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Some people just want to watch the world burn. 20 children dead in CT

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Comments

  • SilySily Member Posts: 90
    @smeagolheart

    Negative, you're bringing in an yet another extreme point of view. I'm a gun enthuasist(sp?), I like guns - but I also fully approve and encourage gun control. There needs to be a solid research into the history of anyone trying to get a license, which should be automatically rejected if there is any criminal record.

    Children with guns?
    What do you mean by this? Walking around with one, or trained how one works? If I had children (and the money), I sure as hell would train my kiddo how to operate a firearm at.. well, when I felt that they are "mature" enough. Certainly an air/gas powered rifle before real firearms, you know? However, I wouldn't -force- it upon my children. Now, I would never allow children free access to firearms without their parent/trainer being present. This can easily be done with simple security systems.

    Trusting adults?
    See above, gun control.

    Religious extremists?
    Hell no, not here. Well, I wouldn't even trust them with a knife.

    Hey, why do you mention a knife? I live in my own house and have more than a few axes for taking care of wood, and I would consider those much more dangerous than knives, which I have a collection of (from yankee combat knives to the traditional knife of lapland.) Any madman can walk into a hardware (I don't know what they are called in english, so forgive me if this is the wrong word) store and grab a heavy axe from the shelf. Even fire pokers and long grill sticks are lethal weapons! And Shovels! Oh my god, I'm armed to teeth and packing two kittens!

    Also, did you notice that this shooter didn't -own- a gun, instead he stole his mother's guns. Now, I would of course like to know why did her mother own guns? Did she feel unsafe or was it just another hobby? If I lived in The Americas, I would own as many guns as possible! Then again, I wouldn't live in a city.

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Sometimes I regret the death penalty was abolished in my country. Instead, we stuff our jails with all kinds of scum, who get out of prison only one year after their punishment and go happily killing/stealing/raping again. Personally, I think criminals are treated way too soft. Why should I care the murderer of my father (for example only, I still got a dad) has had a bad childhood? It's none of my concern. What concerns me is that he has killed my dad, and I want to see him suffer for it, not put in a prison where he can only team up with his buddies and share some of his tricks, only to be set free later on and kill, for example, my mother this turn. Evil is better eradicated, even though the root of evil isn't stopped by just killing all criminals.

    Sily
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    Wait!, I went passed this discussion yesterday, now I just realized the title almost fits me; well, at least the part about the world burning.
    First, I have to say nothing seems evil in nature to me, just poor understanding regarding Good and Wrong.
    Second, this planet is overpopulated. I'm not saying I wish for it, but I sure don't mind nature cleaning the dirt with a disaster or two, something like tsunami or earthquake, or a hurricane; I almost wish for it, but I won't give into passion. What I wish is to leave the City State for the mountains; I'd rather wash the flooring of a church and work the soil for tomatoes than paying this loan sharks they call today banks.
    It feels like people don't ask question anymore; I say question everything!

    Sily
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2012
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Zafiro
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    edited December 2012
    @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud, "scum" that lives on public money; they should at least be put to work.

    As for the death penalty; “It is better to risk saving a guilty man than to condemn an innocent one.” - Voltaire

    MedullaOblongata
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    edited December 2012
    @Shandyr, I agree; "The knowledge of an effect depends on and involves the knowledge of a cause." - Spinoza

    By the way: no criminal cares about gun control.. I'm pretty sure you can buy a gun at any corner. Besides, you can always use a blade.

    Sily
  • SilySily Member Posts: 90
    edited December 2012
    @Zafiro, are you saying that all who live on public money, as in, unemployed are "scum"? Or only those criminals who are let back out from prisons and paid for, and tried to fit back into the society? Hell, I would be glad if I got a job. I've been unemployed for a year (doing short gigs every now and then though, but unable to land a real, good job thanks to how Finland is right now.)

    In Finland there's this thing of taking young people in as trainees, or having their salary paid by the "employment and economic development office" - Now, this contract of having your salary paid by the office can only last for six months, and if the company dosn't have the money to keep you, bam, you're out. In the city where I live, 15% of "workforce" are unemployed.

