Well, there's also the fact that she can be suprisingly understanding and nice for an evil char, whereas good chars around her show a great amount of violence.
It sheds some light on the limits of the lawful/chaotic and good/evil system.
Not really. I will not get anywhere near a discussion about the concept opf good vs evil in our real world, but in the Forgotten Realms, being good has nothing to do with being non-violent. At all.
In the FR's, showing tolerance and understanding to a drow, any drow, is a sign of foolishness - if not more. It makes little sense, unless you have very very good reasons to do so - or feel powerful enough to avoid the inevitable backstab or treason...
Surely though, it is bad, at least a little. People wouldn't accept others hating Drizzt on account of his being Drow. Perhaps racial preconceptions (which in the case of Drow are more than justified) would be a better word for it than racism.
It all comes down to the fact that people hate drow in general. Truth is, 80% of Drow are evil, and 10% of the remaining 20% just don't know how to act any different then the remaining 80%.
Only few drow are different and most of them serve Elistrallee, with exception of Drizzt, who is the only drow in entire Faerun that people actually "respect".
Vico belongs to the 10% that doesn't know how to act differently.
As for interractions with her... yes, it is quite simple to see that Vico is followed by the incredible hatred for her people, but if you red any Drow books or know DnD storylines you can understand that. Drow have on multiple ocasions tricked their "allies" and butchered or eslaved them.
Now, pre-5th edition of DnD all Drow except Drizzt are evil as all good/neutral Drow turned into new sub-race of elves, brown elves, so all drow are evil now... which still pisses off 90% of DnD players that refuse to play 4th edition, or 4th edition storylines as most of them failed.
I really do not understand how everyone seems to forget thet Viconia IS evil. She is evil, and she worships an evil godess. As @Necroblivion already said, it's even one of the most evil deities in Faerun. She is also a member of a race known for being trecherous, evil, and enjoying the pain of others. These are not baseless stereotypes, they are accurate for about 90% of her people. Adding all this up, I just don't see any reason why any good aligned person in the realms could be considered wrong in mistrusting her. The fact that she does not act evil is just one of the faults of the game, and is shared with most of the "designated evil" NPC-s. But still, she is obviously displeased by selfless acts and delights in cruel acts. (Reputation changes). This all points to the same thing - the good NPCs who mistrust her when she joins the party eventually decide, that they were right - this is an evil member of a reputadly evil race - and attack her.
The comparison with Nazi's is an interesting one for the reasons the poster mentioned on page 2 of this thread...i.e., that most of the evil was being driven by a small % of the total German population. In Forgotten Realms lore, it isn't a small % of the drow population that embraces cruelty, evil, etc. It is a very small % of the population that doesn't. That is why there isn't a good real life analog to the drow - because there is no ethnic, national, or other group of people in real life that actually embrace this type of cruelty from the top to the bottom levels of society.
I think this is an excellent point.
In the real world it's not that hard not to be racist. Because of the (modern) knowledge that there are no races that are inherently evil (I assume we agree on this ). In all races "good" (at least not evil) people form a large majority. The others are the exception.
But the drow are inherently evil, with the likes of Drizzt and Viconia being exceptions, expelled from their own people because of this. Distrusting a drow because he is a drow seems a very sensible thing to do.
In fact, the Nazis were not able to complete their plan before it was thwarted by the allies.
Imagine today what whould be this Third Reich if it was not stopped ?
Two generations would be living with the absolute conviction of what they are doing is good.
Nazi youth would have continued, and then the would become inherently evil, as you said, because all those who remembered the old time (before the Nazis) would have died of old age.
The new generations, only raised in the Nazis creed would be then "inherently evil".
Good things that they were stopped before corrupting too much mind with evil ideology.
I'm curious... The folks saying that this is totally normal behavior for a good-aligned character: Are intentions and thoughts irrelevant to alignment? If a character wanted to murder every child who walked past him, but he never did, is he still considered good? What if he worshipped an evil god, but didn't do anything evil?
Helias, let me ask you this. You say that there are no races that are inherently evil. To which I concurr. Yet the Tutsi and Hutu, who were once geneticly different but are not considered to be now, fought a race war a few years back. An odd million perished. If you were to ask thier opions on the subject of race and evil, do you feel you would get a different answer?
