As we can nicely see in this thread, people don't care about said science. It's all emotion, old arguments and links to biased websites, and people would rather have their tax money spent on bigger jails and well-armed police than on criminologic, psychiatric or sociological research at their local university. That doesn't solve anything. I find it alarming how many people (not on this forum, mind you) comment on the events with stuff like "Let's pray that things get better" - yeah, why not actually go out and *do* something about it rather than pray? The possibilities are there. It's just a matter of opening your eyes and seeing them.
Mourning this tragic event is alright, but I have the feeling that nothing gets done about it - neither in the US nor anywhere else.
That's all good and well, but what do you suggest we do then? I, for example, live in Europe. Can't immediately travel over to America and go shout against gun laws with a cut board in my hands.
There's 2 problems with tragedies like this that always come to the forefront in the U.S.
1)The NRA are a powerful group with influencial lobbyists who's attitude to things like this is to quote that loony Charleston Heston about how you'd have to pry his guns from his cold, dead hands rather than helping or supporting any kind of legislation to curb the sale of weapons.
2) There is a serious lack of political will to do anything about it. People on both sides of congress are leery about taking any measures to curb sales of guns.
Like every other similar tragedy over the last 10-20 yrs, media will go overboard and sensationalize this horror story but will soon grow bored and move on to other things, while the government hems and haws and any serious discussions about gun control will be swept under the rug.
There's 2 problems with tragedies like this that always come to the forefront in the U.S.
1)The NRA are a powerful group with influencial lobbyists who's attitude to things like this is to quote that loony Charleston Heston about how you'd have to pry his guns from his cold, dead hands rather than helping or supporting any kind of legislation to curb the sale of weapons.
2) There is a serious lack of political will to do anything about it. People on both sides of congress are leery about taking any measures to curb sales of guns.
Like every other similar tragedy over the last 10-20 yrs, media will go overboard and sensationalize this horror story but will soon grow bored and move on to other things, while the government hems and haws and any serious discussions about gun control will be swept under the rug.
't Is how the world works, sadly. Lots of shiny promises, but little actual actions.
System of a Down Hypnotize : Mezmerize the simple minded Propaganda leaves us blinded I'm wondering how right they are. Media are more interested by all the money this can make rather than with the "human" part. Exemples of this thinking way are so much. Why don't we talk about the bees, being killed by almond in California, ruining our planet ? But you understand, 730 000 tones of almond, at almost $1000 each tones...
So much reason to stop watching news. However, i must recognize the talent of media, who are just transforming millions of people into goats.
I hope you are not taking me for an extremist ^^, i just want to tell you how angry this uses of our media makes me. I'm sorry but i must tell you that i think there is things which are such more important than these stories (sorry for the families if you read me).
BUT just open your eyes!! look outside, see how the world is going wrong. I'm not a supporter of the theory of conspiracy, but these stories are keeping us blinded from more important things.
I not going to conclude my post sadly, we don't need that, so just a funny picture from a Borderlands DLC: (Not to be taken in first degree)
@bivbi: I don't think you need to tell any of us, here. The people you need to tell are those watching Fox News and not using any more Internet than Facebook at most.
@Chow i think you're right, but who knows, maybe one day one of thoose people will lost himself on internet and go strait for my post... This is rather unlikely, but this could happen.. Ok it can't, but sometimes you must tell what you think to somebody, and i'm not going to yell at my friend face "DON'T WATCH THE NEWS!!!!!", he will probably look at me like "Man, are you drunk??". Next time i will talk to my cat, i promise . He will be like : Who says i'm mad 0_o
The U.S. has a bit of history with the right to possess guns. Without them, the Revolutionary War and Civil War would have undoubtedly been much different if the acting "Government" at those times were the only ones who could possess the guns.
What if your government took things too far? Sure, war and revolution is a scary thing that costs billions of lives, but history has shown in many cases that sometimes it is necessary to rise up and conquer tyranny. They want you to be afraid of them. They want to keep their power and money. They want you to think that your important to them. Really, they want to keep their money.
I am not saying go out and grab a gun and start a militia, but if the time comes where a large majority of people have had enough, they should be able to take up arms and set things right. Just because we claim to be in some modern age where it is so horrific that bad things happen, doesn't mean that they shouldn't...sometimes.
Do you think revolution could only happend while weapons are in the hands of the oppresed ? This is a real question, because i can't remember a peaceful revolution, exept for Gandhi or Martin Luther King, but recently, in Syria or in Lybia, there was(and is for Syria) weapons in both sides. Really interesting, doing philosophy on a video game forum^^.
I remember someone says something very interesting : Remember back to your early teachings. "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." Even the Jedi. But i can't remember who
One of the ways to prevent such things would be NOT to make a big media affair of them.
And I'm not being cold or sarcastic there. I have read several articles (not all of them on Internet) which analyzed... hmm... let's call it a 'media trigger'. Most of it was about suicides, but the principle is the same, I think. And the principle is this - if there is a suicide and medias (TV, newspapers, etc) make a big case of it, talking about it for several days, giving details, interviewing families etc, ... a great surge in suicides follows, most of them in age group of the 'original', and often copying the method.
