I don't believe anything should be reduced in power. As in life not everything is equal. I do feel some of the classes and kits are so weak that it's difficult to want to play them though. I wouldn't mind seeing some of those classes and kits increased in power. It does seem that the 2nd edition rules lean heavily towards multiclass and duel class characters. Especially the combination of fighter/Ranger with any other class. Pure classes seems to lose out aside from Paladin/Sorcerer/Monk/Barbarian/Berserker. I wouldn't mind seeing buffs to pure Thieves/Rangers/Bards/Druids. I think the only combo people can complain about is the Ranger/Cleric because the spell progression is broken, but apparently it would be to complicated to fix properly so why bother?
Projected image does need a nerf though. Make it so it can't cast other images, use items, and that any spells it casts are used up for you as well (which is what is SUPPOSED to happen).
Berserker enrage - Limit immunity to charm/dom, confusion, sleep, fear, give a +6 bonus to saves vs hold and stun. And that's it. Being angry is not going to do jack-squat against maze, imprisonment or level drain. They don't allow saves, and they by-pass magic resistance, that is reason enough alone that it shouldn't have any effect against those.
Remove GM entirely, make it so single class fighters ONLY can specialize, as per PnP. Dual classed fighters would retain any acquired specialization prior to swapping, but would be unable to specialize in further weapons after regaining their abilities. That includes removing the specialization for all multi-class characters as well as Paladin and rangers.
Give Paladin's their -1 thac0 to evil creatures aura
Give rangers animal companions.
Just to save re-typing it. forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/199915
Correct Bard Song range/duration- 10 ft radius/level, lasts 1 round/level, requires 3 rounds of singing to take effect.
Zanath slow down there buddy! This is a thread about if we should approve of things getting nerfed, and why, as in the logical/ethical implications behind it. You just started a very specific nerf list lol
Sure. I'll accept that as a valid definition of overpowered, though I wouldn't think of it that way, as he's not meant to be played/killed. Plot NPCs such as him and Elminster would be the best examples. However, I like it that the uppity charname can't kill every NPC in the game.
The only time I care about nerfing something that is overpowered is if the fact that it's overpowered hurts the potential fun of it. If it's so overpowered that your only choices are to exploit it or ignore it completely, that's a problem.
For example: Spirit Animals. I think removing their immunity to non-magic weapons in BG1 was a good thing, because otherwise they would be overpowered in a way that wasn't challenging or fun. But not using them means that you can't use a kit that really could/should be quite fun. So your only choices are:
A) Use them, and have an easy-button tank that most enemies can't touch. Don't use them at all. C) Use them, but only in fights where you know there will be magic involved, so that they stand a chance of being hurt/killed.
Compare that to Algernon's cloak. The thread linked to by the OP suggests reducing it to 1 use per day. That's reasonable... But it's also unnecessary. If you think it should only be 1 use per day, then only use it 1 time per day. DONE! If the aspect you find to be overpowered can be kept in check by the user, then show a little self-restraint instead of demanding that it be "fixed".
Oh, and getting back to Spirit Animals for a second, it was suggested that an alternate solution could be to make enemies tougher. If you gave more enemies a magic weapon (or "acts as enchanted" status), then you wouldn't need to nerf the Spirit Animals. But doing that has other repercussions, such as making the spell "Protection from Normal Missiles" much less useful. You have to consider the domino effects of any changes you make.
I think new items and classes etc that are being introduced should be reasonably balanced to make them a good fit with the original and since not everything in their implementation may be apparent at first glance it may be necessary to go back and "fix" them -
For the most part I think the original stuff should be left alone - I was not pleased at all to discover the charm effect on Algernons cloak had been taken from unlimited uses to a single use - for no reason other than to make people play the way others want them to - there is absolutely no legitimate reason for that drastic a cut to an item from the original game that people have played with for decades!
This is excactly the reason I stayed away from mods in the past - every mod maker has his/her own little agenda that they can't help but add to their work reworking their own little pet peeves into or out of the finished product mostly becuase they can and I was really hoping that since this was an "offical" version that we wouldn't see that sort of thing here but it appears I was wrong.
I have a few thoughts on this issue. The devs need to maintain a decent amount of balance of power/utility between various items/spells and npcs as this affects re-playability. Having multiple routes to the end game of relatively similar difficulty means folks will be more willing to explore those alternate routes and therefore find more value in the game. In a game like BG you have the freedom to use OR ignore items/npcs you don't like for whatever reason. Between in game options and mods, folks can craft a game and story that suits them. Some folks want Minsc armed with +5 Full Plate, Girdle of Storm Giant Strength, and a +5 Vorpal 2H sword with the game set on easy. Others want insane difficulty to solo with a naked mage using only "Friends", "Detect Evil" amd "Luck" as his spells. I think the original content shouldn't be altered for balance purposes. New content should be looked at for balance though. However, it's not as important here as in games like MMO's or shooters with a huge mulyiplayer component.
