Attention: Alora is now amazing.
Quartz
Member Posts: 3,853
For those of you with the (entirely legitimate) complaint of "I never pick up Alora. The game has a million thieves, she's super late-game, and she dumps a bunch of points into Pick Pockets." it appears that Overhaul has ... well, overhauled her quite significantly. She is now the best pure thief in terms of thieving abilities. Her Lucky Rabbit's Foot has been very, very largely buffed. Read on.
I'll start with the negative first.
* Found in the Hall of Wonders at night. Chapter 5 addition? Ugh! Situational and late.
* Drops half of her points into Pick Pocketing. If this is your forte, then okay this is a positive. Otherwise, gahhh!
* Drops a pip into Two Weapon Style. WUT??
* Of course, her stats are still laughable. 8 Strength, 19 Dexterity, 12 Constitution, 14 Intelligence, 7 Wisdom, 10 Charisma. So, only a bonus for 19 Dex, and her Halfling Saving Throws are at +3 due to 12 Con, that's literally all.
* Bad, bad HP rolls. Level 4 iteration: 14 HP. Level 6 iteration: 19 HP.
And now the positive:
* Halfling thief = +5% Open Locks, +5% Find Traps, +5% Pickpocket, +10% Move Silently, +15% Hide in Shadows. Fun fact: Halflings get the most bonus thieving abilities out of any race, +40%.
* 19 Dexterity = +20% Open Locks, +10% Find Traps, +15% Pickpocket, +15% Move Silently, +15% Hide in Shadows, +10% Set Traps.
* 19 Dexterity also means +3 to her ranged THAC0. She's pretty nasty with a Short Bow.
* +3 to Save vs. Death, Wand, and Spells according to Halfling constitution of 12.
* Her Lucky Rabbit's Foot? It has been buffed like crazy. This is now the item you wish your PC thief could have, just like you wish your PC mage could have Edwin's amulet. Before, it was a Luck bonus (and glitched, for that matter). Now, it is Luck bonus x2, an AC bonus of -2 (you heard me!) that doesn't even count as a "magical item", gives her a further -2 to all her Saving Throws, and gives her +10% to all of her Thieving Abilities. So basically, it makes her stupidly evasive (Shadow Armor + Rabbit Foot = -2 AC, amazing for a pure thief in BG1), makes her saving throws even more absurdly low, and makes all her thieving scores a good 10% better. Oh man!
Misc. information:
If you pick her up and she's level 4, her thieving abilities split half and half into Open Locks and Pick Pockets. If she is level 6, still a boatload into Open Locks and Pick Pockets but begins putting points into Find Traps as well.
Her proficiencies are Dagger, Short Bow, and Two Weapon Style. Ideal equipment for her is Dagger of Venom and Eagle Bow, then. I have had fun with that. When she hit level 8 I gave her a pip in One Weapon Style for obvious reasons. AC bonus and crit on 19 is very nice.
PS: I'm not biased. I thought she was pretty mediocre in BG1. I am very happy to say that in BG:EE she is definitely worth picking up.
-----
I really want to give props to Overhaul on this one. Alora was in a bad spot in this game, and they made the effort to make picking her up not completely insane. Yes, she's still a late game NPC, and yes, she's yet another thief. But now she has things going for her, things that make her very powerful, like any late game NPC should have. Props.
I'll start with the negative first.
* Found in the Hall of Wonders at night. Chapter 5 addition? Ugh! Situational and late.
* Drops half of her points into Pick Pocketing. If this is your forte, then okay this is a positive. Otherwise, gahhh!
* Drops a pip into Two Weapon Style. WUT??
* Of course, her stats are still laughable. 8 Strength, 19 Dexterity, 12 Constitution, 14 Intelligence, 7 Wisdom, 10 Charisma. So, only a bonus for 19 Dex, and her Halfling Saving Throws are at +3 due to 12 Con, that's literally all.
* Bad, bad HP rolls. Level 4 iteration: 14 HP. Level 6 iteration: 19 HP.
And now the positive:
* Halfling thief = +5% Open Locks, +5% Find Traps, +5% Pickpocket, +10% Move Silently, +15% Hide in Shadows. Fun fact: Halflings get the most bonus thieving abilities out of any race, +40%.
* 19 Dexterity = +20% Open Locks, +10% Find Traps, +15% Pickpocket, +15% Move Silently, +15% Hide in Shadows, +10% Set Traps.
* 19 Dexterity also means +3 to her ranged THAC0. She's pretty nasty with a Short Bow.
* +3 to Save vs. Death, Wand, and Spells according to Halfling constitution of 12.