    Zafiro
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,763
    If anyone ever wondered why I'm supporting death pentaly.... It is for scumbags like *that* guy. Sorry, but one who doesn't respect basic human laws shouldn't have his "laws" respected. In other words, mass murderers shouldn't be considered humans anymore. They're lower than trash.

    Silymch202
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    edited December 2012
    @Sily, I meant the convicted criminals..

    Sily
  • bivbibivbi Member Posts: 96
    @ZelgadisGW and saying that you make their games, if they aren't considered humans, they have no limits. That's exactly the problem, they justify themselves by how they are considered. If any goverment help them, instead of puting in a big trash called jail, they won't do again and again (and again....) crimes when they go out of jail. Murderer for exemple are like you and me, they have feelings and if are considered as a human beeing, they will have remorse, they will think back of what they did, because we are giving them time to think in jail, and realise by themselves how bad it is.
    Actually they are hidding their actions behind the buckler of inhumanity we give them. Considering them as human, and not as trash will help, i think. Don't you ever feel bad when you do something wrong, like, i don't know, cheating in class when you where young, borrow money to a friend when you know is poor, ... That's the same with murderer if we considered them as human, and not as trash, and if you feel bad / think back to what you did, you won't do it again.

    Forse
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,763
    @bivbi
    I'm psychologist student (thought I'm beginner) and I can see what are you trying to tell me. I just stated what I think of people like *that* guy. If I ever will be helping mentally dieseased people, by time I would have to take care of a murdrer, I'll just swallow my opinion and act profesional. I won't let my opinion interfere with my work.

    Thing is, some people don't feel bad about their action nor feel any remorse. In short they doesn't posses emphaty at all... And according to prof. Simon Baron-Cohen, lack of emphaty is one of the reasons why people are commiting very serious crimes. Person with almost-zero emphaty level will not think of what kind of suffering his victims feel, nor will be able to feel bad about them - *that* person will most likely see other people as a mere tools...

    Of course, there are also people who are commiting murder while suffering some serious mental disorders (extreme cause of depression is a good example). Those are the causes that require serious attention and help from profesionalists. That's, unfortunately, not area I feel competent enought to speak about.

  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432
    edited December 2012
    I wondered if some of you might like to see this, first broadcast in the UK in 2009, nail hit firmly on head here, I think.

    In case you don't know who Charlie Brooker is, he's a UK TV writer, critic and satirist and is regularly spot on with his rather snarky observations.

    EDIT: I should have said earlier, the clip is a little sweary

    Post edited by BaldursCat on
    ZafiroSilyswnmcmlxiTJ_Hooker
  • bivbibivbi Member Posts: 96
    edited December 2012
    But all people in jail don't have zero empathie or mental disorders, and these people (the non-mad with empathie) are going to lose their empathie or becoming mad in those jail i think, so the problem is (my personnel point of view) how jail are organized and rulled : they do the opposite of what they are suppose to do.

    edit : i'm not a psychologist (student), but a physics student, i'm just telling my mind with the help of the little piece of phylosophia i got.

    Sily
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    @bivbi: I agree with @ZelgadisGW here. Do you really think all criminals will just change heart like that? Some people don't have any remorse, they're just brooding on a new plan as soon as they get out of jail. A person without morals doesn't feel any empathy and thus I do not treat him as a being with empathy. Some people are just too selfish and caught up in their own little affairs that there's no chance helping them anymore. Just open your eyes. Look around you. There happen enough crimes every day to realise some people just don't CARE what happens to their victims/hostages. I've had enough with this soft treatment of scum. Give them what they deserve. I think that the right course of action would be to let a criminal experience the same kind of treatment he gave to his victims. A rapist, for example, should be raped himself, just to experience how awful and disgusting his own crime was towards his victim(s). Maybe that will get the message across. Of course in this case his history should be taken into account. If this rapist became a rapist because he was abused himself in the past, this is of course not the right solution, as it will only worsen his situation. But if a rapist just rapes because of the 'kick' he gets out of it, or for the 'fun' he experiences, then I'd apply the same treatment to him. I know I might sound very cold and harsh here, but, as I pointed out earlier, some people just need a good stomping before finally getting them to realise their mistakes. :/

    Sily
  • bivbibivbi Member Posts: 96
    @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud i know, and i understand what you meen, but all murederers are not stone-hearted or silence and cold murderes. There are two quesstions : why do they act like they did? and Why do they do it again once they go out of jail?
    I can't respond to the why, but to the second question, i can tell you what i think. In jail you don't learn from your errors, whereas it have been created to do so. For exemple at school, when you started adding, you could have said 1+1=11, and then your teacher explains you "Not, it's 1+1=2, because..." and then you won't do a mistake like that. But in jail you have no teacher to tells you that was wrong and why. And the more important is why it is wrong, and it is difficult to explain and realise whithout help, because it not as simply as "it's wrong because it's wrong".

