I assume with Keldorn that he has some experience with drow given his profession and his long service as a paladin. I kind of assume he has had to deal with the broken families who lost their children, husband, wife, mother, father, etc. from a vicious and unprovoked attack by a Drow raiding party. Now he associates that kind of cruelty with drow - especially those that radiate evil. Why not be like that with Drizzt? Well, he radiates good and has a well-known track record of being the exception that proves the rule.
The comparison with Nazi's is an interesting one for the reasons the poster mentioned on page 2 of this thread...i.e., that most of the evil was being driven by a small % of the total German population. In Forgotten Realms lore, it isn't a small % of the drow population that embraces cruelty, evil, etc. It is a very small % of the population that doesn't. That is why there isn't a good real life analog to the drow - because there is no ethnic, national, or other group of people in real life that actually embrace this type of cruelty from the top to the bottom levels of society.
It is hard not to approach from our real life view about the dangers of stereotyping (including the one referenced earlier in the thread about the free reign in modern hollywood to bash southerners like they used to bash minority groups), but I think there is a real difference between the real life and Forgotten Realms backgrounds on this.
The comparison with Nazi's is an interesting one for the reasons the poster mentioned on page 2 of this thread...i.e., that most of the evil was being driven by a small % of the total German population. In Forgotten Realms lore, it isn't a small % of the drow population that embraces cruelty, evil, etc. It is a very small % of the population that doesn't. That is why there isn't a good real life analog to the drow - because there is no ethnic, national, or other group of people in real life that actually embrace this type of cruelty from the top to the bottom levels of society.
I think this is an excellent point.
In the real world it's not that hard not to be racist. Because of the (modern) knowledge that there are no races that are inherently evil (I assume we agree on this ). In all races "good" (at least not evil) people form a large majority. The others are the exception.
But the drow are inherently evil, with the likes of Drizzt and Viconia being exceptions, expelled from their own people because of this. Distrusting a drow because he is a drow seems a very sensible thing to do.
The one inconsistency I find in Viconia actions is the fact she doesn't react to a male abusing her verbally. The Drow is a matriarchal society where men are viewed as inferior and subordinates. The gender aspect is is at the core of this society. And yet she endures Kivan's abuse. I find this a tad bit disappointing about her.
As for the racism talk in this thread... I confess it bores me. Fantasy (Science Fiction in general) is full of prejudice of one race towards another, regardless of Alignment considerations (being good or evil has nothing to do with it). Racial prejudice fuels the story and has been the background of some of the greatest works in literature, since Tolkien. I find nothing offensive about it. And it surprises me it is a matter of debate, as if somehow we felt the need to justify racial prejudice between fantasy races in a work of literature.
Helias, let me ask you this. You say that there are no races that are inherently evil. To which I concurr. Yet the Tutsi and Hutu, who were once geneticly different but are not considered to be now, fought a race war a few years back. An odd million perished. If you were to ask thier opions on the subject of race and evil, do you feel you would get a different answer?
Not an appropriate comment? Is the disucssion only about fantasy racism? Glad I've been reading this thread. I've learned a lot about reality.
But the drow are inherently evil, with the likes of Drizzt and Viconia being exceptions, expelled from their own people because of this. Distrusting a drow because he is a drow seems a very sensible thing to do.
Not inherently, there is nothing in FR lore to suggest that Drow are "born" evil. Their society does condition them to be so from a very young age.
That being said, mistrust and/or hatred of dark elves because they are dark elves is sensible compared to real world racism.
Viconia IS evil in Baldurs Gate. She isn't all physco like Tiax. She doesn't seem to enjoy inflicting pain and suffering for the sake of it compared to other drow.
BUT
She would kill you and your family if it was going to help her out. She isn't "kind" she isn't "noble" she doesn't "care" about others unless it benefits her directly.
She also sees kindness and caring as a weakness.
If you romance her you can turn her into a live and let live true neutral character. She still isn't going to start saving the innocent for the sake of it.
