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Shandyr's Tomb: A place to meet with fellow Necromancers to discuss anything related to Undead.

245

Comments

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited December 2012
    lunar said:


    Why would a necromancer work hard to make a skeleton a fleshy corpse so he can animate it as a zombie? He can just procure a fresh corpse.

    I thought skeletons were mage/cleric constructs - animate dead aka bones brought to life by magic, whereas zombies are a result of some disease. I think once the brain matter of zombies completely decay, they don't become sentient skeletons but rather crumble to dust.

    So is there no contradiction?

    What if a mage chose to animate a skeleton which is half rotten corpse yet?

    Would that "thing" then be a zombie or a skeleton?

    So I think we must distinguish between different types of zombies here!

  • lDanielHolmlDanielHolm Member Posts: 225
    Zombies are moved and held together by their flesh and muscles. If there aren't enough muscles remaining for it to qualify for zombie-hood, it becomes a skeleton, and I imagine the remaining tissue would just rot off (as the magic isn't preserving it, instead focused on keeping the skeleton together).

    Shandyrlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited December 2012

    Zombies are moved and held together by their flesh and muscles. If there aren't enough muscles remaining for it to qualify for zombie-hood, it becomes a skeleton, and I imagine the remaining tissue would just rot off (as the magic isn't preserving it, instead focused on keeping the skeleton together).

    Ah now we have reached the crucial point!

    So we are speaking of corpses which have been raised as skeleteons by necromancers.

    Which means they are some kind of zombie-skeleton-hybrid.

    The magic preserves the bones only.

    The "thing" will finally turn into a skeleton. Before that it's actually... well... a kind of a zombie (But it seems other kind of zombies exist as well).


    And you make a very good point @lDanielHolm!
    Why would a mage wait anyway until he found a right skeleton?

    He would just animate any corpse. And then everything would happen what you said in your post.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,390
    edited December 2012
    In game terms, there is zombie:mindless, crude, slow, decayed. Then there is ju-ju zombie:still mindless in that it can not make choices on its own, but has some of the skills he had in life. There is zombie lord but it is considered a living creature (a raise dead spell gone awry)

    A half way rotten corpse will become a particularly horrific and disgusting zombie, IMHO. Imagine the most rotten and ugly zombie you ever saw in movies or games. Worms wriggling in its eye sockets and mouth, bloated belly that is heavily marbled with greenish veins, skin basically in-patches, bursting with pus and putrid gases, which release a horrible odor and it drops worms, bugs and pus everywhere as it lurches ever forward. Colorful stuff like that. There are no official rules for the condition of the corpse to be zombified, in game terms it will still be a 'zombie'. A particularly sadistic dungeon master may want the player characters roll fear and horror checks when they see such a horrible zombie, but it is still a zombie.

    You can design house rules on that, like what percent zombie or skeleton a corpse is, but that would be detailed and rather time-consuming.

    lDanielHolmlolien
  • lDanielHolmlDanielHolm Member Posts: 225
    The muscles wouldn't really do anything for the skeleton, though. I suppose it is possible to create a zombie-skeleton hybrid, where the skeletal parts are kept together by the magic, and the muscles are reanimated... but that seems altogether too complicated for a simple minion that is struck down in a single blow anyway.

    I imagine a necromancer can choose whether he wants a corpse that qualifies for a zombie to be a zombie or a skeleton. In the latter case, the tissue could hinder the motions of the skeleton, though, so it's probably better to just turn it into a zombie.

    lunar
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    But then he must take care that the magic also preserves the zombie's flesh, must he not?

    Or it will eventually turn into a skeleton!

  • lDanielHolmlDanielHolm Member Posts: 225
    That's part of what makes it a zombie, though--preserving the tissue and making it animate the corpse. If it didn't preserve it, the zombie would eventually collapse, not turn into a skeleton (and it would grow progressively weaker as tissue decayed), unless the magic was specifically designed for that (so that as tissue decays, the magic animating the muscles instead start animating the bones), but again... that's really complicated for a simple undead minion. Simpler to simply preserve and animate the muscles and leave it at that.