The slaughter was number one topic in evening news today - evening, because I live in Europe. All across the ocean. What good did it do to show 10 minute long footage of the scene of tragedy? There's nothing I can do help. There's nothing I can do to prevent such things from happening. All I can do is to be a little more scared of the world I'm living in, to be even less trustful of other people, to isolate myself and my family more. How many parents all over the world will look at their children and won't be able to sleep at night thinking about 'what if ...?' More to the point, how many quiet sociopaths out there will get inspired?
Well, that´s the role of news isn´t it? To spread what negativity they can throughout the world.
Do you think revolution could only happend while weapons are in the hands of the oppresed ? This is a real question, because i can't remember a peaceful revolution, exept for Gandhi or Martin Luther King, but recently, in Syria or in Lybia, there was(and is for Syria) weapons in both sides. Really interesting, doing philosophy on a video game forum^^.
I remember someone says something very interesting : Remember back to your early teachings. "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." Even the Jedi. But i can't remember who
I just doubt it would happen if the oppressed had crudely made spears and bottles filled with gasoline and a flaming rag, while the government had much more at their disposal. It's an interesting thought really, what a modern day revolutionary war would be like. Advances in weapons and higher population means many more casualties for sure. What would come of it? In a weakened state would the country then be attacked by an opposing country? Scary thought for sure.
I don't buy the whole "some people just want to see the world burn," rhetoric. I don't believe evil simply exists, but rather it is learned or triggered behavior, and even so, not seen as evil through the eyes of those doing it. The case where men appear innately evil, are likely due to having physiological or mental anomalies, which make them an exception to the rule.
The human brain is a reactive system - it learns and processes information based on what it is exposed to, whether it be home life, exposure to the environment and/or the society that surrounds them or whatever else. This explains why different people from different regions of the world have different cultures, social stigmas, morals and value systems. There are so many variables at work when determining a persons actions, that simply saying "he is evil" is naive and irresponsible.
On the issue of gun control, The problem is, many people in America are very "ask questions later" when it comes to guns and using them. Many people would simply shoot any perp, regardless if he/she was armed or of any immediate threat, and they would likely shoot to kill. People seem very quick to hurt (or kill) others when they are presented with even the slightest indication of danger - and these are the people without mental illness...
I hear the argument that people need psycho evaluations or whatnot before being able to purchase a gun, but evaluations would only do so much, because even the most model citizen, can "snap," whether it be stress or meltdowns, etc. that can lead to irrational behavior and heinous crimes. The question then is, how relevant are acts like this when it comes to determining whether or not people should be allowed to own firearms?
A lot of this also falls on society and the culture in which people live in. Changing things at the core, (society) would essentially reshape the the people within it, which could potentially lead to not even needing a gun in the first place. Whether or not people should have the "right" to own a gun isn't the real issue. The important issue is (or should be) regardless if it's their right or not, is it the best interest to allow it?
The bottom line is that people are fragile beings. We are not as intelligent or "elite" as we lead ourselves to believe, and far from being truly civilized. The events that transpired in Connecticut, aren't the results of some crazed gunman. Something triggered this moment, whether it was one event or series, the man can't simply be chalked up as "crazy, and left at that, but this is what people always do - point the finger and blame individuals, when the true culprit is society and mechanisms that operate within it.
The news are indeed terrible, but so is this world. Personally, I wouldn't give any criminal a second chance - this is my comment in regards to death penalty, which should be used for rapists/murderers/etc.
But for my policy to work, the society would need to be changed quite a bit. Some see thieving as their only possible way to bring bread to their family, but that's quite rare in europe these days (with how even unemployed people are fed and cared for (at least here.)
However, rape/murder have no excuse what so ever to be forgiven in civilized life, and thus the people committing such acts should be Dealt With Immediately. One last meal and certainly no prayers or quiet moments. Also, all drug-related and organized crime should be purged.
Actually, if we go towards extremes, I vote for something towards a "police state".
EDIT: Banning guns is not the solution. I see owning a firearm as just one more hobby, especially a noble one if you hunt (obeying the law and all that.) Had I the money, I would buy more than a few guns and visit a firing range monthly.
EDIT 2: Due to media making a mess of such things, I've had a major setback in my life. See: school shooting crisis around two years ago. There was a shooting in Finland, which started a huge number of investigations, most of which were based on rumours/talk of "oh, that guy/girl dosn't look normal and listens to metal, he/she has to be a school shooter."
There are also very interesting documents of how this ruined lives of many people in EU. Especially the one about this finnish boy was very touching, and sad. A guy dosn't get along with people from school, has friends who live in another town, dosn't talk to anyone in school and wears a LEATHER JACKET = Immediate report of being a shooter and taken in by a large force of police, all geared up. Also of course sent to every possible psychological evaluation/test. From that moment on, the boy in question has suffered from more than a few traumas.