@and_then_or For someone who wants the topic gone you've stuck around for a fair while. You also seem to be abnormally defensive on the topic of racism, especially considering it's not even "real" racism and is more a topic on character development and storyline that's generating some good discussion. What's your story?
Captian, I like the cut of your jib. That is madness I see.
My story is simple, boring, and not worth your time. Trust me.
Rasism is a powerfull word. It is also a crime in this country. I metion it is a crime to illustrate how critical the discussion is. When the word is belittled and neutered an injustice is done. It is also cowardly to hide behind art when art is the great act of love and intelligence humanity can endeavour. Art can be the great illuminator. These are the issues I have w/
Childish banter over the subjects which define civilizations and the course they will take should be addressed. There is another thread in this forum about the omission of the Nietzche quote in the game opening. I think that quote is powerful and helps define this what BG is about. I view BG as a seminal piece of art.
As far as sticking around, yes I obviously made it a point to. If rdarken wants to discuss racism, lets. Let us look into the abyss of human madness and suffering. Is there any word which sums that up more than racism? Is there nothing more enraging than the sensless suffing man visits upon man?
Maybe it is kind of like how many white religious people would be considered by many to be Lawful Good, but you put one black guy in the room and all of a sudden you start hearing racist remarks or a general unwariness of the black individual.
It's really messed up and hypocritical, but humans fear and hate what they do not understand.
If you succeed in charming the Flaming Fist Mercenary chasing Viconia in BG1, he will announce in grief that Viconia (or a Drow, at least) was responsible for the murder of his loved ones.
Viconia is evil, but she is portrayed positively because she is evil as a product of her position in society. Due to being rejected by the surface world, Viconia is forced to act in her own interests, and behaves as mercilessly towards others as they do towards her. These moral acts are not always choices she has made, but rather ones that racism in society forces her to make.
It's kind of like Elphaba in Wicked (the Musical), if that helps at all.
Viconia's constant need for self-reliance has hardened her and made her emotionally distant, often prompting her to encourage the protagonist to make evil choices out of a lack of empathy. Interestingly, however, if one has her around at the time when Yoshimo's questline is ultimately revealed, Viconia is one of the very few companions who will forgive him or try to understand him, as she too was forced to live a life not of her own choice.
There's also racism against Viconia in the Inn of the Seven Vales in Waukeen's Promenade, from Elhan and the other elves when you emerge from the Underdark, in many interactions with Keldorn and Korgan, and alluded to by the Svirfneblin if you have Viconia in your party when you talk to them. There are probably others that I'm not thinking of right now too. I always have Viconia listed first in my party, so she is the default when talking to other characters, which causes some of the anti-drow sentiment to be more noticeable.
In response to people saying that burning Viconia at the stake is somehow lawful good, is it also the mark of a good aligned person if I set said would be Viconia-burning people on fire? After all, I did unto others as they would do unto Viconia. This is normally what I do when I rescue Viconia. Of course, it results in massive reputation loss, but I feel that it is the most fitting justice to send a fireball and or Dragon's Breath spell into the middle of that crowd of murderous peasants, to give them a taste of their own flame so to speak.
I also kicked Korgan out of my party in the Underdark so that he couldn't change out of Drow form, just after he'd finished a rant about how much he didn't like "blackskins." I thought it a fitting justice for him since he'd just finished telling me how much he hated black people and I made it so he would be black for the rest of his life. In a similar vein, I put the girdle of feminity on Anomen and left him in the Copper Coronet with nothing after he made some particularly misogynist comment. I suppose that might also be a fitting punishment for Kivan, based on what some people have said on here.
@hzf If memory serves, Keldorn is distrustful, but not too aggressive about it. If you actually see the interaction with Kivan and Viconia together it's... A bit much.
Keldorn attacks Viconia and tries to kill her if you have both of them in your party for long enough. Before that he orders her to leave the party and if she doesn't within some set amount of time, he attacks. In my games I always give Viconia the best equipment of anyone in my party, so Keldorn's attack usually results in his own quick death, but if both were equal in their gear he would probably kill her since I think he starts with more HP and strength.