  • faceless1963faceless1963 Member Posts: 143
    edited December 2012
    a zombie does not have to be necessaraly dead. per definition it could be a person which soul and his free will is stolen.

    lolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Uhm... does that mean mainchar in BG2 is temporarily a zombie? And Imoen?

    lolien
  • faceless1963faceless1963 Member Posts: 143
    let#s start get philosophical :) the word zombie came out of the voodoo-religion from africa. they made it into the movies 1932 with bela lugosi in white zombie. the human-flesh-and-brain-eating dumb monsters were created by the great george a. romero with the night of the living dead.

    i guess our hero and imoen do not have something in common with these guys :)

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • Aron_TimesAron_Times Member Posts: 18
    This is how Animate Dead works in D&D 3.5. Basically, when you animate a corpse with flesh on it, you can choose for it to become a zombie or a skeleton. In the latter case, the flesh sloughs off and you're left with bare bones.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

    Shandyrlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited December 2012
    Mortianna said:



    Oh, the finer points of D&D necrology! Anyone have one of Van Richten's lorebooks handy?

    I'd say zombies are basically skeletons with extra baggage (meat baggage, that is), but the distinction between a zombie and a skeleton is tricky. Like you mentioned, some skeletons probably have scraps of flesh still clinging to their bones and maybe have an eye or tongue that hasn't yet decayed. Similarly, some zombies that are in an advanced stage of decomposition may have bones showing in some parts. Ultimately, I think it should be based on smell: skeletons are generally done rotting, while zombies aren't.

    I don't think zombies need any of their organs to function since they are animated by (and embued with) negative energy. But, since zombies are still undergoing the processes of decay, there are many more possible hindrances to their movement rate: rigor mortis, broken or twisted leg/back/neck, skin sloughing off, impaled with a spear in a previous battle, etc. Skeletons' bones are held together by the magic that animated them, so they're much lighter and more mobile than zombies (although a fresh zombie animated from a newly-deceased "donor" could conceivably be just as fast as a skeleton, especially if they've had an "Embalm" spell cast upon them).

    A couple of things would definitely make zombies more formidable, imo: (1) Requiring low-level characters to make a fear check (i.e., save vs. death) whenever they encounter one, especially if it's especially ripe and is buzzing with flies and crawling with maggots (I'm sure a talented graphic designer could whip up an animation of this with ease). (2) Require a save vs. death (or else contract a disease) whenever one is hit by a zombie. The decaying dead, despite their unforgettable stench, would most likely carry some sort of parasite or infectious disease that could be passed onto to the living. Maybe it's a good thing player characters can't animate them in BG:EE :)

    Taken from http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/205578/#Comment_205578

    Reading this while having breakfast! Yummy.

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited December 2012
    When they lose over 60% of their flesh. Zombies are more resistant to crushing damage then skeletons due to their flesh giving their remains some protection and need to be hacked apart, rather then smashed (though smashing the head never hurts). But yes, the rotted flesh also makes it harder for them to move.

    Zombies are pretty low on the totem pole. I actually don't know of a particular situation where anyone would make zombies over skeletons, unless they were just wanting some variety in their rotting mass of Doom.

    And from the looks of it, zombie's require more effort to create and control then skeletons. A caster can control 2 skeletons per level, but only 1 zombie per level.

    lolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Okay thread is now open for anything related to Undead.

    So the first 27 seconds of this video are for you, @belgarathmth
    (And I just noted that the lichs make an interesting sound as well xD )



    SilyBelgarathMTHMortiannalolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    edited December 2012
    @Shandyr, love it!

    Here's some more mood music for the thread. When the contrabassoon comes in at :25, it just makes you want to start going "mwahhahahaha" and rub your palms together in anticipation of all the skellies, zombies, mummies, vampires, liches, and bone dragons (I like to call them "boners") about to come marching out of there!