**************************************************************************************************************** This game is an enhanced edition of the original baldur's gate using the 2nd D&d rules.
1) of the ORIGINAL baldur's gate 2) using 2nd D&d rules
All these 'personals opinions' are worthless, stick to the facts;
1) is that a bug? - Yes, Fix it 2) is that a bug? - No, Exit there > **************************************************************************************************************** imho
Some characters, such as Tethtoril are unkillable for plot reasons. I don't think he's a valid example of an overpowered enemy, as this isn't a game where every person and creature is coded to be killed.
I know Tethtoril isn't supposed to be killed, he was meant as an example of an overpowered character. I do think it's fun to try to kill characters that aren't supposed to die though because of the added challenge, but only if it's actually possible for them to be killed. Tethtoril and Elhan are annoying, in my opinion, because they insta-kill the PC and can't seem to be killed without the PC also dying. Other characters, such as Arkanis Gath and some of the demons of BG2, aren't supposed to be killed due to similar plot elements, but can be if you use the right spells and strategies. In my opinion, this makes the game more fun because I can aspire to eventually defeat them once I get powerful enough and find the right strategy to use.
As for Tethtoril's death breaking the game, there is another mage in Candlekeep named Unguent (not sure on spelling) who can be killed, but shows up to talk to you in Chapter 6 regardless. I guess this would be similar to killing Drizzt in BG1 and then meeting him in BG2 and talking to him about how you killed him and took his stuff. It doesn't seem to make sense, yet you can do it and could probably be explained away as a resurrection at a local temple.
Perhaps the nerf to Algernon's Cloak is an intentional attempt to push the boundaries of contract limitations?
I have to agree with @Wanderon above; there's keeping new stuff in line with the existing content, and then there's changing an established (for 14 years) item out of what can be perceived as sheer pettiness or some other base motivation.
I did have hope that BG:EE would be the Baldur's Gate I could run sans mods, but between this nerf of an item that I always forget to use, and the appalling lack of Celestial Furies on discount in Winthrop's Candlekeep Inn shop—well, I never!
(Ah, the cheese I developed—oft with Yoshimo's help on the spike trap front—to score Celestial Fury ASAP after departing Gaelan Bayle's humble abode. Even if I wasn't using katanas I just enjoyed making off with that sword and leaving that compound all abuzz about my derring-do. Power Word: Reload + spike traps = cheese to write home about!)
The constant whining about "nerf this, nerf that" honestly makes me mad. Not just like miffed, but legitimately angry. 14 years of success. FOURTEEN YEARS. I understand wanting to fix things that are actually broken in the true sense of the world, IE not working as intended. Add content, too.
But seriously, people saying things like "NERF MAGIC, IT'S TOO STRONG" is just.... ugh. Ugh.
Even if we made the game follow exactly like the 2nd Edition AD&D ruleset for Items, NPCs, Spells, Kits etc, Its still going to add debates about strengthening and nerfing things down as one person will prolly find yet based exactly like the ruleset and following it, something is still going to seem too powerful or too cheesy or too weak etc and can still say the ruleset is not balanced at all.
The modders have made the game quite based exactly like the 2nd Edition ruleset and I found the game to be balanced just like the P&P. It was like having a P&P game without having to spend hours and days making a scenario to follow and filling out character sheets. Thats my perferred way to play to have mods fix the game so its exactly based off the 2nd Edition AD&D ruleset for a interesting and continuously replay feel of it.
As forums and games are always conflicting with opinions. The overpower and nerfing issues will never cease. Someone will always coem along and yes the majority of these complainers are kids, but I have seen some adults state their claims too. It did bring down WoW to is soon to be dying days but yet holds strong. But regardless. Nothing and no one can and will ever be perfect.
Lets see how making this game have the exact 100% copied ruleset of 2nd Edition AD&D and see just how much of the complaining can cease. If thats what most want, give it to them and see how thinsg go for a while.
Far as I know, every mod on Gibberlings3 and Pocket Plane Group, follow the P&P ruleset with options to revise and tweak things to make for a different play style like spell revisions and item revisions make some spells worth casting again and change them into more appropriate doings and balancing the items and fixing them up or making them more reliable etc.