The translation might be horrible, thanks to Google, but still!
Words to note for English folk: School shooter = kouluampuja
Banning guns is useless, it's not the gun Which pull itself the trigger but us, it's not a gun, a knife, a rope and so on Who killed people but us the humanity, even the tiny object can kill someone if bad people use it, the only option to avoid those tragedies is to put an end to humanity madness but unfortunately that's impossible....
The news are indeed terrible, but so is this world. Personally, I wouldn't give any criminal a second chance - this is my comment in regards to death penalty, which should be used for rapists/murderers/etc.
But for my policy to work, the society would need to be changed quite a bit. Some see thieving as their only possible way to bring bread to their family, but that's quite rare in europe these days (with how even unemployed people are fed and cared for (at least here.)
However, rape/murder have no excuse what so ever to be forgiven in civilized life, and thus the people committing such acts should be Dealt With Immediately. One last meal and certainly no prayers or quiet moments. Also, all drug-related and organized crime should be purged.
But what exactly does a death penalty solve? There are still criminals, and we still don't know the triggering mechanisms which lead to the crime. In a more "civil" society, abhorrent behavior wouldn't be met with such swift punishment, since the criminal is likely a symptom not the cause.
If a crime was committed against me or my family, and I was prosecuting a suspect at trial, my only demand would be that the defendant would not be incarcerated or put to death, but rather ordered to be a part of scientific studies, to try and figure out why he did what he did, and what the underlying causes were, and then to address those causes, even if it involved changing parts of everyday society or the culture we have become accustomed to.
What if I made it clear that if my demands couldn't be met, then I wouldn't want any action taken against the defendant, since it's not vengeance or revenge I am looking for, it's actual progress being made, and seeing as incarceration or capital punishment does neither of this, neither of them would be effective. You think the courts would grant me this? Of course the courts would never go for that, since in doing so, would be acknowledging that our society is the true reason for crime and a breeding ground for criminals, and the "lock em up and throw away the key," mentality that we currently show towards convicted criminals, is so much easier and satisfying...
@HORSE: Oh, so you wouldn't feel any anger towards the murderer of your father, the rapist of your sister...?
Man, wish I'd be as cool as you.
If such things happened to my family, I'd make sure the culprit ended up in bits and pieces. No kidding.
It isn't about whether I would be mad or not, it's about doing the responsible "right" thing, regardless of these feelings. This is one of the big problems with the judicial system - it runs more on emotion than logic. People see a bunch of kids murdered, they want to see someone "pay" for their crimes, rather than see why they were committed in the first place.
We have a trial by jury, and when criminals are deemed guilty, the whole process is supposed to show how "justice is served," but in actuality it is merely a palatable form of revenge against the accused - disguising it to seem more "just" or civil than seeing it for what it actually is.
If a crime was committed against me or my family, and I was prosecuting a suspect at trial, my only demand would be that the defendant would not be incarcerated or put to death, but rather ordered to be a part of scientific studies, to try and figure out why he did what he did, and what the underlying causes were, and then to address those causes, even if it involved changing parts of everyday society or the culture we have become accustomed to.
What if I made it clear that if my demands couldn't be met, then I wouldn't want any action taken against the defendant, since it's not vengeance or revenge I am looking for, it's actual progress being made, and seeing as incarceration or capital punishment does neither of this, neither of them would be effective. You think the courts would grant me this? Of course, the courts would never go for that, since in doing so, would me acknowledging that our society is the true reason for crime, and the "lock em up and throw away the key," mentality that we show towards convicted criminals, so much easier and satisfying...
Holy s-... Reading that actually made me feel sick, just trying to imagine such a scenario, and the thought of acting like what you wrote. Forgiving murder?
My apologies for taking this so off-topic. I do truely feel for everyone affected by this accident (except the shooter, logically.)
@HORSE: Oh, so you wouldn't feel any anger towards the murderer of your father, the rapist of your sister...?
Man, wish I'd be as cool as you.
If such things happened to my family, I'd make sure the culprit ended up in bits and pieces. No kidding.
Yeah...as much as it would be great to be so noble and moral and all, I agree. You mess with family, you deserve whatever evil people can conjure up. Some people say "Oh well that makes you no better than them!" I don't see it that way. You can study people all you want. Killers are still going to kill. You can take guns away from them, but they are still going to kill.
I don't know if ripping apart someone limb from limb would make me feel better about them killing a family member or someone close, but I guarantee you I would feel just slightly better about it. I would not feel happy with someone taking him in to feed and clothe him, and study him to try to figure out why he is a son of a bitch. As I said, there's always going to be killers.
Holy s-... Reading that actually made me feel sick, just trying to imagine such a scenario, and the thought of acting like what you wrote. Forgiving murder?
Murder isn't necessarily evil, just as having sex with the same gender doesn't necessarily make you gay. It's the underlying causes that lead to the actions that are actually more important the actions themselves, and until we acknowledge this and start looking at changing the important things, things won't change. You can't simply keep locking up or killing criminals and think that it somehow eliminates the need/desire to commit crimes.
