by mods?
A: Precisely. As per I support that all original BG content should be balanced by mods.
F) Can't balancing work the other way around? Instead of nerfing items you could make enemies stronger!
A: I'll reply to this on a different post...
G) Also, my personal fear is that once when you start down nerfing down things this will start a series of nerf downs. Why? Because when you nerf down item X which is the most powerful item after the nerf down it is weak. So there will be a new most powerful item: Item Y which was originally the second most powerful item, which needs nerfing down, too and so on.
A: Nerfing down an item or character should only be done in the context of a) objects or characters that are generally considered overpowered and b) never to make them weak, but instead making them weaker.
H) What does "Overpowering" (overpowered item/chars/abilities) mean personally for you? When is something overpowered when is it not?
A: When the player community at large agrees. Not when I think it is.
I) When is nerfing down needed and who is to say to which extend?
A: As per H) and only when the overpowering characteristic is clearly visible. For instance, we say Dorn is overpowered. But we have yet to identify precisely what makes him overpowered. Stats,? Equipment? Both?
The extent to which something should be nerfed down is essentially a product of the above and it should become clear once we identify the precise causes of the character or object overpower.
J) Is the difficulty setting of any relevance in relation to overpowering and nerfing?
A: Good question! One that is rarely addressed.
I believe so. On games like BG the difficulty setting should ALWAYS be included on any post complaining about something being too weak or too powerful. It's this context that will indeed help realize if there is a problem.
Sorry for the wall of text. I just felt your post extremely interesting and wanted to bring my personal opinion of every point you make. I'll address F) on a different post however.
I think modding is the way to address the issue. If someone wants to change something they can learn to modify the game. Or use existing mods that are available that modify the game to their taste.
Exactly. Or self nerfing by simply adjusting how you use the elements of the game yourself.
>> F) Can't balancing work the other way around? Instead of nerfing items you could make enemies stronger!
Unfortunately no. Usually it's a character or object that needs to be addressed. By making a monster stronger one is affecting the entire game, including those characters or items that are considered balanced and may suddenly become too weak.
That said, I consider BG an easy game to play by today's standards. Under Normal difficulty, with just a couple of days on the forums, a player may find all that is necessary to play at cruise speed. A new generation of game-literate individuals with impressive learning and playing skills that we couldn't dream on when we were their age, plus the experience accumulated over the years by more veteran players, have all contributed to turn BGEE into a happy slugfest.
I remember having an harder time playing this game when it was first released.
So what I am trying to say here is that I find the biggest problem with BGEE is that it is addressing a whole new playerbase and the game difficulty doesn't rake so well. Monsters could be made harder on principle.
But I am strongly against any change of that nature. Only modders should address this problem if they feel like it. One of the things that I find is a real compliment to Overhaul is the fact 15 years later here we are again talking about BG balancing issues. Regardless of being right or wrong, it's beautifully surreal; an year ago we wouldn't dream this would happen. It may border the annoying sometimes. But it's fantastic it's happening all over again. What I don't want is to Overhaul to take anything from it. That's not their job, so to speak.
There is one kind of change to the game that i will always welcome, and that is playability/user friendliness. Making more use of the middle mouse button, a modernized UI, making inventory management less of a clickfest, etc. These things can very easily make an old game much better if done right.
I have struggled to accept changes to items or spells though. Even if the cloak was bugged, their fix didn't make it any less powerful. You simply have to rest to use it again, and that simply makes it annoying. Its a case where it was fine how it was, but i had to go out of my way to mod it back because someone cried loud enough to change it.
Its nice to have the option of making the game easier on yourself by picking a stronger kit, and having the sliding scale behind it too!
If you want to have it easy in BG:EE, just make the main char an Inquisitor, it will make every "hard" fight in the game trivial. Some want it easy, some want it hard.... This game has the best of both!