If we could go back in time and give these new bonuses like the shield revision giving bigger shields more AC and changing Know Alignment to Know Opponent. Im sure Gary Gygax would be pleased to implement these much better ideas into his 2nd edition making for a more interesting experience to play through for its natural to instinct a person is evil rather than to cast a spell to find hes evil. In my opinion I perfer the new spell and item changes in the game. Makes for a even more advanced D&D feel. But to some, it doesnt feel like a vanilla exp[erience. It has to be balanced or in some perfectionists... "PERFECT"
I would have to side with the anti-nerf group here. I mean sure it is one thing if you are balancing out a multiplayer game. That actually makes a LOT of sense. But this is not a multiplayer game at its core! What is the point of a GAME anyway people? FUN! ENTERTAINMENT! ENJOYMENT! It is NOT supposed to be this thing that drives people nuts with how hard/easy it is and makes them angry or upset. My point here is this: TO EACH HIS/HER OWN! It is a great thing we have here in BG that we can each choose our own way to play! IF YOU NERF EVERYTHING, YOU CAN'T HAVE THIS!!!! Instead you would be effectively forcing everyone to play YOUR way. My solution to this debate is simple: If you hate elements that you think are overpowered then DON"T FRIGGIN USE THEM!!! It is that EASY and you would not be taking away other peoples fun! If you think stuff should be nerfed then nerf it yourself! I do it all the time! People who want all the player characters power to be taken away are simply advocating (whether they realize it or not) LINEAR PLAY! That is the BEAUTY of difficulty settings. You can choose YOUR OWN way to play! There is ABSOLUTELY no need to FORCE everyone to play YOUR way! Think about it people.
A) Should they be nerfed? Hell no! This is not a PVP game, I believe the only reason games should ever have nerfing/balance is when it needs to be competitive in multiplayer. In singleplayer, if 1 ability is too powerful, then make the other abilities just as powerful! I hate seeing stuff watered down.
Why? How do you justify nerfing down? I don’t. Like I said, make everything cheesy, and quadruple the HP and damage of monsters!
C) Is nerfing needed to balance Baldur's Gate 1:EE? Nope. Vanilla BG is already too easy, I would much rather see focus directed towards improving the AI of creatures – given that enemy adventuring parties have access to the exact same abilities and items you do, just give them more items and make their spell selection better!
D) Has original Baldur's Gate 1 ever been truly balanced? I don’t believe so, magic has always been OMGWTFBBQ. However, each class has its dominance in certain situations, and I try and use all of them. Like using a thief as an opener to spinescrape enemy magi, then dumping a fireball and crisping most enemies, and sending in the fighters to do cleanup and rip apart the archers.
E) Isn't this better to be handled by mods? I’d like to see the game have greater AI implemented and enemies given lots of pots and items, however I understand the contract limitations, so I’m hanging out for SCS badly.
F) Can't balancing work the other way around? Instead of nerfing items you could make enemies stronger! See point A and B!
G) Also, my personal fear is that once when you start down nerfing down things this will start a series of nerf downs. Totally agreed, once it begins where will it end? There’s a reason this game has remained popular for 10+ years, don’t try and fix it because it’s not f*cing broken!
H) What does "Overpowering" (overpowered item/chars/abilities) mean personally for you? In general gaming terms, when an ability/class/thing is more likely to let you win in an easy and hard to beat way, such as a sniper scope that fires itself and can shoot through walls with x-ray vision. Specifically to BG/BG2, remember that you can make mage-killing warriors – fighters that have drunk magic resistance potions, hasted, with poison weapons and a breach wand. Mods should chuck more of those bad boys in when captain kensage starts running around athkatla willy-nilly! Overpowered means there isn’t a viable or realistic counter. I challenge that in BG, everything has a counter, you just need to think outside the square!
I) When is nerfing down needed and who is to say to which extend? NEEEEEVVVVEEEERRRRR!!!!!!! If someone isn’t happy with the balance, create a mod. Don’t impose it on the rest of us masochists!
J) Is the difficulty setting of any relevance in relation to overpowering and nerfing? SCS/SCS2 is brilliant in this regard, as it ties the difficulty slighter to the SMARTNESS OF THE AI! In vanilla it just increases the damage output, makes crits and permanent death more likely, and makes it more frustrating to roll HP dice on levelup. I love SCS/SCS2, it actually increases the intelligence, rather than stupid across the board damage increases. I personally would like to see this go one extra, and when the difficulty is racked up, it increases the chance of spawning high level enemies on random encounters, spawn more enemies in packs, and increase the deadliness of an enemy’s arsenal – they start carrying arrows of detonation, greater wyverns and dopplegangers spawn (BG1), and you get set upon by a family of dragons late game (BG2).
Sorry for the TLDR, I feel very strongly about this topic.
