Well @Nathan, the only problem I really see here is one person (and one person only) insisting in bringing this discussion outside the realm of fantasy literature and into real life. Consistently with almost every single post. Asking to silence @and_then_or is perhaps outside the realm of possibility. But unfortunately this person has ruined what would otherwise be a good discussion.
This example illustrates why I refuse to enter the debate: @and_then_or said, "But the main issue has reamained usresolved. Is Kivan racist or just the author of his dialog? Who is going to be sent to sensitivty training, Kivan or the author?"
Does grass consider the cow to be evil? Ants the ardvark?
The concept of Good and Evil (and Neutrality, for that matter) are Man-made artifices that do not actually exist in Nature.
So no, grass, cow, ants, ardvark etc are not good, evil, etc. They simply are parts of Nature.
In the FR, however, such truly does exist, and is part of the Natural Order of things (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, Neutral).
Still, grass, cow, ants, ardvark all have no conception of what they do - they are not aware and thus are not Evil or Good - they are True Neutral in the FR Universe.
@marfig understandable, but I believe that - while many points are misguided and in some cases far out to left field with regards to the discussion everyone else is having, in this case, @and_then_or has raised a few decent points to get people thinking. Our views on moderation of this forum so far have been that people should be able to express themselves reasonably, so long as it's not abusive / provoking of abuse, and that people should make an effort to keep it classy.
To me, my opinion on that particular point is pretty clear-cut - the answer is no, as the author is working within the constraints of not only an established fantasy universe but also the constraints of the character they've created. Exploring the issue from an artistic/storytelling standpoint does not mean that the author's personal beliefs or biases are represented, unless the author echoes those beliefs and biases outside of their artistic construct.
You don't need to respond to the guy, but, to some that don't understand how the writing/artistic process works, it could be a reasonable question so I allowed it to stick around.
This is the point. I've been 'reported' and people want my particpation to stop. Call it what you want.
Racism is an important issue and many on this fourm are using the issue to enjoy the smell of their own brand, excuse the expression. Flippantly parsing the pain of others for self-satisfaction is galling.
If your going to put the word racism in the title of a fourm post be prepared to reap the whirl-wind of the zietgiest in all its forms.
Are you not entertained?
No? My bringing up issues of immaturity, hypocricy, and intellectual dishonisty make you uncomforatble? Theses are not part of the issue of racism in your view?
Good. I hope I've made you uncomfortable. This is the first step towards growth. I'm willing to be the evil twin locked in the attic.
@and_then_or, racism is an important issue alright, and this IS NOT the place to discuss it.
If someone puts the word racism on the title of a thread pertaining to how two fictional characters relate to each other, that doesn't give you the right to bring the discussion to the real word racism, going as further as to attempt getting off topic on nearly every post. If you are so enthralled/disgusted about racism there's plenty of other places on the web where that is an ON TOPIC discussion.
Your attitude on this thread and your name-calling has been one of the most absurd behaviors I have witnessed in a very long time. I feel like retching at so much intellectual dishonesty. One commendation however you do deserve; that of having been able to troll this thread with such impunity.
Guys, by bringing up concepts such as racism to medieval fantasy, you simply forget that the concept of "equality" did not exist during the real world middle age. Nobles were nobles, knights were knights, and serfs were serfs.
Kivan hates viconia because if a moon elf were found by drow in the underdark, the elf would suffer the worst tortures ever. Whenever a drow is spotted , darthir shoot to kill because they know that drow are no good.
Viconia is evil indeed, NEUTRAL evil - she doesn't wanna see the world burn just for fun, but she delights in obtaining power for herself. Would you trust someone who openly reveres greed and doesn't care about good deeds? 'Course not.
The Illithids are horrors, to be sure (as are the Aboleth), but they are more like...natural horrors, to be quaint. They are what they are, true to their twisted, evil selves. Illithid regard others as food and broodmares.
O_O ...What? ...Please tell me this doesn't mean what I think it means...
Viconia is evil indeed, NEUTRAL evil - she doesn't wanna see the world burn just for fun, but she delights in obtaining power for herself. Would you trust someone who openly reveres greed and doesn't care about good deeds? 'Course not.
I'm not seeing it that way. I feel the OP is right. There's a disconnect between Viconia as a Drow and Drows in the AD&D setting. The character wasn't really fleshed out by the original game writers. She's too candid for a Drow. Both as the way she reacts to banters as well as the fact she makes absolutely no effort to impose her Drow female condition.