* Her Lucky Rabbit's Foot? It has been buffed like crazy. This is now the item you wish your PC thief could have, just like you wish your PC mage could have Edwin's amulet. Before, it was a Luck bonus (and glitched, for that matter). Now, it is Luck bonus x2, an AC bonus of -2 (you heard me!) that doesn't even count as a "magical item", gives her a further -2 to all her Saving Throws, and gives her +10% to all of her Thieving Abilities. So basically, it makes her stupidly evasive (Shadow Armor + Rabbit Foot = -2 AC, amazing for a pure thief in BG1), makes her saving throws even more absurdly low, and makes all her thieving scores a good 10% better. Oh man!
Misc. information:
If you pick her up and she's level 4, her thieving abilities split half and half into Open Locks and Pick Pockets. If she is level 6, still a boatload into Open Locks and Pick Pockets but begins putting points into Find Traps as well.
Her proficiencies are Dagger, Short Bow, and Two Weapon Style. Ideal equipment for her is Dagger of Venom and Eagle Bow, then. I have had fun with that. When she hit level 8 I gave her a pip in One Weapon Style for obvious reasons. AC bonus and crit on 19 is very nice.
PS: I'm not biased. I thought she was pretty mediocre in BG1. I am very happy to say that in BG:EE she is definitely worth picking up.
-----
I really want to give props to Overhaul on this one. Alora was in a bad spot in this game, and they made the effort to make picking her up not completely insane. Yes, she's still a late game NPC, and yes, she's yet another thief. But now she has things going for her, things that make her very powerful, like any late game NPC should have. Props.
Post edited by Quartz on
46
Comments
Gold in BG:EE is in serious mass abundance so you end up with lots of Potions of Master Thievery, Perception and a few potions of Power, all boosting various thief skills. Pure Thieves just aren't that necessary in BG:EE in my opinion... ... especially when you are later into the game. I did Durlags tower with Coran who had a base Find Traps of like 45 or something like that.
Good post, but I am still not convinced with Alora. I want to pick up Quayle next time through only because his Leslie Neilsen reference made me cry with happiness a few days ago. Also if you ever played BGTutu you would know that the NPC's all had their proficiency's boggled around, and sometimes were spent in proficiency's they couldn't ever utilize effectively.
And yes, I really wish they could have the option to get all the NPCs fairly early.
Meet Eldoth in Naskel and go with him to Beregost to catch up to Skie who came looking for her brother before she returns to Baldur's Gate. If you wait too long, he leaves and you meet up with him at the his original spot later, and try again.
That's the only one I could think of off the top of my head...not sure how to squeeze Tiax, Qualye, Alora or Coran in...I don't really use them that often.
I always thought Quayle's initial dialog sounded more like he is standing in the middle of the Lion's Way map between Beregost and the Friendly Arm Inn anyway. So confusing. "Walking alone on the Coast Way road! How smart is this?"
@The_Cheeseman I like Alora's personality alright too, but even if you enjoy the personality of a character, it can sometimes feel like a real chore to carry around an NPC who is exceedingly inconvenient. To this day I have never truly managed to enjoy having Tiax in my party, even though I find him amusing and I really want to make a Cleric/Thief work, but it's tough... I did decent with him once but he still felt awfully overshadowed by Montaron (big surprise), so I needed to not have Monty in my group.
So what I'm saying is, a likable personality is by far the most important for an NPC. But hopefully they have practical use, as well. Kind of like me with Xzar. I adore his personality, a lot of people say "screw Xzar get Edwin." Xzar can dual-class to Thief or Cleric, so he has his vice and is not truly overshadowed by Edwin.
Meanwhile a character like Safana or Skie is entirely overshadowed by Imoen apart from carry weight. Pretty much depressing. I hate Imoen's existence because everyone just takes her instead of branching out and attempting to experiment.
As far as bards go, Eldoth is alright but he REQUIRES the Gauntlets of Dexterity.
Minimum 16 Dexterity? Odd, My Gnome Fighter/Illusionist that I made was allowed to have a Dexterity of 3... also, although it would make the game a bit more difficult in the early game, for those wanting those Baldur's Gate NPCs (as in the ones who chill in the city) you can just do only main quest for a while, so that you get your preferred party at a lower level. Then, with the party of City-folk, you can go back and side quest ,side quest, side quest with a really awesome thief. I am sure you could do some of the trap/lock parts of Durlag's tower with a low level Alora purely because she has so many bonuses to thieving skills.
Also, how do the poison arrows on Eldoth work? Does it create items or does it just poison your arrows like the Blackguard ability?
* Awfull personality, she's such a nerd.
I always kill her when I run into her :-)
Well, the 16 Dex on a Fighter/Illusionist hasn't been fixed for me. About three minutes ago, I tested out one to see if I was correct or not.
If we look here, it says that the minimum is in fact 3, when it should be 16.
Hey look, a Gnome Illusionist with 3 dex and 2 wisdom!
Eldoth's arrows are permanent? Need to get him fast!
Also, glad to see some Khalid Usage. He rocks! And no bitchy Jaheira...