Learn to enjoy the spirit of singleplayer games! Fuck balance
Like 4/5 of the guys here, I think that nerfing stuff is a total nonsense. But I fail to understand why do you have to hate PvP to appreciate Baldur's Gate like it already is. It seems I belong to the rare race of people that while being a "peeveepeetard" [cit.] can still appreciate it's d&d balance and fights to keep it like that. As many already said, fixing obvious bugs is all that this game needs.
Actually I think it's more like a tradition to make over the top character, activate console commands and tweak character(s) with mods, use the most powerful items in the game and then lament about it in forums. Rather amusing elementary school.
I really don't mind the discussion, cause BG:EE was just a stepping stone to BG2 for me Else I enjoyed the slightly changed content with some more or less new items.
The only thing, that'd makes it IMO a bit OP are the kits, if you plan to import. While you else would've been stuck to the basic classes in vanilla BG1, you now can make truly amazing combos, like in my case Berserker->dualed to Cleric + the advantage of having additional 8 stat-points on top of my roll of 93. Specially while some of the stats counter the penalty in the 4th dream sequence and some of the good decisions in hell. [my original BG1 saves were beyond recovery, so I was always forced to roll a new char in BG2 and I was not a fan of TuTu and alike.]
Further as several times mentioned ^.^ it's a single player game ffs, you still have the option to choose freely what you want - even if some of the Kits (Paladin anyone?) counter most of the very annoying stuff you'll met. Else their full potential is shown only in BG2 or ToB, like the Archer/Inquisitor.
If one finds any item, that is particularly OP..feel free to use Near Infinity, it takes roughly 10 seconds to search for ie Algernons CLoak, select the line, hit delete, save and enjoy or you could also just ignore the special ability ^^
IMO it's not about items and Kits at all, the engine itself has suck major flaws, that - if abused properly - all the "newly" balanced items become a joke. I didn't even know of some of the stuff, only cause I was searching for something BG-related...seriously :> Some 'stuff' involved traps but to some weird extent - not only in the Dragons & staff of Magi encounter - "other" things...feeblemind and alike. Though I try to play fair and square if possible, else I usually'd have no fun in beating the game...and my current game is tweaked/fix-packed + SCSII(TobEX) which removes most of the flaws. (still cloudkill is working as intended...)
I don't feel nerfing/buffing is too important for offline game unless the balance is broken to the extent to the game is unplayable. I think the game it is ok as it - the choice to power game is up to individual player. Unless there are clear ways to improve individual gaming experience via balance changes, I am not sure I will buff/nerf anything in the game. If it ain't broken, don't fix.
The problem of nerfing/buffing should only apply to online game (MMO) as power gamers now do have impacts to other players. Individual gamers' game play experiences are now no longer fully in the hands of individuals, and often dependant on the actions of others.
The AD&D concept of "balance" had more to do with characters having their own niches and no one class being capable of everything. BG is unbalanced in the sense that you can complete the game solo, whereas in a PnP AD&D game no one character could reasonably overcome all challenges.
As far as items and powers, I would say that if an item is so powerful that using it makes the game unchallenging, then it is overpowered. For example, the Shield of Balduran in BG2 changes beholders from one of the toughest enemies in the game which require significant tactical planning to defeat into floating suicide orbs that will kill themselves if you just stand there and let them shoot magic at you for long enough. There is no way for the shield to provide you with an advantage without it being an overwhelming one, so your options become: use the shield and have one of the harder parts of the game handed to you on a silver platter, or don't use the shield at all. If it were changed to reflect 50% of beholder rays, it would become a useful item without completely nerfing beholders themselves.
...so your options become: use the shield and have one of the harder parts of the game handed to you on a silver platter, or don't use the shield at all. If it were changed to reflect 50% of beholder rays, it would become a useful item without completely nerfing beholders themselves.
>> F) Can't balancing work the other way around? Instead of nerfing items you could make enemies stronger!
Unfortunately no. Usually it's a character or object that needs to be addressed. By making a monster stronger one is affecting the entire game, including those characters or items that are considered balanced and may suddenly become too weak.