It's not unlikely that you would. And it would be a very understandable feeling, shared my many a good person on the Tutsi side. Particularly because the "popular participation" in the Ruandan genocide was much more widespread than in most other genocides. But that doesn't make this feeling the truth. You can't judge a people for all eternity by the worst act that was done by a part of its population.
Its different with the drow. Their acts of evil aren't incidental or exceptional, they are at the core of being drow. At least as I understand it, because I'm not really an expert in Faerun lore and canon.
Guys. You can't use our world for the FR morality. In our world there's no such thing as good and evil it all depends on the sociaty we live in. In D&D good and evil are cosmic forces. By casting detect evil spell you can see if someone is evil. Its not detect evil thought / motives. Its detect evil. And Vici is evil.
The races that live on Faerun are aware of this. Clerics of Bane and Cyric know that they serve evil because one of their god's domains is Evil. They have an evil aura, and their gods traffic with devils and demons which are the pure essense of evil on the alignement compass. It is not subject for interpretation, there are no cults of Bane that preach goodness and love.
Vici haven't left her home for the same reasons as Drizzt. Drizzt couldn't take his people dark ways and left. Vici replaced her people dark ways and Lolth's dark ways with Shar's dark ways. If she was a good person she would've turned to a good deity like Elistraee, but she didn't.
Now @rdarken hate doesn't count as an evil emotion. Though a person who wish to kill children but is not doing it might be evil. It doesn't matter if he have the guts to do it or not. A character that is worshiping an evil god doesn't have to be evil unless he is a cleric. A lot of thieves worship Mask but they are not evil. But a truely good character won't find the values of an evil god appealing for her.
And Kivan hates Vici for the same reason if we had an orc or goblin NPC in the party along side a dwarf. Those races are enemies. Dwarves got murdered by orcs and goblins for generations. Its is only natural for a long living race like dwarves to not forget such things. Its not evil to hate. Its evil to murder because of hate. If Kivan would murder a drow child or burn down a drow village unprovoked it will be an evil act. As long he is just hating there's nothing wrong with it on the alignement side.
The fact that our morality doesn't apply is exactly what makes it such a fun concept to think about and discuss! It's cool to see how different people react to it. I was pretty taken aback by it and some folks here are not. "She's a drow, he's an elf, that's how it is." It's interesting.
I'm a little confused, though. You say one of the reasons Viconia is evil is because she turned away from Lolth to Shar, but later you say a character worshiping an evil god doesn't have to be evil. A bit contradictory, no?
Not at all. They don't HAVE to be evil. But they usually are. Because evil gods most of the time reflect aspects in the worshper's soul. This is why he went for this god in the first place. I am not sure how much you know about Shar but she is most likely the worst evil god ever. She truely reinvented evil.
That's what folks were saying before. It feels a bit disconnected to me. I can't really understand Viconia's motivations for it, since most of her actions aren't really all that evil.
But the main issue has reamained usresolved. Is Kivan racist or just the author of his dialog? Who is going to be sent to sensitivty training, Kivan or the author?
What actions? what make you think she is not evil?
Well, what does she do that IS evil? It's hard to really quantify since we control her actions, but she never really advocates anything too bad that I can remember. She's a little selfish, but she never wants to hurt anyone innocent.
This is a really fascinating discussion. I think it's a deep compliment to the Baldur's Gate games that the character writing can provoke such interesting character analysis.
I'm still kind of thinking about the whole thing. We may be trying to read too much into what little was written. If we want to take the character comments seriously, and do some serious literary analysis, I guess my first reaction would be to point out that we don't really have a lot to go on here.
We have a handful of one- or two- line interactions in BG1, and perhaps a fraction of a book chapter's worth of dialogue in SoA and ToB. It should also be considered that, when we think that, say Keldorn's automatic hatred of Viconia completely contradicts his reverence for Drizzt, that it could be just that: a contradiction in the character caused by hasty, poorly edited writing. (And I hate to say that about BG, but, you know, it's a computer game, not a Dickens novel.)