Like I mentioned before, humans are far from being truly civilized, as is seen in not only the crimes we commit, but the reactions we have towards these criminals.
I'm agree with thedemoninside because I know that if anything happen to me, my children, my friends, I know that my brother gonna slaughter the guy and all the people he met for the people who dare to touch one of us. And like demoninside said, there's always gonna be killers.
...You can't simply keep locking up or killing criminals and think that it somehow eliminates the need/desire to commit crimes.
Like I mentioned before, humans are far from being truly civilized, as is seen in not only the crimes we commit, but the reactions we have towards these criminals.
Any human being with rational thinking should lose the "desire" to commit crimes if they knew the punishment what they would be facing. Murder = Death Penalty should make more than a few people think about their actions again (-SHOULD-. I doubt that most murderers are capable of "logical intelligent thinking", instead they seem to be mislead, corrupt and straight evil.)
Now, the need of committing such crimes. Tell me, what need justifies the act of walking into a school and shooting kids? Nope, I do not follow. How about raping someone? However, if we talk about robbery/thieving etc. Then these needs could be fixed by changing the society and the support/funding/whatever. The western way of life (money, money, money [consume, consume, consume] is quite broken and has driven many immigrants to robbing in France. If you want, I can start pulling up news, some muslims said that they would rather break into french homes, rob them and earn ten times the money what they would just by being unemployed. After all, with ten times the money they can have ten times more fun.)
Then to humans being civilized. Defending your land, your folks, your family and your loved ones is the very base of being civilized. How else can we ever hope to be independent and Free?
Now, I don't know what independence means to you, but my family is very much affected by the Last War. My grandfather still suffers because someone in the east decided that they want a larger sandbox. I can also proudly say that I am a Finn and if something happens, I am immediately called to arms.
Any human being with rational thinking should lose the "desire" to commit crimes if they knew the punishment what they would be facing. Murder = Death Penalty should make more than a few people think about their actions again
The punishment system is entirely ineffective, as can be seen by the overpopulation of the prison system. It is essentially nothing more than a scare tactic, using fear or intimidation as a way to combat committing crime - like a kid saying "I double dog dare you." Seeing as how our current methods aren't working, perhaps it's time to think outside the box. Perhaps punishment isn't the actions we should taking. Perhaps we can learn something from these people and their actions, and use it as preventive measures.
James Gilligan, a psychiatrist and author, has spent 25 years in the American prison system, to describe the motivation and causes behind violent behavior. Here is quote from one of his books:
"The most effective way to turn a nonviolent person into a violent one is to send him to prison...The criminal and penal systems have been operating under a huge mistake, namely, the belief that punishment will deter, prevent or inhibit violence, when in fact it is the most powerful stimulant of violence we have yet discovered."
It reminds me of a crime kills hundreds of ppl in subway and the cause was a disabled man felt discouraged and wanted bring other ppl with him when he suicide set fire on subway train. Hope there is no more of this kind of sick crime. It makes me sad.
The punishment system is entirely ineffective, as can be seen by the overpopulation of the prison system...
Now, I never said the modern punishment system is effective. Quite the opposite, I'm with you there. Especially the system in The Americas has failed terribly. Same thing here. Hell, there are even confirmed reports of people committing crimes again to, allow me to quote "Get back to prison. Where they have warm food, a bed and their own crew looking after them."
Would we have this problem if criminals were Disposed of? The fight against crime could use a serious boost. Now, you could argue that human life is precious, but is the life of someone who kills for fun/money/whatever for no real need worth anything?
The modern system lets the big guys behind the drug business walk free because there is not enough evidence linking them to the "small rats" on the streets. And cutting down the budget from law enforcement all over the world isn't exactly helping either. Now, if we had active patrols, nonstop surveillance and all the technology what we have available free for use for law enforcement, we'd be doing some serious progress. Then again, the punishment system would need to be fixed for this progress to have any effect in long term.
I admit, my posts are quite Cold, but what can I say? I'm thinking of good for us law abiding citizens.
Perhaps punishment isn't the actions we should taking. Perhaps we can learn something from these people and their actions, and use it as preventive measures.
If punishment is not the action we should be taking, then what is? I don't exactly see many functional alternatives. Excuse me? What do you want to do? Feed them with our money, pat them on their head and say "Aww, sorry for your rough childhood" and ask "what drove you to do such things? I mean, surely you could've just called us first and said you were going to shoot those 20 kids?"
If punishment is not the action we should be taking, then what is? I don't exactly see many functional alternatives. Excuse me? What do you want to do? Feed them with our money, pat them on their head and say "Aww, sorry for your rough childhood" and ask "what drove you to do such things? I mean, surely you could've just called us first and said you were going to shoot those 20 kids?"