I don't feel like saying she's not behaving as an AD&D evil character. The whole Alignment thing in AD&D is highly argumentative and we will just keep on arguing in circles. But she's definitely one big eyebrow raiser in the game. I feel that if I was ever to play a Viconia back in my Pen & Paper days, my GM wouldn't be pleased.
I don't think she really openly reveres greed, though, does she? Doesn't care about good deeds, fine. Though I know some folks like that in real life, as well. And they aren't particularly bad people. Egocentric, yes, but not bad.
As some people said before, a lot of Viconia's evil-ness comes from the way she was treated. She enjoys revenge and retribution. I don't think she is much for random acts of violence, though.
I think that @rdarken just couldn't think of a better word for what he wanted to analyze regarding the characters of Kivan and Viconia, when he made the thread. It was, perhaps, an unfortunate choice of words. Perhaps "Viconia, D&D Alignment, and Character Prejudice in BG" would have been a better title, which would hopefully have avoided invoking a hot-botton political trope.
@Nathan, I agree that no one here deserves censorship or any radical moderator action.
@and_then_or: I have not spoken to you before now. My opinion is that your posts have been needlessly confrontational toward people who are only trying to have an interesting and thought-provoking discussion about some fictional characters in a game, and what their motivations might be, and also about the D&D alignment system, which is often a rousing topic of friendly debate among fans. It's almost as though your motivation for posting is to distract, insult, and derail.
Also, your posts contain numerous spelling, stylistic, and clarity issues in the writing. These errors make it harder to respond to you thoughtfully and diplomatically.
I actually like this topic - I mean , Vicky wouldn't sacrifice a baby ...would Edwin do it, then? These evil characters usually have a really dark side that doesn't come out because your own quest is kind of noble already .
The Illithids are horrors, to be sure (as are the Aboleth), but they are more like...natural horrors, to be quaint. They are what they are, true to their twisted, evil selves. Illithid regard others as food and broodmares.
O_O ...What? ...Please tell me this doesn't mean what I think it means...
Well, Illithid procreate by implanting their tadpoles...that really does sound bad, doesn't it? 0_o
As for how Viconia relates to the Surfacers (and why she does not brutally take apart any "male" who dares to slight or insult her - especially Kivan and other elves or half-elves) - apart from what those who created her could say about it, I think that she is doing what most would do in a similar situation (ala stranger in a strange land); maintaining a low profile.
After all, she is alone in a strange world, one that wishes her dead with all it's might. So she finally found a group that does not enslave her (and use her body), or bury her alive, kill her, etc...
I think in her case it is a question of survival that keeps her biting back the bile, so to speak. And she has absolutely no alternative - she cannot go back to the Underdark. She has no allies, no friends, no-one at all, except for this little group. So she "suffers" the situation, because she has no choice.
If she did have a choice, and it was a better one, I have no doubt that she would take it.
You jest, yes? OP puts the word ‘Racism’ in the post title and this thread is not be a discussion on racism? To you there is a reality where ‘fantasy racism’ exists. That puts a pit in my stomach.
Even within the very narrow confines of what the OP may or may not have been attempting to say Kivan is not a racist, period.
OAAH! OHH! Why didn’t you just say that and shut up! Why all the drama!
If you are going to use racism in the title of a post, then I will talk racism. Fantasy literature is art and it matters and it’s real.
I voice an opinion the OP doesn’t like and in a manner many people don’t like. OP calls me a coward for hiding behind the ‘anonymity of the internet’ won’t respond to my direct message, and then someone attempts to have me banned. One could say that this is the type of cowardice and hypocrisy that fuels racism, the blind eye.
Then after a moderator defends my right to speak and the validity of some of my points, the OP back tracks says well maybe a poor choice of words. Must curry favor.
Well, well, it seems the troll has actually made a point and achieved an objective. He did contribute to the thread in a more powerfull way that we thought a troll could.
I used every form of communication I could in this thread. Absurdity to example absurdity. Pointed out contradictions and provoked some into serious conversation. And I did it in an ugly manner. People have been doing this since Lenny Bruce, er Samuel Clemmens ,er… . Not that I compare to those people, I merely monkey their tricks the way a troll will do.
I come to the BGEE forums for the same reason you do. To relax, enjoy the game and the community and escape. Of all the tripe that people here get riled about, my button was racism.
I honestly think that the reason that Viconia doesn't react to Kivan's insults in regards to gender is because the writers forgot about that little facet of Drow society.
Notice how in BG2 they've fixed that part of Viconia's personality.
I don't think that there is some great conspiracy here.