And we have all the background source material that has been written about the Forgotten Realms that we can refer to, and which will influence our interpretations of these sparse character dialogues, that manage to be so riveting despite their sparseness.
Based on what little I have to go on, my opinion would be that Keldorn's blind hatred of Viconia does indeed lessen his goodness, and that Kivan's hatred does the same. But just having an alignment label of "good" does not make one a saint or a paragon. Both men are deeply flawed, wounded individuals with many unresolved emotional issues. They are sentient, "human" beings. They can still be considered "good" men, despite their darker selves. We all have a Jungian Shadow, and we all give in to it from time to time.
He is not racist. He is hateful. Drow are elves, and Kivan is an elf. If he was hating on dwarves in general and wish to kill them on sight I would say that he is racist. The author can't be racist because Drow doesn't exist.
Its so funny that every now and then someone jumps on the racism horse and start a cruesade for the sake of gnomes, drows, and Ultarvians (a race I just made up and you are a racist for not knowing about them).
".... It's hard to rally quantify since we control her actions"
Yes rdarken we do. But as an earlier post stated, what is she THINKING while your controlling her actions. Thats what needs to be addressed.
And your letting Kivan off the hook, isn't this thread supposed to be about HIM, not the victim? Or was she asking for it, walking around dressed like a Drow?
Good doesn't = Nice. And evil doesn't = ass hole. A good person doesn't have to be nice and all loving. But his action will be good. He also doesn't have to be stupid and give Vici a chence just because she is ACTING nice. She will have to prove herself hard before anyone good or evil will be able to trust her. And serving Shar doesn't really help her here. A goddess that worshiping her is against the law in many places. She doesn't really have a good case you know. So I can excuse people for not liking her or even attack her on sight. The same way you attack goblins, orcs, hobgoblins etc' on sight. Is this also racism?
Well, there's also the fact that she can be suprisingly understanding and nice for an evil char, whereas good chars around her show a great amount of violence.
It sheds some light on the limits of the lawful/chaotic and good/evil system.
Not really. I will not get anywhere near a discussion about the concept opf good vs evil in our real world, but in the Forgotten Realms, being good has nothing to do with being non-violent. At all.
In the FR's, showing tolerance and understanding to a drow, any drow, is a sign of foolishness - if not more. It makes little sense, unless you have very very good reasons to do so - or feel powerful enough to avoid the inevitable backstab or treason...
This is exactly the problem. The D&D system is not based on sociological or psychological considerations, but on an arbitrary and divine division between "good" and "bad" characters. It's basically a neverending conflict between incoherent groups.
There was a thread here not that long ago where we explored the possibilties of that system, only to conclude that we couldn't really justify it philosophically because the Realms presuppose the existance of Gods who embody the now absolute concepts of good and evil.
No non-elf can really understand the depth of the division and what emotions and thoughts the Elf/Drow schism bring up in the minds of the Elven.
It would be like if there was another Human Race (that had split off from us), that was totally devoted to wiping us out, and is not only willing to go to any length to do it, but has, repeatedly, for literally thousands of years.
Then you meet one. Up close and personal.
Then take into account that in the D&D Universe, Evil and Good are real things, and Gods exist and interfere in the lives of mortals. Magic really exists, and yes, monsters really do hide under your bed, and are in that closet...
If you do not immediately kill that other, it will kill you, as it has done repeatedly, time and time again. You know of those that it has happened to (as an elf with an incredibly long life span), and probably have lost friends, perhaps siblings to such. Your entire Race has suffered, entire cities destroyed by these others, and they-will-not-stop!!! They cannot be bargained with, reasoned with, or appeased.
Really, the one or perhaps two that do not have your immediate and utter destruction in mind that you [i][b]might[/b][/i] meet, perhaps once in a lifetime measured in hundreds if not thousands of years...
I personally find Kivan's treatment of Viconia much too mild. At the least, he should immediately leave the party if she joins. I personally feel he should attempt to kill her on sight - after all, that is what the Drow do to Elves. If they are feeling merciful...otherwise they capture them, torture them, and sacrifice them, enjoying, reveling in such.