    EDIT: Also, talk about Jungian synchronicity! This comic strip appeared in this morning's paper:

    image

    ShandyrMortiannaCrevsDaak
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    edited December 2012
    Sorry if this winds up being a double post, but, in another amazing example of synchronicity, I just read this from OOTS:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

    EDIT: When I image source it, it's too small to read, because it's somewhat long, so I'll have to direct link it. Believe me, it's worth the time it takes to read.

    EDIT #2: If it's too long for you, the pertinent bit is five rows up from the bottom. ;)

    Mortiannalolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Too small too read :O

    Please give link to bigger version^^

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    Nononono @belgarathmth

    That is just wrong xD

    I refuse to believe that Undead are just tools :(

    They have feelings too you know :P

    See, when a zombie tries to eat you it's just its way to express its affection for you.
    It doesn't know better.

    BelgarathMTHMortiannalolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    @Shandyr, ROFLMAO. Hey, if you want to be a powerful necromancer, watch out for the dark priest who is even more powerful than you!

    lolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    He I will keep that in mind :)

    But the comic speaks of something I wanted to discuss anyway: Phylactery

    As we can assume that I'm going to become a powerful necromancer one day, there'll be the day
    I turn into a lich.

    So where to hide my Phylactery then? What's the best location to hide it for a lich?

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    @Shandyr, well, Xykon trusts his dark priest hobgoblin chief to carry it in a locket. Which, as you saw from the linked comic, was a huge mistake on his part. The phylactery got lost in the sewers when a captured pally grabbed it and threw it, and Xykon took his priest's right eye out in punishment. (Or, at least, won't let him regenerate it.)

    Here's what Xykon did when he got it back, and I recommend that you do the same. See three rows up from the bottom. I don't think there's any conceivable better thing to do, and Xykon should have done it in the first place:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

    But, gods, man, if you insist on doing this undead thing, wouldn't you rather be a vamp? So you could stay sexy, and have Superman running, speed, strength, and jumping or flying (if you survived long enough). I know that there's all that annoying avoiding the sun (unless you get the coveted Stephanie Meyers diamond-skin treatment), and having to constantly jockey for power among the other vamps, which are admittedly much more common and less powerful than the pinnacle of humanoid undead, the lich. But still.

    If I were forced to become undead, I'd take the sexy vampire route over the hideous lich route.

    Mortianna
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited December 2012
    Hmm sexyness versus being one of the most powerful undead beings...

    That's quite a question to think about :/

    Ahh, such are the philosophical questions every necromancer has to face at a certain point I guess...


    Okay: Just in case I choose to be lich... I'm off the next few weeks. I uhh have to do something.
    Astral Plane I'm coming!

    Note: I'm flattered that you care for my sexyness, belgar ;)

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    @Shandyr, ROFLMAO. Oh, I care. I'm not like that necromancer girl who actually found XYKON sexy! Ewww.

    Shandyr
  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
    edited December 2012
    The official AMA guidelines which are adhered to by all accredited priestly and clerical organizations state that "Once the the percentage of soft or putrid organic matter drops below 7.59% of biomass the diagnosis of skeleton can be made."

    Post edited by Shandyr on
    Shandyrlolien
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    ^This post should be in @Shandyr's "Shandyr's Tomb" thread in off-topic.

    Shandyr
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited December 2012

    ^This post should be in @Shandyr's "Shandyr's Tomb" thread in off-topic.

    LOL I thought the same reading this xD

    Great know we have another criteria of how to distinguish between zombie and skeleton

    I will quote OP in my thread

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited December 2012
    Edwin said:

    The official AMA guidelines which are adhered to by all accredited priestly and clerical organizations state that "Once the the percentage of soft or putrid organic matter drops below 7.59% of biomass the diagnosis of skeleton can be made."

    Taken from: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12691/the-official-ama-guidines/p1

    HA! Another way to tell the difference between zombie and skeleton.

    The first one was revealed by @Mortianna: smell - zombies smell, skeletons don't

    BelgarathMTHlolien
  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
    edited December 2012
    @Shandyr Sorry, I thought that I had posted it there...oops.

    Shandyrlolien
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    @Edwin

    Ah so you wanted to post it in my thread instead of making a new thread?

    I could merge them if you want to :)

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