Half the time the paladin in my group was my group, and he had no druthers about roleplaying with Viccy as damsel-in-distress, and leaving those fanatics bleeding out on the cobblestones. Those were usually the inquisitor+Viccy duo playthroughs.
Well I was joking more about Keldorn. I'd like to think the Bhaalspawn might be a little more understanding about judging someone based on their blood alone.
The one inconsistency I find in Viconia actions is the fact she doesn't react to a male abusing her verbally. The Drow is a matriarchal society where men are viewed as inferior and subordinates. The gender aspect is is at the core of this society. And yet she endures Kivan's abuse. I find this a tad bit disappointing about her.
Well, there's also the fact that she can be suprisingly understanding and nice for an evil char, whereas good chars around her show a great amount of violence.
It sheds some light on the limits of the lawful/chaotic and good/evil system.
So then it's decided. Only good characters can be racist because it against their alingments, but it's acceptable for evil characters to exibit racism, but it's not racsim when they do it because their evil and good characters discriminate against them?
No, no...that's not what anyone's saying. I regret encouraging your responses. Racism, whether exhibited from an exemplary or an evil person, is still racism. However, we view racism as a bad thing, and are therefore surprised when a good person appears to be racist. It's contradictory in a sense, and that's what makes it interesting when we see Kivan or Keldorn acting in these ways. It's less surprising when an evil person is racist, as it's what you'd half-expect: a bad person holding a bad opinion about a particular race.
She has reasons to be evil and I don't mean her drow heritage. She grew up full of hate, was betrayed her whole life and were ever she sets foot, people try to kill her for no good reason. She just lost faith in the world (or hardly ever had any). She's not evil because she likes to cause mischief, but because it's the only way to survive in this world. She want's to trust others so hard, but allways gets spit in the face. Only Charname can make her believe in the world (which even may result in an alignment change).
No, no...that's not what anyone's saying. I regret encouraging your responses. Racism, whether exhibited from an exemplary or an evil person, is still racism. However, we view racism as a bad thing, and are therefore surprised when a good person appears to be racist. It's contradictory in a sense, and that's what makes it interesting when we see Kivan or Keldorn acting in these ways. It's less surprising when an evil person is racist, as it's what you'd half-expect: a bad person holding a bad opinion about a particular race.
I am sorry but this in non-sense. In the Forgotten Realms, "racism" is the most normal thing, whatever the alignment. It is neither good nor bad. Even yourself upon character creation, you do accept the principle of racial discrimination based on the chosen race for your PC.
Comments
The comparison with Nazi's is an interesting one for the reasons the poster mentioned on page 2 of this thread...i.e., that most of the evil was being driven by a small % of the total German population. In Forgotten Realms lore, it isn't a small % of the drow population that embraces cruelty, evil, etc. It is a very small % of the population that doesn't. That is why there isn't a good real life analog to the drow - because there is no ethnic, national, or other group of people in real life that actually embrace this type of cruelty from the top to the bottom levels of society.
It is hard not to approach from our real life view about the dangers of stereotyping (including the one referenced earlier in the thread about the free reign in modern hollywood to bash southerners like they used to bash minority groups), but I think there is a real difference between the real life and Forgotten Realms backgrounds on this.
In the real world it's not that hard not to be racist. Because of the (modern) knowledge that there are no races that are inherently evil (I assume we agree on this
In all races "good" (at least not evil) people form a large majority. The others are the exception.
But the drow are inherently evil, with the likes of Drizzt and Viconia being exceptions, expelled from their own people because of this. Distrusting a drow because he is a drow seems a very sensible thing to do.
As for the racism talk in this thread... I confess it bores me. Fantasy (Science Fiction in general) is full of prejudice of one race towards another, regardless of Alignment considerations (being good or evil has nothing to do with it). Racial prejudice fuels the story and has been the background of some of the greatest works in literature, since Tolkien. I find nothing offensive about it. And it surprises me it is a matter of debate, as if somehow we felt the need to justify racial prejudice between fantasy races in a work of literature.