    Kitteh_On_A_Cloud
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    Not all of them can be changed, or redeemed, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. We should give everyone the same opportunity, try to save them, show them that we care, and if they don't take it, sucks to be them.

    bivbiKitteh_On_A_CloudMedullaOblongata
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    bivbi said:

    @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud i know, and i understand what you meen, but all murederers are not stone-hearted or silence and cold murderes. There are two quesstions : why do they act like they did? and Why do they do it again once they go out of jail?
    I can't respond to the why, but to the second question, i can tell you what i think. In jail you don't learn from your errors, whereas it have been created to do so. For exemple at school, when you started adding, you could have said 1+1=11, and then your teacher explains you "Not, it's 1+1=2, because..." and then you won't do a mistake like that. But in jail you have no teacher to tells you that was wrong and why. And the more important is why it is wrong, and it is difficult to explain and realise whithout help, because it not as simply as "it's wrong because it's wrong".

    Hmm, maybe you're right...I was just talking about those who couldn't be saved anymore, though. But indeed, if there's a chance of making criminals genuinely regret their actions, we must give them that chance and help them. But only if they're REALLY sorry.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2012
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • NaveenNaveen Member Posts: 81
    edited December 2012
    You are asking the wrong questions. It's not "Why?" but "Why not?" You are assuming a normal personality, and a cause that you could empathise or understand, but the fact you are asking the question implies you are not going to be able to answer it very well. If you almost don't feel anything for other people, you see them as insects, you don't have a purpose or something to do in your life... why not kill? His exact psychopathology doesn't really matter because it's a black swan thing, a one in a million situation. There are thousand of people with mental health problems or personality problems who have been bullied, humilliated or whatever, but they don't go around killing people. Any mental screenning will create a lot of false positives, although the usual suspects will still be schizophrenia, autism spectrum disorder (unlikely on its own, but with something else seems possible), extreme forms of narcissism and the random psychopath who thought it would be hillarious to kill people. But as I said, I think it's a one in a million thing, and as a psychologist I doubt I'll be able to design a method to detect those people without doing a lot of false positives.

    As many people have said, it's the media and it's drama and glorification of death. Understand that when one of those people is deciding if going postal they will obviously think about similar cases, he will read about how much pain it caused to other people (that's good, he hates people and hurting what you hate is good), how powerful they were (that's also cool), he will see the broken parents (that's fine too, he hates his own parents) and how meaningless all the deaths were (that's perfect too). All pros, no cons.

    And yes, I don't care about how you stand on the guns issue, but guns ( automatic guns) help if you want to commit mass murder... killing people with your toenails doesn't imply guns are not dangerous and therefore you can have as many of them as you want. Besides, the right to bear arms is from when you could only shoot 2 times per minute at a 50m accuracy with some shitty musket, I don't understant why nobody says technology has changed quite a bit.

    mch202Chowbivbi
  • BrightNightBrightNight Member Posts: 36
    moopy said:

    @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud

    If we had gun control laws and that would stop people from using guns...

    Couldn't we just make murder illegal? And that would stop people from murdering?

    It seems like an easier solution.

    Wait you mean he didn't care about the don't murder people law? Hrm, I really doubt he'd care about the don't have guns law and would get one illegally.

    Also, how about option 4) I want to own one for protection against crazy people who will get one legally or illegally anyway? 5) I want to own one because I enjoy target practice and its a hobby, or 6) I live in the middle of 640 acres and would like to be able to protect my family and livestock from wild animals.

    Case and point: Ridiculously strict gun laws in Chicago or Washington DC, and yet they have some of the worst gun crimes in America, because the law breakers break the law (duh) and get guns anyway, and are emboldened by the fact that they know their victims.