First off, in order for any of the methods I suggest to manifest in reality, a tremendous undertaking would need to take place, that would be nothing short of a complete redesign of society. That being said, once the said groundwork was laid the following is a proposed plan of action.
NOTE: the following words are not my own, but the ideas they convey are ones I agree with, therefore I felt it unnecessary to explain my point in my words, since this explains the ideas better than I could -
Issues of Rape/Murder should be dealt with by restraint- removal form society- not punishment - put into psychiatric facilities- for they are sick. A person who feels compelled and excited by violating others suffers from a condition- and you can bet there is something in their history which set it loose.
Punishment does little with such cases, except serve as "revenge"- which is pointless. Punishment in general is removed and the educational system is targeted to avoid the social neurosis in the future. Is that "social engineering"? Yes it is. All formal education/learning is social engineering and programming.
While evolutionary psychologists will tell you that rape is common throughout history, it still has a root in learning/reactions/reinforcement and is also statistically very small in the number of events occurring even today.
In the future, if the social sciences do their job to learn about how human propensities manifest, rape and murder can be stopped before they are even considered. Will they disappear forever? probably not. Sickness in society grows and mutates in complex ways and just like we might never find a cure for all forms of emerging disease, we might not be able to stop all forms of aberrant behavior- but that doesn't change the need for the focus. This isn't a utopia. But that also doesn't mean that such events couldn't become so seldom that a formalized "on duty" police force could become unneeded.
Social Restraint should become a humane science - not the horror of the punishment prison system which makes everyone worse, statistically. People change from being nurtured- not abused.
If people are provided with the necessities of life and a relevant, grounded social/scientific eduction, with no money - 95% of all crime is gone. The last 5% are the ego/sexual/anger distortions which - again - need to be studied. Every new case is a new study to learn from. That is the way it should work... sadly very few think about it this way.
There is no such thing as human nature in the conventional sense of being a set of predetermined, pre-programmed behaviors and values to which all human beings are predisposed. What we are concerned with is human behavior and values, which can certainly be changed. If they could not, we would still be living in caves.
The question we should be concerned with is, "What are the factors that shape human behavior?" I feel that human behavior is just as lawful as any natural phenomenon. Our customs, behaviors, and values are by-products of our culture. If the environment is unaltered, similar problems and behaviors will reoccur.
Take, for example, the situation witnessed after WWII: even the most respectable families could be seen fighting over scraps of food. When people's basic needs are not met, they resort to whatever behavior is necessary to ensure the necessities of life for themselves and their families. By making the necessities of life available to all and through a meaningful and productive education, we can dramatically reduce counterproductive behavior.
Reshaping someone's identity is indeed a very hard task. It is better alternative to imprisoning or death penalty, in my opinion, though. Now, as I am writing this post, I can think of three main ways of dealing with crime:
Prevention: This includes social engineering, better education, providing proper environment for children and people at all. I also put here fighting poverty, racism, proper health care for all...
Reshaping: This is rehabilitation, socialization and things that will "convince" criminals that what they did was "wrong", and showing them how they are supposed to behave in society. In other terms, this solution comes after a crime has been committed...
Restriction: This point is the last resort and it is for those cases where Prevention and Reshaping will not be effective. For example, if an individual is clinically ill/psychotic, he/she should be restricted in some manner if no cure for his symptoms is currently present(This includes pills, hospitalization...)...
All the three ways should work as a whole unit on society level and each one on individual level. The most important thing that should be done is to identify the reasons for committing a crime. Killing for food is kinda different from killing because of bad childhood...
Since this topic turned to "for and against banning guns", I will say one more thing(I don't like long posts. Boring to read, aren't they?). Guns can harm or they can protect but they are not the main reason for crimes, however.
The anti-gun control people are for every citizen carrying a gun. One of those people could argue that surely if those elementary school children all had guns this never would have happened amirite?
Can we trust children with guns?
How about trusting adults? How about adults who just got divorced? How about an adult who just lost all their money in a bad investment? How about a muslim, an orthodox jew or an athiest with a gun? Depending on what you believe this may concern you. How about a person with minor mental problems? Where are all these people storing their guns and who else has access to their guns?
Just imagine someone you don't trust. Now imagine that person with a gun. I'd prefer to imagine that person with a knife.
I don't think death penalty is a solution. It's never a solution. I know americans have difficulties to understand that, but the problem is not to kill the murderer, but to make him recognize and expiate his errors. The only for that is jail or psychological center. And the real problem is how jail/psy center are made. Instead of cure them, they make them mad, and make them recidivist. Our prison (in all contries) are not working in the good way, and this is a problem. Normally, a guy who goes out from jail understand his errors and won't do them again. But this isn't the case.
The problem is not a question of fire arms, of death penalty, but a probleme of how the goverment don't solve the problem and hide it in prison, who aren't a center where prisonner are educated, but simply a way to hide the problem for their eyes and the population's. It's like a child : "I can't see it so it doesn't exist anymore".