I agree with Tresset and Colonel_Burger. People need to stop forcing others to change things because they dont like it. They pretty much made the post of the centery. We all cant follow ones footsteps. He is right. if something is too much. Dont do whatever with it anymore, walk away, play something else, dont touch it etc.
Yes most of the mods that PPG and G3 and many others have made are infact the purpose to stop these complainers about lack of NPCs, Spells too powerful, Items too weak, Armors not scaling etc etc and they continuously go through these complaints that things STILL arent enough.
So what is enough for these complainers? What is a truly balanced game to these people? why do they not understand what Fantasy means? What will it take to make these complainers happy without having to tick off the ones who find the game is absoulutely fine. I personally think the game is fine as i said before its like a P&P scenario without having to waste time making one. I mod the game a bit to make it feel my own set of 2nd edition rules. But i still play the game generally how it is and find it challenging. Ok i can agree time stop and chain contingencys and horrid whilting and spell immunity etc etc is outrageous. But even if I can kill Mellisan before she can get ready, well thats one insightful sage to beat her with the faster trigger finger to unleash his/her onslaught.
How does Mellisan feel about being outpowered? Every evil person on the planet or those who hate being trampled under others power are those who complain about it! So you couldnt figure out hwo to do such things others can, well thats the limits of everyones talent. Some are just better at things than others are and we have to respect that. Everyone can be what they want to be if you put your mind and thought into it. If you cant put the effort and time into it. Well complaining about it just ruins it for youa nd many others. Look at World of Warcraft and how much people whined and cried to make the game the way it is today! Many years ago it was such a chore and a prideful effort to get to the end of the game in Vanilla WoW. Now everything is just given to you and you dont even have to walk for the effort. How fun is that people REALLY?
All this complaining and flaming and bickering and bannings and this and that are making forums, games, multiplayers and such boring and no longer fun anymore. Everyones going to fight and whine about something yes, but some just dont look at the aspect of things an why they are made that way. If something changes. Its going to be either less fun or its just gonna affect alot more than you think it will. It may be great for you. But if you want something done, work for it and earn it or do it yourself and tweak it to your own flavors, but dont go crying about it all over the forums and making other people mad and flame them to the blame where they get the fingers pointed at.
Its like opinions. Everyones got one and not everyone will accept them. If you dont accept them. Some fight or get mad. But lets face it. Everyones opinions and ideas stink and smell nice. Were human after all. But fighting all over this place is just the reason why some forums shut down and why some games lose their flare, because some people just dont want to respect a game for what it is and just enjoy it and tweak it once your done so its within your favor. Thats why these modders made these mods with optional parts to it. Install your flavor of mods for your flavorable comfortable fun way of gaming. Either you pwerhouse and expect to the the better of all betters because you hate being weak and pitful like you are, or you play the game with respect and respect everything else around you and work together and use your mind to survive or simply you just point click and expect random results each click you do.
Everyone has their own flavor. Stop telling people to buy your flavor ice cream or smering youes into theirs. Its just not right and youll only complicate things for these modders who which you dont seem to respect the work they do, make them work hrder just to fill everyones need of gaming hunger. Even these modders I bet are at the point....
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH FROM YOU COMPLINERS!!! Play the game and enjoy it and mod it how these modders have worked it for each type of gamer out there. Im sure every complaint has been addressed to every mod. It just seems all these complaints are repeats of the same thing people complain about for the past 14 years now since the game first came out. It just never stops no matter how many versions of mods come out. Someone will always step up to antagonize anothers work of art and wont stop with the childishness. If you want it done. Do it your way and let everyone else in the forums try and benefit and help factor the game in ways everyone can enjoy including YOU!!!
@colonel_burger I too yearn for SCS. To challenge myself, I'm running a group of thieves, as a solo run or an evil run (Viconia, Kagain, Edwin, Shar-Teel, Dorn) would bore me.
Most people asking for nerfs are WoWtards that think this is an mmo and complain because their solo Mage can't do as well as their solo fighter; therefore, fighters clearly need to be nerfed and mages need a buff!!!
They don't realize that this is a game based in AD&D 2nd edition rules. Meh, i know i'm wasting my time, they will continue to cry "NERF!!! BUFF!!!" and possibly ask for a new space-goat race.
I do not disagree with you. I have experienced an additional issue though:
People who demand that Baldur's Gate should be an EXACT one-to-one implementation of the AD&D 2nd edition rules with NO exceptions whatsoever...
I do not know if Baldur's Gate is meant to be that way. It would probably interesting to see such a video game. But has Baldur's Gate to be changed for that for everyone because some people want it?
Personally I think any video game will have a hard time to implement the rules one-to-one without no exceptions. Or would such a game be possible to be made?