Dear and_then_or... You can write and discuss the topic of racism and not actually be racist. Twain did it, and the whoever wrote Kivan did it too (though whether or not it's racist is a matter of debate). It's hard to respond to your posts because I hardly know what you're talking about half the time, but I digress. I think it's clear that, with the "set evil morality" of races like ogres and such, racism in our society cannot apply itself directly to racism in the game, but it provides an interesting discourse nonetheless. With all due respect, stop derailing it.
Don't use the topic of racism in a flippant manner for self-aggrandizement and know the meanings of the words you use. Because words have meanings that lead to actions and consequence. Thus the world has been and will be shaped.
That's three sentences so 'scu-zea.
(Man that guy is a delta-bravo. Why didn't he just say that to begin with? What is his DEAL? Isn't he the one using this thread for self-aggrandizement? YEA! Bann his ass. Oh wait, he didn't start the thread.)
...Right. Anyway, moving on... My opinion of the matter is this: Earth is clearly not the Forgotten Realms, and so our concept of good is different from what Kivan or Keldorn might think good is. Smiting a member of an evil race would technically go towards the greater good in their minds, while we might raise an eyebrow at their haste to draw steel or heated words. To conclude: hatred of a race does not necessarily make one bad in terms of the Forgotten Realms, though it might sour our own opinions of them based on real world morality.
Comments
This example illustrates why I refuse to enter the debate:
@and_then_or said, "But the main issue has reamained usresolved. Is Kivan racist or just the author of his dialog? Who is going to be sent to sensitivty training, Kivan or the author?"
So no, grass, cow, ants, ardvark etc are not good, evil, etc. They simply are parts of Nature.
In the FR, however, such truly does exist, and is part of the Natural Order of things (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, Neutral).
Still, grass, cow, ants, ardvark all have no conception of what they do - they are not aware and thus are not Evil or Good - they are True Neutral in the FR Universe.
To me, my opinion on that particular point is pretty clear-cut - the answer is no, as the author is working within the constraints of not only an established fantasy universe but also the constraints of the character they've created. Exploring the issue from an artistic/storytelling standpoint does not mean that the author's personal beliefs or biases are represented, unless the author echoes those beliefs and biases outside of their artistic construct.
You don't need to respond to the guy, but, to some that don't understand how the writing/artistic process works, it could be a reasonable question so I allowed it to stick around.
@marfig
This is the point. I've been 'reported' and people want my particpation to stop. Call it what you want.
Racism is an important issue and many on this fourm are using the issue to enjoy the smell of their own brand, excuse the expression. Flippantly parsing the pain of others for self-satisfaction is galling.
If your going to put the word racism in the title of a fourm post be prepared to reap the whirl-wind of the zietgiest in all its forms.
Are you not entertained?
No? My bringing up issues of immaturity, hypocricy, and intellectual dishonisty make you uncomforatble? Theses are not part of the issue of racism in your view?
Good. I hope I've made you uncomfortable. This is the first step towards growth. I'm willing to be the evil twin locked in the attic.
Absolute respect to the moderators on this forum.
If someone puts the word racism on the title of a thread pertaining to how two fictional characters relate to each other, that doesn't give you the right to bring the discussion to the real word racism, going as further as to attempt getting off topic on nearly every post. If you are so enthralled/disgusted about racism there's plenty of other places on the web where that is an ON TOPIC discussion.
Your attitude on this thread and your name-calling has been one of the most absurd behaviors I have witnessed in a very long time. I feel like retching at so much intellectual dishonesty. One commendation however you do deserve; that of having been able to troll this thread with such impunity.
Kivan hates viconia because if a moon elf were found by drow in the underdark, the elf would suffer the worst tortures ever. Whenever a drow is spotted , darthir shoot to kill because they know that drow are no good.
Viconia is evil indeed, NEUTRAL evil - she doesn't wanna see the world burn just for fun, but she delights in obtaining power for herself. Would you trust someone who openly reveres greed and doesn't care about good deeds? 'Course not.
...Please tell me this doesn't mean what I think it means...
I don't feel like saying she's not behaving as an AD&D evil character. The whole Alignment thing in AD&D is highly argumentative and we will just keep on arguing in circles. But she's definitely one big eyebrow raiser in the game. I feel that if I was ever to play a Viconia back in my Pen & Paper days, my GM wouldn't be pleased.
As some people said before, a lot of Viconia's evil-ness comes from the way she was treated. She enjoys revenge and retribution. I don't think she is much for random acts of violence, though.
@Nathan, I agree that no one here deserves censorship or any radical moderator action.