And to talk about the guns, a person who wan't to kill another will always reach succes, even with his hands or with a club. No need a gun. You can even crush someone with your car. People who are killed maybe possess fire arms, but didn't were them when they were killed (not in this case, i hope that 6-7 children do not have guns).
I think it is written in the US constitution guns are for protect the private property (tell me if i'm wrong), so keep them at home seems to be logic, and you never be killed in your home (exept in rare cases, films and Baldur's Gate). The only use is for thiefs, but they got also one, so if you don't have one, you might not be killed, or lessly likely to be killed than if you point the gun and ask him not to move until the police arrive, because you can't make justice yourself, you are not a god, and if you do, you transgress the us "In god we trust", because you do yourself his job, implying he didn't did it well.
Comments
1)The NRA are a powerful group with influencial lobbyists who's attitude to things like this is to quote that loony Charleston Heston about how you'd have to pry his guns from his cold, dead hands rather than helping or supporting any kind of legislation to curb the sale of weapons.
2) There is a serious lack of political will to do anything about it. People on both sides of congress are leery about taking any measures to curb sales of guns.
Like every other similar tragedy over the last 10-20 yrs, media will go overboard and sensationalize this horror story but will soon grow bored and move on to other things, while the government hems and haws and any serious discussions about gun control will be swept under the rug.
Mezmerize the simple minded
Propaganda leaves us blinded
I'm wondering how right they are.
Media are more interested by all the money this can make rather than with the "human" part.
Exemples of this thinking way are so much. Why don't we talk about the bees, being killed by almond in California, ruining our planet ? But you understand, 730 000 tones of almond, at almost $1000 each tones...
So much reason to stop watching news.
However, i must recognize the talent of media, who are just transforming millions of people into goats.
I hope you are not taking me for an extremist ^^, i just want to tell you how angry this uses of our media makes me.
I'm sorry but i must tell you that i think there is things which are such more important than these stories (sorry for the families if you read me).
BUT just open your eyes!! look outside, see how the world is going wrong. I'm not a supporter of the theory of conspiracy, but these stories are keeping us blinded from more important things.
I not going to conclude my post sadly, we don't need that, so just a funny picture from a Borderlands DLC:
(Not to be taken in first degree)
He will be like :
Who says i'm mad 0_o
What if your government took things too far? Sure, war and revolution is a scary thing that costs billions of lives, but history has shown in many cases that sometimes it is necessary to rise up and conquer tyranny. They want you to be afraid of them. They want to keep their power and money. They want you to think that your important to them. Really, they want to keep their money.
I am not saying go out and grab a gun and start a militia, but if the time comes where a large majority of people have had enough, they should be able to take up arms and set things right. Just because we claim to be in some modern age where it is so horrific that bad things happen, doesn't mean that they shouldn't...sometimes.
I remember someone says something very interesting :
Remember back to your early teachings. "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." Even the Jedi.
But i can't remember who
The human brain is a reactive system - it learns and processes information based on what it is exposed to, whether it be home life, exposure to the environment and/or the society that surrounds them or whatever else. This explains why different people from different regions of the world have different cultures, social stigmas, morals and value systems. There are so many variables at work when determining a persons actions, that simply saying "he is evil" is naive and irresponsible.
On the issue of gun control, The problem is, many people in America are very "ask questions later" when it comes to guns and using them. Many people would simply shoot any perp, regardless if he/she was armed or of any immediate threat, and they would likely shoot to kill. People seem very quick to hurt (or kill) others when they are presented with even the slightest indication of danger - and these are the people without mental illness...
I hear the argument that people need psycho evaluations or whatnot before being able to purchase a gun, but evaluations would only do so much, because even the most model citizen, can "snap," whether it be stress or meltdowns, etc. that can lead to irrational behavior and heinous crimes. The question then is, how relevant are acts like this when it comes to determining whether or not people should be allowed to own firearms?
A lot of this also falls on society and the culture in which people live in. Changing things at the core, (society) would essentially reshape the the people within it, which could potentially lead to not even needing a gun in the first place. Whether or not people should have the "right" to own a gun isn't the real issue. The important issue is (or should be) regardless if it's their right or not, is it the best interest to allow it?
The bottom line is that people are fragile beings. We are not as intelligent or "elite" as we lead ourselves to believe, and far from being truly civilized. The events that transpired in Connecticut, aren't the results of some crazed gunman. Something triggered this moment, whether it was one event or series, the man can't simply be chalked up as "crazy, and left at that, but this is what people always do - point the finger and blame individuals, when the true culprit is society and mechanisms that operate within it.
But for my policy to work, the society would need to be changed quite a bit. Some see thieving as their only possible way to bring bread to their family, but that's quite rare in europe these days (with how even unemployed people are fed and cared for (at least here.)
However, rape/murder have no excuse what so ever to be forgiven in civilized life, and thus the people committing such acts should be Dealt With Immediately. One last meal and certainly no prayers or quiet moments. Also, all drug-related and organized crime should be purged.
Actually, if we go towards extremes, I vote for something towards a "police state".