Can a video game be the exact same experience like a tabletop Pen&Paper game? Should it be?
I said Baldur's Gate was BASED on AD&D 2nd edition rules. I never said it was a faithful copy.
My point was that, being based on AD&D 2nd ed. rules, classes are not meant to be balanced between them. That's what most people don't get. They expected to play Diablo and their minds are struggling and failing to comprehend how Baldur's Gate is meant to be played.
I did not mean you It was someone else I had in mind.
As I said I do not disagree with you, but currently I see three fractions:
A) The ones who like BG(:EE) more or less as it is The ones you mentioned, typical MMORPG players C) Pen&Paper players who think the BG series has to be an EXACT implementation of the 2nd AD&D rules
You are probly right, but tbh i don't know many "C" people. I remember back in the day, everyone was "A". Seems like now most are "B". Sad, sad days we live in...
I would be an "A" people. BG:EE has been remade, more or less, exactly how I would have done it. My only complaints are admittedly quite minor and possibly even negligible.
I have noticed, in my video gaming "career", that remakes and sequels are common things in the video game industry. However, to me at least, The sign of a truly LEGENDARY game is as follows: It gets not so much a remake but a refurbishing. If a game gets resurrected, fixed up, and modernized so that modern machines can run it, yet the in game mechanics are, more or less, unchanged, and It can STILL be as successful as the original, then you have a true legend among video games on your hands. VERY few video games, of the top of my head, ever get this honor. Myst, Pokemon(not sure that one counts though), and Baldur's Gate are the only ones I can think of right now. Ask yourselves this: If Baldur's Gate were SO thoroughly unbalanced as to be a detriment to its popularity, then would an entrepreneurial businessman have picked it up and thought to themselves "I could really make some money off of this and I wouldn't even have to change it much at all!"? My answer is a clear no.
I don't understand people who complain about "overpowered" stuff. It's single player game, for Christ sake. And crying for nerfs NEVER served good ANY game. Just look on Battlefield3 - na matter what, there will always be a bunch of whiners, crying for nerfs - and developers want to please them, destroying game more and more...
Stop "balancing" mechanic in single player game. Let the developers work on more important things (like bugfixes), than on stupid Algernons Cloak or whatever.
@ARKdeEREH, @Nazad - a side note on Tethtoril and him being unkillable - "Although he doesn't know it, Tethtoril is one of the safest people in all the Realms, three deities will protect him against any attack" I swear I had read that in a BG manual somewhere, but cant' find it in my BG:EE manual or the GOG.com version. A google search got me this though, which confirmed what I remembered:
There are quite a few bugs with various abilities/spells/kits/items that i would like to see done before anyone even thinks of nerfs. As to the need for nerfs themselves, they're entirely unnecessary for this type of game and most likely a huge waste of time.
I would however like to see some class unique items that would help out some of the less played classes - elven/mithril mail for bards for example.
A larger variety of magical weapons , clubs ect come to mind, i believe there is only one and it is a Club +1 with +3vs unnatural creatures, there are 0 magic clubs other then that 1. dont quote me on that though... Also fairly sure there are only +1 versions of flails and morning stars.
I think modding is the way to address the issue. If someone wants to change something they can learn to modify the game. Or use existing mods that are available that modify the game to their taste.
Comments
Berserker enrage - Limit immunity to charm/dom, confusion, sleep, fear, give a +6 bonus to saves vs hold and stun. And that's it. Being angry is not going to do jack-squat against maze, imprisonment or level drain. They don't allow saves, and they by-pass magic resistance, that is reason enough alone that it shouldn't have any effect against those.
Remove GM entirely, make it so single class fighters ONLY can specialize, as per PnP. Dual classed fighters would retain any acquired specialization prior to swapping, but would be unable to specialize in further weapons after regaining their abilities. That includes removing the specialization for all multi-class characters as well as Paladin and rangers.
Give Paladin's their -1 thac0 to evil creatures aura
Give rangers animal companions.
Just to save re-typing it. forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/199915
Correct Bard Song range/duration- 10 ft radius/level, lasts 1 round/level, requires 3 rounds of singing to take effect.
For example: Spirit Animals. I think removing their immunity to non-magic weapons in BG1 was a good thing, because otherwise they would be overpowered in a way that wasn't challenging or fun. But not using them means that you can't use a kit that really could/should be quite fun. So your only choices are:
A) Use them, and have an easy-button tank that most enemies can't touch.
C) Use them, but only in fights where you know there will be magic involved, so that they stand a chance of being hurt/killed.