That said, I consider BG an easy game to play by today's standards. Under Normal difficulty, with just a couple of days on the forums, a player may find all that is necessary to play at cruise speed. A new generation of game-literate individuals with impressive learning and playing skills that we couldn't dream on when we were their age, plus the experience accumulated over the years by more veteran players, have all contributed to turn BGEE into a happy slugfest.
I remember having an harder time playing this game when it was first released.
So what I am trying to say here is that I find the biggest problem with BGEE is that it is addressing a whole new playerbase and the game difficulty doesn't rake so well. Monsters could be made harder on principle.
But I am strongly against any change of that nature. Only modders should address this problem if they feel like it. One of the things that I find is a real compliment to Overhaul is the fact 15 years later here we are again talking about BG balancing issues. Regardless of being right or wrong, it's beautifully surreal; an year ago we wouldn't dream this would happen. It may border the annoying sometimes. But it's fantastic it's happening all over again. What I don't want is to Overhaul to take anything from it. That's not their job, so to speak.
Well, for "making the enemies stronger" I didn't mean to simply pimp their stats and equipment, but mostly to enhance their AI. SCSII was perfect in this (never tried it for BG1).
Comments
A: Yes and no. More on the next question...
A: BG characters should remain as is. I personally (and this is really very personal) don't want to look at BGEE as a game that addresses balancing issues. But simply a game that brings BG into a more modern computer setup. But BGEE did introduce new characters and these should be the ones being targeted for balancing decisions by Overhaul -- and only these.
Mods are an excellent canvas for dealing with any balancing issue in the game. BGEE above all should be as close as possible a facsimile of BG.
C) Is nerfing needed to balance Baldur's Gate 1:EE?
A: I believe so. Dorn requires some in my humble opinion. Edwin could also use some nerfing. The former as a product of Overhaul's effort to balance the game, the latter as the result of a modder efforts. As per b)
D) Has original Baldur's Gate 1 ever been truly balanced?
A: No. Unfortunately the game still has balancing issues, even after the patches. They are less sever then when it was first launched though.
E) Isn't this better to be handled by mods?
A: Precisely. As per
F) Can't balancing work the other way around? Instead of nerfing items you could make enemies stronger!
A: I'll reply to this on a different post...
G) Also, my personal fear is that once when you start down nerfing down things this will start a series of nerf downs. Why? Because when you nerf down item X which is the most powerful item after the nerf down it is weak. So there will be a new most powerful item: Item Y which was originally the second most powerful item, which needs nerfing down, too and so on.
A: Nerfing down an item or character should only be done in the context of a) objects or characters that are generally considered overpowered and b) never to make them weak, but instead making them weaker.
H) What does "Overpowering" (overpowered item/chars/abilities) mean personally for you? When is something overpowered when is it not?
A: When the player community at large agrees. Not when I think it is.
I) When is nerfing down needed and who is to say to which extend?
A: As per H) and only when the overpowering characteristic is clearly visible. For instance, we say Dorn is overpowered. But we have yet to identify precisely what makes him overpowered. Stats,? Equipment? Both?
The extent to which something should be nerfed down is essentially a product of the above and it should become clear once we identify the precise causes of the character or object overpower.
J) Is the difficulty setting of any relevance in relation to overpowering and nerfing?
A: Good question! One that is rarely addressed.
I believe so. On games like BG the difficulty setting should ALWAYS be included on any post complaining about something being too weak or too powerful. It's this context that will indeed help realize if there is a problem.
Sorry for the wall of text. I just felt your post extremely interesting and wanted to bring my personal opinion of every point you make. I'll address F) on a different post however.
Unfortunately no. Usually it's a character or object that needs to be addressed. By making a monster stronger one is affecting the entire game, including those characters or items that are considered balanced and may suddenly become too weak.
That said, I consider BG an easy game to play by today's standards. Under Normal difficulty, with just a couple of days on the forums, a player may find all that is necessary to play at cruise speed. A new generation of game-literate individuals with impressive learning and playing skills that we couldn't dream on when we were their age, plus the experience accumulated over the years by more veteran players, have all contributed to turn BGEE into a happy slugfest.