    I guess strict gun laws would have stopped this man in Bejing from hurting 22 kids at a elementary school?

    http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-man-slashes-22-children-near-china-school-20121214,0,6383015.story

    Oh... wait... he used a knife?

    Maybe we need to make knives illegal to own also?

    I see what you mean and in a way you are right. If you want to kill someone you simply can with whatever object you want. But it will always help to make it more difficult to get a things made for killing...like a gun.


    Ofcourse that would never happen since 'some people at the top' make tremendous amounts of money by dealing in guns...the same way we are not driving on water while the technology is there. Petrol makes money.

    To most Europeans a lot of laws and so called "rights" of the USA are really retarded and medieval.

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434
    I think there are a few misunderstandings regarding the "KILL THEM ALL!!1" option. First, I think that @H0RSE has made some very good points in his statements. They are emotionally unsavory, but then again, society perpetuating criminals is unsavory. I agree that more psycho-sociological research and action to change society needs to be done. It is an uphill battle, but it is a battle that needs to happen.

    Obviously, "KILL ALL CRIMINALS!!!1¡" does not work... Because there are still criminals, and more in the making.

    I would like to add the following:

    -Justifying or fantasizing about someone getting raped or tortured is kinda psychologically worrying to me...
    -I have read about the gun control issue, where in the USA violent crime is a big problem but in the UK it is not. I do not believe it is as simple as that... What is being left out are factors such as sociological and psychological differences between peoples of both countries. Therefore, I believe that it is society that determines the rate of violent crime, and not a presence of gun bans / gun control laws.
    -Criminals are human and they are a part of society. And, society CREATES them... They do not appear out of a vacuum.

    Now, I gtg... My phone is dying D:

    Chow
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    edited December 2012

    -Criminals are human and they are a part of society. And, society CREATES them... They do not appear out of a vacuum.

    There's our problem. These things are a product of our society, and for a whole variety of reasons, society never changes enough that there wouldn't be any.

    For instance, guns are cheap and easily available because gun lobbyists want money, and mental health care is expensive and rare because psychologists want to feel appreciated. And that has a snowball's chance in hell of ever changing.

    MedullaOblongata
  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    edited December 2012
    Chow said:

    -Criminals are human and they are a part of society. And, society CREATES them... They do not appear out of a vacuum.

    There's our problem. These things are a product of our society, and for a whole variety of reasons, society never changes enough that there wouldn't be any.
    Maybe its not all up to Society.. an interesting read:

    http://www.learning-mind.com/psychopaths-criminals-have-distinct-brain-structure/

    http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iop/news/records/2012/May/The-antisocial-brain.aspx

    The new research has shown that psychopaths who are characterized by a lack of empathy for other people have less gray matter in those parts of the brain that are important for understanding the feelings and intentions of others.


    Post edited by mch202 on
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,689
    mch202 said:

    Chow said:

    -Criminals are human and they are a part of society. And, society CREATES them... They do not appear out of a vacuum.

    There's our problem. These things are a product of our society, and for a whole variety of reasons, society never changes enough that there wouldn't be any.
    Maybe its not all up to Society.. an interesting read:

    http://www.learning-mind.com/psychopaths-criminals-have-distinct-brain-structure/

    http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iop/news/records/2012/May/The-antisocial-brain.aspx

    The new research has shown that psychopaths who are characterized by a lack of empathy for other people have less gray matter in those parts of the brain that are important for understanding the feelings and intentions of others.


    So you are advocating brain scans as a prereq for gun ownership then

  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192

    So you are advocating brain scans as a prereq for gun ownership then

    Perhaps not quite, but a thorough psychological study would not be asking too much.

    Also @mch202, the proper term these days is "sociopath".

  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455

    mch202 said:

    Chow said:

    -Criminals are human and they are a part of society. And, society CREATES them... They do not appear out of a vacuum.

    There's our problem. These things are a product of our society, and for a whole variety of reasons, society never changes enough that there wouldn't be any.
    Maybe its not all up to Society.. an interesting read:

    http://www.learning-mind.com/psychopaths-criminals-have-distinct-brain-structure/

    http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iop/news/records/2012/May/The-antisocial-brain.aspx
    The new research has shown that psychopaths who are characterized by a lack of empathy for other people have less gray matter in those parts of the brain that are important for understanding the feelings and intentions of others.