Compare that to Algernon's cloak. The thread linked to by the OP suggests reducing it to 1 use per day. That's reasonable... But it's also unnecessary. If you think it should only be 1 use per day, then only use it 1 time per day. DONE! If the aspect you find to be overpowered can be kept in check by the user, then show a little self-restraint instead of demanding that it be "fixed".
Oh, and getting back to Spirit Animals for a second, it was suggested that an alternate solution could be to make enemies tougher. If you gave more enemies a magic weapon (or "acts as enchanted" status), then you wouldn't need to nerf the Spirit Animals. But doing that has other repercussions, such as making the spell "Protection from Normal Missiles" much less useful. You have to consider the domino effects of any changes you make.
For the most part I think the original stuff should be left alone - I was not pleased at all to discover the charm effect on Algernons cloak had been taken from unlimited uses to a single use - for no reason other than to make people play the way others want them to - there is absolutely no legitimate reason for that drastic a cut to an item from the original game that people have played with for decades!
This is excactly the reason I stayed away from mods in the past - every mod maker has his/her own little agenda that they can't help but add to their work reworking their own little pet peeves into or out of the finished product mostly becuase they can and I was really hoping that since this was an "offical" version that we wouldn't see that sort of thing here but it appears I was wrong.
The devs need to maintain a decent amount of balance of power/utility between various items/spells and npcs as this affects re-playability. Having multiple routes to the end game of relatively similar difficulty means folks will be more willing to explore those alternate routes and therefore find more value in the game.
In a game like BG you have the freedom to use OR ignore items/npcs you don't like for whatever reason. Between in game options and mods, folks can craft a game and story that suits them. Some folks want Minsc armed with +5 Full Plate, Girdle of Storm Giant Strength, and a +5 Vorpal 2H sword with the game set on easy. Others want insane difficulty to solo with a naked mage using only "Friends", "Detect Evil" amd "Luck" as his spells.
I think the original content shouldn't be altered for balance purposes. New content should be looked at for balance though. However, it's not as important here as in games like MMO's or shooters with a huge mulyiplayer component.
This game is an enhanced edition of the original baldur's gate using the 2nd D&d rules.
1) of the ORIGINAL baldur's gate
2) using 2nd D&d rules
All these 'personals opinions' are worthless, stick to the facts;
1) is that a bug? - Yes, Fix it
2) is that a bug? - No, Exit there >
****************************************************************************************************************
imho
As for Tethtoril's death breaking the game, there is another mage in Candlekeep named Unguent (not sure on spelling) who can be killed, but shows up to talk to you in Chapter 6 regardless. I guess this would be similar to killing Drizzt in BG1 and then meeting him in BG2 and talking to him about how you killed him and took his stuff. It doesn't seem to make sense, yet you can do it and could probably be explained away as a resurrection at a local temple.
I have to agree with @Wanderon above; there's keeping new stuff in line with the existing content, and then there's changing an established (for 14 years) item out of what can be perceived as sheer pettiness or some other base motivation.
I did have hope that BG:EE would be the Baldur's Gate I could run sans mods, but between this nerf of an item that I always forget to use, and the appalling lack of Celestial Furies on discount in Winthrop's Candlekeep Inn shop—well, I never!
(Ah, the cheese I developed—oft with Yoshimo's help on the spike trap front—to score Celestial Fury ASAP after departing Gaelan Bayle's humble abode. Even if I wasn't using katanas I just enjoyed making off with that sword and leaving that compound all abuzz about my derring-do. Power Word: Reload + spike traps = cheese to write home about!)
But seriously, people saying things like "NERF MAGIC, IT'S TOO STRONG" is just.... ugh. Ugh.
The modders have made the game quite based exactly like the 2nd Edition ruleset and I found the game to be balanced just like the P&P. It was like having a P&P game without having to spend hours and days making a scenario to follow and filling out character sheets. Thats my perferred way to play to have mods fix the game so its exactly based off the 2nd Edition AD&D ruleset for a interesting and continuously replay feel of it.
As forums and games are always conflicting with opinions. The overpower and nerfing issues will never cease. Someone will always coem along and yes the majority of these complainers are kids, but I have seen some adults state their claims too. It did bring down WoW to is soon to be dying days but yet holds strong. But regardless. Nothing and no one can and will ever be perfect.
Lets see how making this game have the exact 100% copied ruleset of 2nd Edition AD&D and see just how much of the complaining can cease. If thats what most want, give it to them and see how thinsg go for a while.
Far as I know, every mod on Gibberlings3 and Pocket Plane Group, follow the P&P ruleset with options to revise and tweak things to make for a different play style like spell revisions and item revisions make some spells worth casting again and change them into more appropriate doings and balancing the items and fixing them up or making them more reliable etc.