EDIT: Banning guns is not the solution. I see owning a firearm as just one more hobby, especially a noble one if you hunt (obeying the law and all that.) Had I the money, I would buy more than a few guns and visit a firing range monthly.
EDIT 2: Due to media making a mess of such things, I've had a major setback in my life. See: school shooting crisis around two years ago. There was a shooting in Finland, which started a huge number of investigations, most of which were based on rumours/talk of "oh, that guy/girl dosn't look normal and listens to metal, he/she has to be a school shooter."
There are also very interesting documents of how this ruined lives of many people in EU. Especially the one about this finnish boy was very touching, and sad. A guy dosn't get along with people from school, has friends who live in another town, dosn't talk to anyone in school and wears a LEATHER JACKET = Immediate report of being a shooter and taken in by a large force of police, all geared up. Also of course sent to every possible psychological evaluation/test. From that moment on, the boy in question has suffered from more than a few traumas.
Words to note for English folk: School shooter = kouluampuja
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http://atuubi.yle.fi/node/12465&act=url
If a crime was committed against me or my family, and I was prosecuting a suspect at trial, my only demand would be that the defendant would not be incarcerated or put to death, but rather ordered to be a part of scientific studies, to try and figure out why he did what he did, and what the underlying causes were, and then to address those causes, even if it involved changing parts of everyday society or the culture we have become accustomed to.
What if I made it clear that if my demands couldn't be met, then I wouldn't want any action taken against the defendant, since it's not vengeance or revenge I am looking for, it's actual progress being made, and seeing as incarceration or capital punishment does neither of this, neither of them would be effective. You think the courts would grant me this? Of course the courts would never go for that, since in doing so, would be acknowledging that our society is the true reason for crime and a breeding ground for criminals, and the "lock em up and throw away the key," mentality that we currently show towards convicted criminals, is so much easier and satisfying...
Man, wish I'd be as cool as you.
If such things happened to my family, I'd make sure the culprit ended up in bits and pieces. No kidding.
We have a trial by jury, and when criminals are deemed guilty, the whole process is supposed to show how "justice is served," but in actuality it is merely a palatable form of revenge against the accused - disguising it to seem more "just" or civil than seeing it for what it actually is.
Amen Holy s-... Reading that actually made me feel sick, just trying to imagine such a scenario, and the thought of acting like what you wrote. Forgiving murder?
My apologies for taking this so off-topic. I do truely feel for everyone affected by this accident (except the shooter, logically.)
I don't know if ripping apart someone limb from limb would make me feel better about them killing a family member or someone close, but I guarantee you I would feel just slightly better about it. I would not feel happy with someone taking him in to feed and clothe him, and study him to try to figure out why he is a son of a bitch. As I said, there's always going to be killers.
Like I mentioned before, humans are far from being truly civilized, as is seen in not only the crimes we commit, but the reactions we have towards these criminals.
Now, the need of committing such crimes. Tell me, what need justifies the act of walking into a school and shooting kids? Nope, I do not follow. How about raping someone?
However, if we talk about robbery/thieving etc. Then these needs could be fixed by changing the society and the support/funding/whatever. The western way of life (money, money, money [consume, consume, consume] is quite broken and has driven many immigrants to robbing in France. If you want, I can start pulling up news, some muslims said that they would rather break into french homes, rob them and earn ten times the money what they would just by being unemployed. After all, with ten times the money they can have ten times more fun.)
Then to humans being civilized. Defending your land, your folks, your family and your loved ones is the very base of being civilized. How else can we ever hope to be independent and Free?
Now, I don't know what independence means to you, but my family is very much affected by the Last War. My grandfather still suffers because someone in the east decided that they want a larger sandbox. I can also proudly say that I am a Finn and if something happens, I am immediately called to arms.
James Gilligan, a psychiatrist and author, has spent 25 years in the American prison system, to describe the motivation and causes behind violent behavior. Here is quote from one of his books:
"The most effective way to turn a nonviolent person into a violent one is to send him to prison...The criminal and penal systems have been operating under a huge mistake, namely, the belief that punishment will deter, prevent or inhibit violence, when in fact it is the most powerful stimulant of violence we have yet discovered."
Hope there is no more of this kind of sick crime.
It makes me sad.
Would we have this problem if criminals were Disposed of? The fight against crime could use a serious boost. Now, you could argue that human life is precious, but is the life of someone who kills for fun/money/whatever for no real need worth anything?
The modern system lets the big guys behind the drug business walk free because there is not enough evidence linking them to the "small rats" on the streets. And cutting down the budget from law enforcement all over the world isn't exactly helping either. Now, if we had active patrols, nonstop surveillance and all the technology what we have available free for use for law enforcement, we'd be doing some serious progress. Then again, the punishment system would need to be fixed for this progress to have any effect in long term.
I admit, my posts are quite Cold, but what can I say? I'm thinking of good for us law abiding citizens. If punishment is not the action we should be taking, then what is? I don't exactly see many functional alternatives.