    So you are advocating brain scans as a prereq for gun ownership then

    I don't think that Citizens should own guns and assault rifles... at all.

    What I'm saying is that being a sociopath don't have to be a result of abusing environment or harsh childhood, but maybe there is a physical factor that should be taken into consideration.. as the research states

    @Chow

    I quoted the article..

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Chow said:

    So you are advocating brain scans as a prereq for gun ownership then

    Perhaps not quite, but a thorough psychological study would not be asking too much.

    Actually, that wouldn't be such a bad idea. If it could prevent mass murder of innocent kids? I'm all in for it.

    And yet...it's still a matter of mental maturity and sense of responsibility, though. And from what I have seen and read, I have this feeling that most people who buy guns aren't really aware of the risks of owning a gun. Because...owning a gun is cool. It confirms one's masculinity (no doubt there are such people out there, yes), it gives one a fake sense of power. It undoubtedly also got to do with coming over as being a macho, a real guy, who owns a gun 'cus he's, y'know, a guy and guys ought to be the ones handling guns as if they were cheap toys.

    I saw a documentary about guns in America once. Almost all of the people shown in that documentary clearly showed one of the signs I described above. Guns were bought and sold like vegetables and fruits, y'know, in a common light-hearted fashion. Couldn't believe my eyes how careless those people were when talking about it. I really couldn't.

  • MedullaOblongataMedullaOblongata Member Posts: 434



    And yet...it's still a matter of mental maturity and sense of responsibility, though. And from what I have seen and read, I have this feeling that most people who buy guns aren't really aware of the risks of owning a gun. Because...owning a gun is cool. It confirms one's masculinity (no doubt there are such people out there, yes), it gives one a fake sense of power. It undoubtedly also got to do with coming over as being a macho, a real guy, who owns a gun 'cus he's, y'know, a guy and guys ought to be the ones handling guns as if they were cheap toys.

    I have only met one gun owner that fits your description. Admittedly, I have only met gun owners in 20 states and been to several gun shows, 2nd amendment "rallies", and taken several self-defense courses and gun-handling and safety courses, so by no means do I speak for every American gun-owner ever, but I have only met one person that matches your description: the drunken firearm-swinging macho frat boy who "needed" the piece to enhance his masculinity, as if it were some kind of toy.

    Of all other gun-owners I met, they were calm and collected, peaceful and cheerful. I would say about half of them never had prior law enforcement or military experience.



    I saw a documentary about guns in America once. Almost all of the people shown in that documentary clearly showed one of the signs I described above. Guns were bought and sold like vegetables and fruits, y'know, in a common light-hearted fashion. Couldn't believe my eyes how careless those people were when talking about it. I really couldn't.

    I would like to know which documentary you had watched. If every single gun-owner on that documentary behaved like that, then they were either paid actors, hobbyists, and/or the documentary was intentionally designed to reflect poorly... Kind of like a bias.

    People like that DO exist here in America, but they hardly represent the rest of us. If you walked into the house of my father, you would never know about his shotgun... Until you broke in or tried to harm my family. That weapon never comes up in conversation, and my little sister does not know about it.

    If youbare going to watch skewed documentaries, then try looking at it from the other angles.

    I believe these weapons should never be treated as toys, not even in hobbies. Each owner should take regular safety training and clean their weapons regularly. Guns should be treated with caution and respect.

    There are many more in the USA that also share my opinions... Just my 2c.

    ElectricMonk
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    I still don't see why it's even 'neccessary' to have a gun or another weapon at home. It's only asking for trouble and it breeds paranoia. Ironically, I'd never feel safe with weapons at home. I'd feel much safer with a decent alarm installation, double-thick glass windows and good locks on my door.
    @MedullaOblongata: As for that documentary, I don't really remember...It was a long time ago. But I sure got the impression the people on that convention weren't all too bright. I don't even see how practicing shooting with a gun just to fill leisure time can be 'fun', but that's just my opinion, I guess.

    MedullaOblongata
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