If we could go back in time and give these new bonuses like the shield revision giving bigger shields more AC and changing Know Alignment to Know Opponent. Im sure Gary Gygax would be pleased to implement these much better ideas into his 2nd edition making for a more interesting experience to play through for its natural to instinct a person is evil rather than to cast a spell to find hes evil. In my opinion I perfer the new spell and item changes in the game. Makes for a even more advanced D&D feel. But to some, it doesnt feel like a vanilla exp[erience. It has to be balanced or in some perfectionists... "PERFECT"
I feel like I cheated my way through the game using the boots on my Stalker but just couldn't bring myself to not use them..
I talk like Ike don't I?
A) Should they be nerfed?
Hell no! This is not a PVP game, I believe the only reason games should ever have nerfing/balance is when it needs to be competitive in multiplayer. In singleplayer, if 1 ability is too powerful, then make the other abilities just as powerful! I hate seeing stuff watered down.
I don’t. Like I said, make everything cheesy, and quadruple the HP and damage of monsters!
C) Is nerfing needed to balance Baldur's Gate 1:EE?
Nope. Vanilla BG is already too easy, I would much rather see focus directed towards improving the AI of creatures – given that enemy adventuring parties have access to the exact same abilities and items you do, just give them more items and make their spell selection better!
D) Has original Baldur's Gate 1 ever been truly balanced?
I don’t believe so, magic has always been OMGWTFBBQ. However, each class has its dominance in certain situations, and I try and use all of them. Like using a thief as an opener to spinescrape enemy magi, then dumping a fireball and crisping most enemies, and sending in the fighters to do cleanup and rip apart the archers.
E) Isn't this better to be handled by mods?
I’d like to see the game have greater AI implemented and enemies given lots of pots and items, however I understand the contract limitations, so I’m hanging out for SCS badly.
F) Can't balancing work the other way around? Instead of nerfing items you could make enemies stronger!
See point A and B!
G) Also, my personal fear is that once when you start down nerfing down things this will start a series of nerf downs.
Totally agreed, once it begins where will it end? There’s a reason this game has remained popular for 10+ years, don’t try and fix it because it’s not f*cing broken!
H) What does "Overpowering" (overpowered item/chars/abilities) mean personally for you?
In general gaming terms, when an ability/class/thing is more likely to let you win in an easy and hard to beat way, such as a sniper scope that fires itself and can shoot through walls with x-ray vision. Specifically to BG/BG2, remember that you can make mage-killing warriors – fighters that have drunk magic resistance potions, hasted, with poison weapons and a breach wand. Mods should chuck more of those bad boys in when captain kensage starts running around athkatla willy-nilly!
Overpowered means there isn’t a viable or realistic counter. I challenge that in BG, everything has a counter, you just need to think outside the square!
I) When is nerfing down needed and who is to say to which extend?
NEEEEEVVVVEEEERRRRR!!!!!!! If someone isn’t happy with the balance, create a mod. Don’t impose it on the rest of us masochists!
J) Is the difficulty setting of any relevance in relation to overpowering and nerfing?
SCS/SCS2 is brilliant in this regard, as it ties the difficulty slighter to the SMARTNESS OF THE AI! In vanilla it just increases the damage output, makes crits and permanent death more likely, and makes it more frustrating to roll HP dice on levelup. I love SCS/SCS2, it actually increases the intelligence, rather than stupid across the board damage increases.
I personally would like to see this go one extra, and when the difficulty is racked up, it increases the chance of spawning high level enemies on random encounters, spawn more enemies in packs, and increase the deadliness of an enemy’s arsenal – they start carrying arrows of detonation, greater wyverns and dopplegangers spawn (BG1), and you get set upon by a family of dragons late game (BG2).
Sorry for the TLDR, I feel very strongly about this topic.
Yes most of the mods that PPG and G3 and many others have made are infact the purpose to stop these complainers about lack of NPCs, Spells too powerful, Items too weak, Armors not scaling etc etc and they continuously go through these complaints that things STILL arent enough.
So what is enough for these complainers? What is a truly balanced game to these people? why do they not understand what Fantasy means? What will it take to make these complainers happy without having to tick off the ones who find the game is absoulutely fine. I personally think the game is fine as i said before its like a P&P scenario without having to waste time making one. I mod the game a bit to make it feel my own set of 2nd edition rules. But i still play the game generally how it is and find it challenging. Ok i can agree time stop and chain contingencys and horrid whilting and spell immunity etc etc is outrageous. But even if I can kill Mellisan before she can get ready, well thats one insightful sage to beat her with the faster trigger finger to unleash his/her onslaught.
