Shandyr's Tomb: A place to meet with fellow Necromancers to discuss anything related to Undead.
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"Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes!" I've seen a lot of representations of skellies that had the classic, bleached, bare-boned look except for the eyes. Maybe that's the crossover point?
I remember that Icewind Dale had nice spooky glowing eyesockets on its skellie sprites.
How about it, everybody? What is the great divide between skellie and zombie?
If you're referring to what differentiates a zombie from a skeleton, I think it probably has to do with the nature of the spell that animates the creature. If the resultant undead still needs sinew and muscle fibers to hold itself together, it is a zombie. If the bones stay together purely through magic, it is a skeleton.
What exactly makes all these power-differentials among the undead? They're all just animated dead bodies, after all. @Mortianna, we could really use your expertise, here.
EDIT: Oh, and where exactly do the mummies fit into all this? Different means to an end, maybe? Having your dead body wrapped, imbalmed, and enchanted gives you a leg up on your average, run-of-the-mill zomboid or skellie? And the vamps got started by a necro god, and then choose for themselves whom to gift with the vamp Turning?
Lessee, yes, mummies, and spellcasting mummy priests make regular appearances in SoA. I don't think we have them in BG1, though. Both them and the vamps would mop the floor with 1-8 level characters.
On the discussion: Now, liches, I get. If you were an all-powerful mage who wanted to overcome mortality and live forever, of course you'd choose lich for your undead type. That's the only type that's stronger than a vamp.
Unless, of course, you're either a female, gay, or metrosexual undead wannabe who just can't abide the thought of looking like that, forever! Ewwww. For those of us who want to be sexy, powerful, immortal, and undead, vampire form is a no-brainer.
'All that remains of the cadaver at this stage is dry skin, cartilage, and bones,[3] which will become dry and bleached if exposed to the elements.[6] If all soft tissue is removed from the cadaver, it is referred to as completely skeletonized, but if only portions of the bones are exposed, it is referred to as partially skeletonised.'
So I guess a completely skeletonised corpse can not be brought back as a zombie, obviously, it becomes a skeleton when animate dead is cast.
Heh, combining real-world knowledge with fantasy spell-casting..cos even spells had to make some sort of sense within themselves. Or you can just say 'hey, it's magic!'
On that note, according to PnP, very freshly dead corpses could be brought back by a high level caster as 'juju zombies' which are an elite type of zombie. They still look quite dead, ie:marble skin, all those veins, glassy eyes, etc. but they are not putrid and rotten much. They even had some of the basic knowledge and skill of their former lives, depending on how long their brains stayed 'truly dead', though they were still brainless servants to the caster. An alternate way of creating juju zombies was killing a living victim with the notorious Finger of Death spell. Victims strucked down with Finger of Death went through some changes and could be brought back as juju zombies with a ceremony.
When there's no muscle tissue left to do the job, it's a skeleton.
If it's in-between, or has different parts at different stages of decomposition, it tends to go with zombie unless there's a comparatively tiny amount of flesh remaining, for example, a single limb.
In all cases, turn undead.
Ha, this is almost making me want to play an old Homm2 map as a necromancer, just because!
Also, maybe we could just make this thread a home for discussing undead, although it might need to be eventually moved to Off-Topic, if enough people start having fun having a nerd-discussion about this stuff.
Trvia: There are three types of undead in D&D based on their level of intelligence. Mindless, Soulless (IIRC, don't have Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead with me), and Intelligent. Mindless undead are skeletons and zombies that are for all intents and purposes, automatons. They cannot think for themselves, and can only follow basic commands from their controller. When said controller is gone, they default to their basic programmed behavior. Soulless undead are wraiths, spectres, shadows, ghosts, ghouls, ghasts, etc. who have some of their mortal intelligence but are now mostly driven by their undead instincts due to their lack of a soul. Basically, they can think for themselves to some degree, but when a warm and delicious human comes their way, they can't help but on nom nom on the poor sap. And finally, intelligent undead such as vampires and liches and mummies retain all of their mortal intelligence as well as their soul. While vampires still thirst for blood, they can go about feeding themselves without leaving a trail of corpses in their wake like the abovementioned soulless undead.
If you're a World of Darkness player, Soulless undead are basically Morality 0 undead, while intelligent undead can be anywhere from Morality 1 to 7 (normal human) to even higher.
From 'A Guide to Undead':
''Can a skeleton pick out the one green bottle from four in a row? No.
Could it be commanded to pick up a mace instead of a sword? Yes.
Could it thread a needle? No, due to inability to see the hole in the needle as well as the complexity of the task as a whole.
Could it wait till Sir Gilbert enters the room and only attack him? I'd say no, too complex, even if this skeleton 'knew' Sir Gilbert in life. Detection of life force tells can not pick out a spesific individual by name or description.''
You say nerdy discussion about undead? Ooh, I am all in! Where was my 'Complete Necromancers Guide'?
I think I could fall in love with a person who would do that. (Just kidding - but internet hugs, nevertheless. You are awesome.)
As for what they become when raised... well, I'd say that depends on the method of animation, and the wishes of the caster. I imagine if he wants to, he can always make a corpse into a skeleton (and if nothing else, he can just flay the corpse...), but he cannot make just skeletal remains into a zombie.
I know that skellies have very high resistance to all damage, but very low hit points and so-so armor class. But they also have much faster movement rate than zomboids, and zomboids move like undead snails.
So, do zomboids have higher hit points, higher AC, and higher Thac0 as a counterbalance?
I know that in the Homm2 necromancer army, that skellies were first tier but awesome, since the necromancer could use his/her skills to raise enormous numbers of them, while the zomboids were second tier, but took resources to make, and were widely considered a useless troop that the necromancer just had to learn how to make and get over, in order to get the stronger third tier mummies. The skellies of the necromancer army were considered to be the best first tier troop in the game.
If that trope holds in BG as well as it does in other games and fictional outlets, then skellies rock, and zomboids are just an unfortunate accident of learning necromancy - they are the byproducts of amateurish, student efforts at "the art."
I don't recall any spell that, umm, fleshes out a skeleton so it can be animated as a zombie. Either it is not very practical or necromancers have no trouble finding fresh or only partially decomposed bodies to work with.
@belgarathmth: Skeletons move faster and take less damage from piercing and slashing weapons. Zombies move slower but are stronger and tougher (because they still have muscles) and take less damage from bludgeoning weapons.
I would rule that such an item would have no effect on a skeleton, or any other undead for that matter. In the game engine it would probably work as intended but that would be ridiculous.
Why would a necromancer work hard to make a skeleton a fleshy corpse so he can animate it as a zombie? He can just procure a fresh corpse. Only if the skeleton belongs to an unique individual that you really want to animate as a zombie, it makes little sense. Umm, IIRC in Complete Necromancers, there was a necromancer queen named Kezarabeth who employed juju zombies dressed in towels as her private masseurs in her boudouir. She went great lengths to make them look like as fresh and alive as possible, like using only the freshest, most handsome corpses. But don't they have rather..cold hands? Maybe she liked it that way. Icky much? :-D