Excuse me? What do you want to do? Feed them with our money, pat them on their head and say "Aww, sorry for your rough childhood" and ask "what drove you to do such things? I mean, surely you could've just called us first and said you were going to shoot those 20 kids?"
NOTE: the following words are not my own, but the ideas they convey are ones I agree with, therefore I felt it unnecessary to explain my point in my words, since this explains the ideas better than I could -
Issues of Rape/Murder should be dealt with by restraint- removal form society- not punishment - put into psychiatric facilities- for they are sick. A person who feels compelled and excited by violating others suffers from a condition- and you can bet there is something in their history which set it loose.
Punishment does little with such cases, except serve as "revenge"- which is pointless. Punishment in general is removed and the educational system is targeted to avoid the social neurosis in the future. Is that "social engineering"? Yes it is. All formal education/learning is social engineering and programming.
While evolutionary psychologists will tell you that rape is common throughout history, it still has a root in learning/reactions/reinforcement and is also statistically very small in the number of events occurring even today.
In the future, if the social sciences do their job to learn about how human propensities manifest, rape and murder can be stopped before they are even considered. Will they disappear forever? probably not. Sickness in society grows and mutates in complex ways and just like we might never find a cure for all forms of emerging disease, we might not be able to stop all forms of aberrant behavior- but that doesn't change the need for the focus. This isn't a utopia. But that also doesn't mean that such events couldn't become so seldom that a formalized "on duty" police force could become unneeded.
Social Restraint should become a humane science - not the horror of the punishment prison system which makes everyone worse, statistically. People change from being nurtured- not abused.
If people are provided with the necessities of life and a relevant, grounded social/scientific eduction, with no money - 95% of all crime is gone. The last 5% are the ego/sexual/anger distortions which - again - need to be studied. Every new case is a new study to learn from. That is the way it should work... sadly very few think about it this way.
There is no such thing as human nature in the conventional sense of being a set of predetermined, pre-programmed behaviors and values to which all human beings are predisposed. What we are concerned with is human behavior and values, which can certainly be changed. If they could not, we would still be living in caves.
The question we should be concerned with is, "What are the factors that shape human behavior?" I feel that human behavior is just as lawful as any natural phenomenon. Our customs, behaviors, and values are by-products of our culture. If the environment is unaltered, similar problems and behaviors will reoccur.
Take, for example, the situation witnessed after WWII: even the most respectable families could be seen fighting over scraps of food. When people's basic needs are not met, they resort to whatever behavior is necessary to ensure the necessities of life for themselves and their families. By making the necessities of life available to all and through a meaningful and productive education, we can dramatically reduce counterproductive behavior.
Prevention: This includes social engineering, better education, providing proper environment for children and people at all. I also put here fighting poverty, racism, proper health care for all...
Reshaping: This is rehabilitation, socialization and things that will "convince" criminals that what they did was "wrong", and showing them how they are supposed to behave in society. In other terms, this solution comes after a crime has been committed...
Restriction: This point is the last resort and it is for those cases where Prevention and Reshaping will not be effective. For example, if an individual is clinically ill/psychotic, he/she should be restricted in some manner if no cure for his symptoms is currently present(This includes pills, hospitalization...)...
All the three ways should work as a whole unit on society level and each one on individual level. The most important thing that should be done is to identify the reasons for committing a crime. Killing for food is kinda different from killing because of bad childhood...
Since this topic turned to "for and against banning guns", I will say one more thing(I don't like long posts. Boring to read, aren't they?). Guns can harm or they can protect but they are not the main reason for crimes, however.
Can we trust children with guns?
How about trusting adults? How about adults who just got divorced? How about an adult who just lost all their money in a bad investment? How about a muslim, an orthodox jew or an athiest with a gun? Depending on what you believe this may concern you. How about a person with minor mental problems? Where are all these people storing their guns and who else has access to their guns?
Just imagine someone you don't trust. Now imagine that person with a gun. I'd prefer to imagine that person with a knife.
The problem is not a question of fire arms, of death penalty, but a probleme of how the goverment don't solve the problem and hide it in prison, who aren't a center where prisonner are educated, but simply a way to hide the problem for their eyes and the population's. It's like a child : "I can't see it so it doesn't exist anymore".
And to talk about the guns, a person who wan't to kill another will always reach succes, even with his hands or with a club. No need a gun. You can even crush someone with your car.
People who are killed maybe possess fire arms, but didn't were them when they were killed (not in this case, i hope that 6-7 children do not have guns).
I think it is written in the US constitution guns are for protect the private property (tell me if i'm wrong), so keep them at home seems to be logic, and you never be killed in your home (exept in rare cases, films and Baldur's Gate). The only use is for thiefs, but they got also one, so if you don't have one, you might not be killed, or lessly likely to be killed than if you point the gun and ask him not to move until the police arrive, because you can't make justice yourself, you are not a god, and if you do, you transgress the us "In god we trust", because you do yourself his job, implying he didn't did it well.