I remember having an harder time playing this game when it was first released.
So what I am trying to say here is that I find the biggest problem with BGEE is that it is addressing a whole new playerbase and the game difficulty doesn't rake so well. Monsters could be made harder on principle.
But I am strongly against any change of that nature. Only modders should address this problem if they feel like it. One of the things that I find is a real compliment to Overhaul is the fact 15 years later here we are again talking about BG balancing issues. Regardless of being right or wrong, it's beautifully surreal; an year ago we wouldn't dream this would happen. It may border the annoying sometimes. But it's fantastic it's happening all over again. What I don't want is to Overhaul to take anything from it. That's not their job, so to speak.
I have struggled to accept changes to items or spells though. Even if the cloak was bugged, their fix didn't make it any less powerful. You simply have to rest to use it again, and that simply makes it annoying. Its a case where it was fine how it was, but i had to go out of my way to mod it back because someone cried loud enough to change it.
Don't mess with the classics ya know?
If you want to have it easy in BG:EE, just make the main char an Inquisitor, it will make every "hard" fight in the game trivial.
Some want it easy, some want it hard.... This game has the best of both!
Learn to enjoy the spirit of singleplayer games! Fuck balance
But I fail to understand why do you have to hate PvP to appreciate Baldur's Gate like it already is.
It seems I belong to the rare race of people that while being a "peeveepeetard" [cit.] can still appreciate it's d&d balance and fights to keep it like that.
As many already said, fixing obvious bugs is all that this game needs.
Cheers,
A 5 years old PeeVeePee fanboI
Else I enjoyed the slightly changed content with some more or less new items.
The only thing, that'd makes it IMO a bit OP are the kits, if you plan to import. While you else would've been stuck to the basic classes in vanilla BG1, you now can make truly amazing combos, like in my case Berserker->dualed to Cleric + the advantage of having additional 8 stat-points on top of my roll of 93.
Specially while some of the stats counter the penalty in the 4th dream sequence and some of the good decisions in hell.
[my original BG1 saves were beyond recovery, so I was always forced to roll a new char in BG2 and I was not a fan of TuTu and alike.]
Further as several times mentioned ^.^ it's a single player game ffs, you still have the option to choose freely what you want - even if some of the Kits (Paladin anyone?) counter most of the very annoying stuff you'll met. Else their full potential is shown only in BG2 or ToB, like the Archer/Inquisitor.
If one finds any item, that is particularly OP..feel free to use Near Infinity, it takes roughly 10 seconds to search for ie Algernons CLoak, select the line, hit delete, save and enjoy or you could also just ignore the special ability ^^
IMO it's not about items and Kits at all, the engine itself has suck major flaws, that - if abused properly - all the "newly" balanced items become a joke. I didn't even know of some of the stuff, only cause I was searching for something BG-related...seriously :>
Some 'stuff' involved traps but to some weird extent - not only in the Dragons & staff of Magi encounter - "other" things...feeblemind and alike.
Though I try to play fair and square if possible, else I usually'd have no fun in beating the game...and my current game is tweaked/fix-packed + SCSII(TobEX) which removes most of the flaws. (still cloudkill is working as intended...)
erm 0.02$
The problem of nerfing/buffing should only apply to online game (MMO) as power gamers now do have impacts to other players. Individual gamers' game play experiences are now no longer fully in the hands of individuals, and often dependant on the actions of others.
As far as items and powers, I would say that if an item is so powerful that using it makes the game unchallenging, then it is overpowered. For example, the Shield of Balduran in BG2 changes beholders from one of the toughest enemies in the game which require significant tactical planning to defeat into floating suicide orbs that will kill themselves if you just stand there and let them shoot magic at you for long enough. There is no way for the shield to provide you with an advantage without it being an overwhelming one, so your options become: use the shield and have one of the harder parts of the game handed to you on a silver platter, or don't use the shield at all. If it were changed to reflect 50% of beholder rays, it would become a useful item without completely nerfing beholders themselves.