@and_then_or: I have not spoken to you before now. My opinion is that your posts have been needlessly confrontational toward people who are only trying to have an interesting and thought-provoking discussion about some fictional characters in a game, and what their motivations might be, and also about the D&D alignment system, which is often a rousing topic of friendly debate among fans. It's almost as though your motivation for posting is to distract, insult, and derail.
Also, your posts contain numerous spelling, stylistic, and clarity issues in the writing. These errors make it harder to respond to you thoughtfully and diplomatically.
Would be cool to have some kind of boss-monster in BGEE that is called like that. with some kind of whirlwind-attack!
I'm trying to be the boss monster of this fourm that talks like that, but the best kind of monster I can muster is troll.
And we know that trolls are not boss nor can they spell or type with clarity.
As for how Viconia relates to the Surfacers (and why she does not brutally take apart any "male" who dares to slight or insult her - especially Kivan and other elves or half-elves) - apart from what those who created her could say about it, I think that she is doing what most would do in a similar situation (ala stranger in a strange land); maintaining a low profile.
After all, she is alone in a strange world, one that wishes her dead with all it's might. So she finally found a group that does not enslave her (and use her body), or bury her alive, kill her, etc...
I think in her case it is a question of survival that keeps her biting back the bile, so to speak. And she has absolutely no alternative - she cannot go back to the Underdark. She has no allies, no friends, no-one at all, except for this little group. So she "suffers" the situation, because she has no choice.
If she did have a choice, and it was a better one, I have no doubt that she would take it.
(not to jump to any conclusions about your avatar)
(okay, I'm superimposing, paladins are my fanasty)
You jest, yes? OP puts the word ‘Racism’ in the post title and this thread is not be a discussion on racism? To you there is a reality where ‘fantasy racism’ exists. That puts a pit in my stomach.
Even within the very narrow confines of what the OP may or may not have been attempting to say Kivan is not a racist, period.
OAAH! OHH! Why didn’t you just say that and shut up! Why all the drama!
Racism murders, tortures, and enslaves every. F*****G. minute. of. every. day.
If you are going to use racism in the title of a post, then I will talk racism. Fantasy literature is art and it matters and it’s real.
I voice an opinion the OP doesn’t like and in a manner many people don’t like. OP calls me a coward for hiding behind the ‘anonymity of the internet’ won’t respond to my direct message, and then someone attempts to have me banned. One could say that this is the type of cowardice and hypocrisy that fuels racism, the blind eye.
Then after a moderator defends my right to speak and the validity of some of my points, the OP back tracks says well maybe a poor choice of words. Must curry favor.
Well, well, it seems the troll has actually made a point and achieved an objective. He did contribute to the thread in a more powerfull way that we thought a troll could.
I used every form of communication I could in this thread. Absurdity to example absurdity. Pointed out contradictions and provoked some into serious conversation. And I did it in an ugly manner. People have been doing this since Lenny Bruce, er Samuel Clemmens ,er… . Not that I compare to those people, I merely monkey their tricks the way a troll will do.
I come to the BGEE forums for the same reason you do. To relax, enjoy the game and the community and escape. Of all the tripe that people here get riled about, my button was racism.
Notice how in BG2 they've fixed that part of Viconia's personality.
I don't think that there is some great conspiracy here.
You can write and discuss the topic of racism and not actually be racist. Twain did it, and the whoever wrote Kivan did it too (though whether or not it's racist is a matter of debate). It's hard to respond to your posts because I hardly know what you're talking about half the time, but I digress.
I think it's clear that, with the "set evil morality" of races like ogres and such, racism in our society cannot apply itself directly to racism in the game, but it provides an interesting discourse nonetheless.
With all due respect, stop derailing it.
Some might say I'm getting the conversation on track.
No your missing my point NO your missing my point no your missing MY point no no your missing my POINT.
That's three sentences so 'scu-zea.
(Man that guy is a delta-bravo. Why didn't he just say that to begin with? What is his DEAL? Isn't he the one using this thread for self-aggrandizement? YEA! Bann his ass. Oh wait, he didn't start the thread.)
Sorry Triaglehead.
Anyway, moving on...
My opinion of the matter is this: Earth is clearly not the Forgotten Realms, and so our concept of good is different from what Kivan or Keldorn might think good is. Smiting a member of an evil race would technically go towards the greater good in their minds, while we might raise an eyebrow at their haste to draw steel or heated words.
To conclude: hatred of a race does not necessarily make one bad in terms of the Forgotten Realms, though it might sour our own opinions of them based on real world morality.
How can anything concieved by man have a different conception of anything that is not concevieable?