That Kivan does not do this, is an extreme example of Lawful and Good behavior. He must be fighting with his emotions and prejudiced feelings the entire time, ever suspicious and just waiting (and dreading) the revealing of her "true face". I mean, she worships Shar outright! (and makes no excuse or secret of it). She is admittedly evil!! She is not remorseful, repentant, or even sorry! "Lu-lu-lu, for Shar!" "Nightsinger, give me strength!" She talks to the Main Character in her mother tongue, even though she knows and understands Common perfectly - why? If she has rejected Drow ways, why does she maintain them? This is not how someone (ala Drizz'zt) who has rejected a societies ways acts.
Put yourself in Kivan's shoes for a moment here, and attempt to understand what the Drow mean to the Elven. Then try to imagine what is going through his head to have a real Drow 24/7 near him. One that is admittedly not "of the good Drow". Talk about not sleeping...is that a spider!!?? What was that? What did she mean when she said that?! That look...what is she planning? Every quick movement could be the next attack, every spell death, or worse...and yeah, she is a Cleric of Shar! She has spells! Where are the rest, hiding no doubt, waiting to attack when the moment presents itself?
Always vigilant, on your guard, tired, lack of sleep - imagine how cranky you would be!
I apologize for three posts in a row, bad form I know, but I was just doing research on a non-related subject when I came across this:
"The word justification (justificatio, from justum facere) derives its name from justice (justitia), by which is not merely meant the cardinal virtue in the sense of a constant purpose to respect the rights of others (suum cuique), nor is the term taken in the concept of all those virtues which go to make up the moral law, but connotes, especially, the whole inner relation of man to God as to his supernatural end."
@kilroy_was_here okay, I do not remember that. But it sure is intertesting. Who knows, maybe she is all trying to look all-strong and evil. Because she has learned from her childhood that it is the proper way to go. She tells stories about how evil and cruel she is all the time and tries to embrace it. But she's really soft inside. She is different from, say, Drizzt as Drizzt is repulsed by evil/cruel behaviour and can not embrace it even if he tries. Viconia tries hard but fails anyway. Interesting thought.
Yeah, Viccy is all soft inside, but if you tell her that you'll get a flail on your face! XD
Vicky killed the farmers. What was not true is the "sex with everyone" part of the history.
@WebShaman I couldn't say it better! Drow are maybe the most evil race on Faerun after Illithids. Its a miracle Vicci survives as a Shar worshiper and a drow for so long.
I consider the Drow to be THE most evil Race on Faerun, bare none. The Illithids are horrors, to be sure (as are the Aboleth), but they are more like...natural horrors, to be quaint. They are what they are, true to their twisted, evil selves. Illithid regard others as food and broodmares (Aboleths hate all others, being most likely from the Universe before, much like Shar). But the Drow chose to be as they are. That, IMHO, makes them the most evil of all. The Illithid and Aboleth simply are. The Drow made a conscious choice to be as they are (and remain so).
They enjoy their evilness like no other. They have turned being evil into an artform, as near to perfection as elvenly possible.
Hey folks, reasonable discussion and debate is all well and good. And discussing something that's taboo in real life is acceptable, so long as the responses are all within what most would consider reasonable discussion and debate and do not promote hatred further.
So, to everyone: keep it civil. If you can't keep it civil, I'd urge you to avoid posting. If you feel the thread is offensive and wish it closed/removed, then sure - contact me, and if enough people contact me then I'll do it, even should I disagree with the consensus.
In the meantime, my thoughts are: as uncomfortable as this might be for some, it is a reasonable debate and discussion so I see no reason to close/delete this thread.
Comments
In the FR's, showing tolerance and understanding to a drow, any drow, is a sign of foolishness - if not more. It makes little sense, unless you have very very good reasons to do so - or feel powerful enough to avoid the inevitable backstab or treason...
Only few drow are different and most of them serve Elistrallee, with exception of Drizzt, who is the only drow in entire Faerun that people actually "respect".
Vico belongs to the 10% that doesn't know how to act differently.
As for interractions with her... yes, it is quite simple to see that Vico is followed by the incredible hatred for her people, but if you red any Drow books or know DnD storylines you can understand that. Drow have on multiple ocasions tricked their "allies" and butchered or eslaved them.