Not an appropriate comment? Is the disucssion only about fantasy racism? Glad I've been reading this thread. I've learned a lot about reality.
Captian, I like the cut of your jib. That is madness I see.
My story is simple, boring, and not worth your time. Trust me.
Rasism is a powerfull word. It is also a crime in this country. I metion it is a crime to illustrate how critical the discussion is. When the word is belittled and neutered an injustice is done. It is also cowardly to hide behind art when art is the great act of love and intelligence humanity can endeavour. Art can be the great illuminator. These are the issues I have w/
@rdarken
Childish banter over the subjects which define civilizations and the course they will take should be addressed. There is another thread in this forum about the omission of the Nietzche quote in the game opening. I think that quote is powerful and helps define this what BG is about. I view BG as a seminal piece of art.
As far as sticking around, yes I obviously made it a point to. If rdarken wants to discuss racism, lets. Let us look into the abyss of human madness and suffering. Is there any word which sums that up more than racism? Is there nothing more enraging than the sensless suffing man visits upon man?
It's really messed up and hypocritical, but humans fear and hate what they do not understand.
Thank you for that comment. I could not have posted a better example of ingorance. Now were are starting to talk racism.
And, coincedentaly, the tread has grown quiet. Come on back guys. Kivan is a bad man and I'll bet he attends Baptist conventions.
Viconia is evil, but she is portrayed positively because she is evil as a product of her position in society. Due to being rejected by the surface world, Viconia is forced to act in her own interests, and behaves as mercilessly towards others as they do towards her. These moral acts are not always choices she has made, but rather ones that racism in society forces her to make.
It's kind of like Elphaba in Wicked (the Musical), if that helps at all.
Viconia's constant need for self-reliance has hardened her and made her emotionally distant, often prompting her to encourage the protagonist to make evil choices out of a lack of empathy. Interestingly, however, if one has her around at the time when Yoshimo's questline is ultimately revealed, Viconia is one of the very few companions who will forgive him or try to understand him, as she too was forced to live a life not of her own choice.
In response to people saying that burning Viconia at the stake is somehow lawful good, is it also the mark of a good aligned person if I set said would be Viconia-burning people on fire? After all, I did unto others as they would do unto Viconia. This is normally what I do when I rescue Viconia. Of course, it results in massive reputation loss, but I feel that it is the most fitting justice to send a fireball and or Dragon's Breath spell into the middle of that crowd of murderous peasants, to give them a taste of their own flame so to speak.
I also kicked Korgan out of my party in the Underdark so that he couldn't change out of Drow form, just after he'd finished a rant about how much he didn't like "blackskins." I thought it a fitting justice for him since he'd just finished telling me how much he hated black people and I made it so he would be black for the rest of his life. In a similar vein, I put the girdle of feminity on Anomen and left him in the Copper Coronet with nothing after he made some particularly misogynist comment. I suppose that might also be a fitting punishment for Kivan, based on what some people have said on here.
The ringleaders of said burning group probably have the same allignment as Viconia does. :P
I think in aDND rules she was infact chaotic evil.
The third is neutral good.
(This is in a patched, unmodded installation of BG2:SoA+ToB.)
It sheds some light on the limits of the lawful/chaotic and good/evil system.
Racism, whether exhibited from an exemplary or an evil person, is still racism.
However, we view racism as a bad thing, and are therefore surprised when a good person appears to be racist. It's contradictory in a sense, and that's what makes it interesting when we see Kivan or Keldorn acting in these ways.
It's less surprising when an evil person is racist, as it's what you'd half-expect: a bad person holding a bad opinion about a particular race.
She's not evil because she likes to cause mischief, but because it's the only way to survive in this world. She want's to trust others so hard, but allways gets spit in the face.
Only Charname can make her believe in the world (which even may result in an alignment change).