How does Mellisan feel about being outpowered? Every evil person on the planet or those who hate being trampled under others power are those who complain about it! So you couldnt figure out hwo to do such things others can, well thats the limits of everyones talent. Some are just better at things than others are and we have to respect that. Everyone can be what they want to be if you put your mind and thought into it. If you cant put the effort and time into it. Well complaining about it just ruins it for youa nd many others. Look at World of Warcraft and how much people whined and cried to make the game the way it is today! Many years ago it was such a chore and a prideful effort to get to the end of the game in Vanilla WoW. Now everything is just given to you and you dont even have to walk for the effort. How fun is that people REALLY?
All this complaining and flaming and bickering and bannings and this and that are making forums, games, multiplayers and such boring and no longer fun anymore. Everyones going to fight and whine about something yes, but some just dont look at the aspect of things an why they are made that way. If something changes. Its going to be either less fun or its just gonna affect alot more than you think it will. It may be great for you. But if you want something done, work for it and earn it or do it yourself and tweak it to your own flavors, but dont go crying about it all over the forums and making other people mad and flame them to the blame where they get the fingers pointed at.
Its like opinions. Everyones got one and not everyone will accept them. If you dont accept them. Some fight or get mad. But lets face it. Everyones opinions and ideas stink and smell nice. Were human after all. But fighting all over this place is just the reason why some forums shut down and why some games lose their flare, because some people just dont want to respect a game for what it is and just enjoy it and tweak it once your done so its within your favor. Thats why these modders made these mods with optional parts to it. Install your flavor of mods for your flavorable comfortable fun way of gaming. Either you pwerhouse and expect to the the better of all betters because you hate being weak and pitful like you are, or you play the game with respect and respect everything else around you and work together and use your mind to survive or simply you just point click and expect random results each click you do.
Everyone has their own flavor. Stop telling people to buy your flavor ice cream or smering youes into theirs. Its just not right and youll only complicate things for these modders who which you dont seem to respect the work they do, make them work hrder just to fill everyones need of gaming hunger. Even these modders I bet are at the point....
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH FROM YOU COMPLINERS!!! Play the game and enjoy it and mod it how these modders have worked it for each type of gamer out there. Im sure every complaint has been addressed to every mod. It just seems all these complaints are repeats of the same thing people complain about for the past 14 years now since the game first came out. It just never stops no matter how many versions of mods come out. Someone will always step up to antagonize anothers work of art and wont stop with the childishness. If you want it done. Do it your way and let everyone else in the forums try and benefit and help factor the game in ways everyone can enjoy including YOU!!!
They don't realize that this is a game based in AD&D 2nd edition rules. Meh, i know i'm wasting my time, they will continue to cry "NERF!!! BUFF!!!" and possibly ask for a new space-goat race.
My point was that, being based on AD&D 2nd ed. rules, classes are not meant to be balanced between them. That's what most people don't get. They expected to play Diablo and their minds are struggling and failing to comprehend how Baldur's Gate is meant to be played.
I have noticed, in my video gaming "career", that remakes and sequels are common things in the video game industry. However, to me at least, The sign of a truly LEGENDARY game is as follows: It gets not so much a remake but a refurbishing. If a game gets resurrected, fixed up, and modernized so that modern machines can run it, yet the in game mechanics are, more or less, unchanged, and It can STILL be as successful as the original, then you have a true legend among video games on your hands. VERY few video games, of the top of my head, ever get this honor. Myst, Pokemon(not sure that one counts though), and Baldur's Gate are the only ones I can think of right now. Ask yourselves this: If Baldur's Gate were SO thoroughly unbalanced as to be a detriment to its popularity, then would an entrepreneurial businessman have picked it up and thought to themselves "I could really make some money off of this and I wouldn't even have to change it much at all!"? My answer is a clear no.
And crying for nerfs NEVER served good ANY game. Just look on Battlefield3 - na matter what, there will always be a bunch of whiners, crying for nerfs - and developers want to please them, destroying game more and more...
Stop "balancing" mechanic in single player game.
Let the developers work on more important things (like bugfixes), than on stupid Algernons Cloak or whatever.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tethtoril
http://theswordcoast.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=faction&action=display&thread=2834&page=2
http://www.scribd.com/doc/50481097/Volo-s-Guide-to-Sword-coast (bottom of page 224)
I would however like to see some class unique items that would help out some of the less played classes - elven/mithril mail for bards for example.
A larger variety of magical weapons , clubs ect come to mind, i believe there is only one and it is a Club +1 with +3vs unnatural creatures, there are 0 magic clubs other then that 1. dont quote me on that though...
Also fairly sure there are only +1 versions of flails and morning stars.