Now, pre-5th edition of DnD all Drow except Drizzt are evil as all good/neutral Drow turned into new sub-race of elves, brown elves, so all drow are evil now... which still pisses off 90% of DnD players that refuse to play 4th edition, or 4th edition storylines as most of them failed.
Maligned though 4E is, it introduced one excellent thing vis-à-vis alignment. Unaligned.
My alignment is lawful chaotic neutral good evil.
She is evil, and she worships an evil godess. As @Necroblivion already said, it's even one of the most evil deities in Faerun. She is also a member of a race known for being trecherous, evil, and enjoying the pain of others. These are not baseless stereotypes, they are accurate for about 90% of her people.
Adding all this up, I just don't see any reason why any good aligned person in the realms could be considered wrong in mistrusting her.
The fact that she does not act evil is just one of the faults of the game, and is shared with most of the "designated evil" NPC-s. But still, she is obviously displeased by selfless acts and delights in cruel acts. (Reputation changes).
This all points to the same thing - the good NPCs who mistrust her when she joins the party eventually decide, that they were right - this is an evil member of a reputadly evil race - and attack her.
In fact, the Nazis were not able to complete their plan before it was thwarted by the allies.
Imagine today what whould be this Third Reich if it was not stopped ?
Two generations would be living with the absolute conviction of what they are doing is good.
Nazi youth would have continued, and then the would become inherently evil, as you said, because all those who remembered the old time (before the Nazis) would have died of old age.
The new generations, only raised in the Nazis creed would be then "inherently evil".
Good things that they were stopped before corrupting too much mind with evil ideology.
That may be a bit too deep
Its different with the drow. Their acts of evil aren't incidental or exceptional, they are at the core of being drow. At least as I understand it, because I'm not really an expert in Faerun lore and canon.
The races that live on Faerun are aware of this. Clerics of Bane and Cyric know that they serve evil because one of their god's domains is Evil. They have an evil aura, and their gods traffic with devils and demons which are the pure essense of evil on the alignement compass. It is not subject for interpretation, there are no cults of Bane that preach goodness and love.
Vici haven't left her home for the same reasons as Drizzt. Drizzt couldn't take his people dark ways and left. Vici replaced her people dark ways and Lolth's dark ways with Shar's dark ways. If she was a good person she would've turned to a good deity like Elistraee, but she didn't.
Now @rdarken hate doesn't count as an evil emotion. Though a person who wish to kill children but is not doing it might be evil. It doesn't matter if he have the guts to do it or not. A character that is worshiping an evil god doesn't have to be evil unless he is a cleric. A lot of thieves worship Mask but they are not evil. But a truely good character won't find the values of an evil god appealing for her.
I'm a little confused, though. You say one of the reasons Viconia is evil is because she turned away from Lolth to Shar, but later you say a character worshiping an evil god doesn't have to be evil. A bit contradictory, no?
But the main issue has reamained usresolved. Is Kivan racist or just the author of his dialog? Who is going to be sent to sensitivty training, Kivan or the author?
(snip)
I'm still kind of thinking about the whole thing. We may be trying to read too much into what little was written. If we want to take the character comments seriously, and do some serious literary analysis, I guess my first reaction would be to point out that we don't really have a lot to go on here.
We have a handful of one- or two- line interactions in BG1, and perhaps a fraction of a book chapter's worth of dialogue in SoA and ToB. It should also be considered that, when we think that, say Keldorn's automatic hatred of Viconia completely contradicts his reverence for Drizzt, that it could be just that: a contradiction in the character caused by hasty, poorly edited writing. (And I hate to say that about BG, but, you know, it's a computer game, not a Dickens novel.)
And we have all the background source material that has been written about the Forgotten Realms that we can refer to, and which will influence our interpretations of these sparse character dialogues, that manage to be so riveting despite their sparseness.
Based on what little I have to go on, my opinion would be that Keldorn's blind hatred of Viconia does indeed lessen his goodness, and that Kivan's hatred does the same. But just having an alignment label of "good" does not make one a saint or a paragon. Both men are deeply flawed, wounded individuals with many unresolved emotional issues. They are sentient, "human" beings. They can still be considered "good" men, despite their darker selves. We all have a Jungian Shadow, and we all give in to it from time to time.
Yes rdarken we do. But as an earlier post stated, what is she THINKING while your controlling her actions. Thats what needs to be addressed.
And your letting Kivan off the hook, isn't this thread supposed to be about HIM, not the victim? Or was she asking for it, walking around dressed like a Drow?
There was a thread here not that long ago where we explored the possibilties of that system, only to conclude that we couldn't really justify it philosophically because the Realms presuppose the existance of Gods who embody the now absolute concepts of good and evil.
It would be like if there was another Human Race (that had split off from us), that was totally devoted to wiping us out, and is not only willing to go to any length to do it, but has, repeatedly, for literally thousands of years.
Then you meet one. Up close and personal.
Then take into account that in the D&D Universe, Evil and Good are real things, and Gods exist and interfere in the lives of mortals. Magic really exists, and yes, monsters really do hide under your bed, and are in that closet...
If you do not immediately kill that other, it will kill you, as it has done repeatedly, time and time again. You know of those that it has happened to (as an elf with an incredibly long life span), and probably have lost friends, perhaps siblings to such. Your entire Race has suffered, entire cities destroyed by these others, and they-will-not-stop!!! They cannot be bargained with, reasoned with, or appeased.
Really, the one or perhaps two that do not have your immediate and utter destruction in mind that you [i][b]might[/b][/i] meet, perhaps once in a lifetime measured in hundreds if not thousands of years...
I personally find Kivan's treatment of Viconia much too mild. At the least, he should immediately leave the party if she joins. I personally feel he should attempt to kill her on sight - after all, that is what the Drow do to Elves. If they are feeling merciful...otherwise they capture them, torture them, and sacrifice them, enjoying, reveling in such.
That Kivan does not do this, is an extreme example of Lawful and Good behavior. He must be fighting with his emotions and prejudiced feelings the entire time, ever suspicious and just waiting (and dreading) the revealing of her "true face". I mean, she worships Shar outright! (and makes no excuse or secret of it). She is admittedly evil!! She is not remorseful, repentant, or even sorry! "Lu-lu-lu, for Shar!" "Nightsinger, give me strength!" She talks to the Main Character in her mother tongue, even though she knows and understands Common perfectly - why? If she has rejected Drow ways, why does she maintain them? This is not how someone (ala Drizz'zt) who has rejected a societies ways acts.
Put yourself in Kivan's shoes for a moment here, and attempt to understand what the Drow mean to the Elven. Then try to imagine what is going through his head to have a real Drow 24/7 near him. One that is admittedly not "of the good Drow". Talk about not sleeping...is that a spider!!?? What was that? What did she mean when she said that?! That look...what is she planning? Every quick movement could be the next attack, every spell death, or worse...and yeah, she is a Cleric of Shar! She has spells! Where are the rest, hiding no doubt, waiting to attack when the moment presents itself?
Always vigilant, on your guard, tired, lack of sleep - imagine how cranky you would be!
"The word justification (justificatio, from justum facere) derives its name from justice (justitia), by which is not merely meant the cardinal virtue in the sense of a constant purpose to respect the rights of others (suum cuique), nor is the term taken in the concept of all those virtues which go to make up the moral law, but connotes, especially, the whole inner relation of man to God as to his supernatural end."
Seemed germain.
@Kukaracha
"It's basicall a neverending conflict between incoherent groups."
......................
(well some of us are more self-aware of our incoherence than others. I just hope my incoherence isn't racist.)
They enjoy their evilness like no other. They have turned being evil into an artform, as near to perfection as elvenly possible.
So, to everyone: keep it civil. If you can't keep it civil, I'd urge you to avoid posting. If you feel the thread is offensive and wish it closed/removed, then sure - contact me, and if enough people contact me then I'll do it, even should I disagree with the consensus.
In the meantime, my thoughts are: as uncomfortable as this might be for some, it is a reasonable debate and discussion so I see no reason to close/delete this thread.