Only thing with Eldoth's arrows is only he can use them. But I support that decision.
Yeah, Khalid is pretty awesome. He's a passable fighter until you get the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then he's totally badass. I also gave him the Dexterity tome this time around. 16 -> 17 Dexterity is a very big bonus so it was worth it to me. (Armor Class *and* Ranged Attack THAC0)
Based on the facts - is it worthy to use a thief unit with 19 dex and a rabbit foot (personal item, like Rasaad's boots) with low HP, poor BSing, with no profs in slings (race bonus), only availible in the end of the game?
Objectively not.
Even if she was Angelina Jolie or Megan Fox or whatever - she is useless in the game :-)
Comparing thief units?
Don't like Imoen? Ok let's skip her.
Human haters? Ok. Skip them.
Coran is a way better thief and superb ranged fighter. 21 dex with tome +1 natural AC.
Montaron is a way better thief (early in game) and ranged unit with slings and a halfling too (more racial bonuses). Can go in single weap style prof for melee.
Both can wear heavy armor for battles. An advantage? Yes!
Both can wear helmets (not just critical hits protection). An advantage? Yes!
Both have weap profs in their racial weapons. Advantage? Yes!
Both can carry more.
Both have more HP.
Even Shar-Teel is a better thief unit if dualled.
Why use Alora? Only because of her personal item?
It's like to use Rasaad only because of his personal boots.
Nobody uses Alora because of her 2 advantages, only for fun and RP. Or if you want to form a party of thieves.
Same for Garrick, Tiax, Quyale.
And that's the fact.
I know, that Alora technicaly is a better thief than Imoen or Safana, even Skie is a better one, but just on the paper (stats).
No matter what are the advantages, the only first point makes them all useless in this game.
If you quick-run the game just to hang on with a midget woman - it's not OK, and not even RP :-)
So let me analyze a roleplaying party :
PC Jester alternative support
Imoen support mage
Ajantis main damager
Xan main mage
Branwen > Yeslick main healer/tank
Alora main thief
It's a nicely balanced roleplaying party, for the most part being good. Xan and Alora are a nice contrast, it adds to the flavour, that's why I went with Ajantis/Xan instead of Minsc/Dynaheir. And it works magnificently overall, I am sure of that.
I am sure that somebody, rather than the nobody that you suggest, uses Alora because of her 2 advantages. Also, I don't think that Alora will be used ONLY for her rabbit's foot, as many people used her in BG1. This upgrade just makes her more viable than she used to be. She is a decent thief, this makes her a bit better, and she is available at a relatively low level if you are willing to work for it. As for Rasaad, I would use him even without his boots, he is pretty awesome in combat (Twinkle or Icingdeath and a point in single weapon style and he can take out archers and mages quite quickly).
I disagree that Montaron is a better thief. He is certainly better in melee combat, has potential to be better at ranged combat (dex gloves or marksman gloves) and he is decent early game. But if you rush to get Alora at a low enough level, her amazing thief levels serve better than Montaron. I do agree that Alora can't carry as much, but for my money considering her awesome Dex I will give her the marksman gloves and give her a bow or a sling, and her inventory will be filled with ammunition (and maybe she can carry all of the near weightless plot items like scrolls and stuff). If she needs to be able to carry more while traveling, a simple strength spell before venturing forth can solve that issue.
As for the heavy armor in combat, I almost always forget to switch a fighter thief off of their leather to plate for fights, and when I do remember I can't because combat has already started. I don't see it as a huge benefit for the fighter/thief, because sometimes he/she actually has to detrap during combat (Durlag's and Cloakwood Mine are great examples of combat near traps).
I'll give you the point for helmets, tis a shame that thieves can be critical hit and swatted like flies (but generally mine are in the back with ranged weapons anyways).
I don't use Garrick only for roleplay purposes. He is actually a valuable member of my team: he provides evocation spells that Xan can not cast, he is moderate with a crossbow so I have another ranged combatant, and (eventually) he can use his lore to identify items so i don't have to waste 1st level spells on him. For a game where you want reputation 20 and want one of the unique classes that BG1 NPCs don't have (in my case, Barbarian), then Garrick is a great fit to a party.
I don't care for Tiax or Quayle, but I am sure that somebody has a use for a Cleric/Illusionist (*cough* Quartz *cough*), and I know that Cleric/Thief has potential (if Tiax is given some items I am sure he isn't terrible).
I am sure Coran is fantastic, though I rarely try him because I am afraid that he will steal my woman! But seriously, yes he is a fantastic archer with a cheater point in that third bow spot.
Also, I disagree with your last point. Regardless of her height, she could be worth it to your team (it's totally OK to me). As for rushing to get to her, the main quest is kind of a driving force through the story, and it isn't that far off base to suggest that CHARNAMe actually does the main quest things all at once because he is really curious about why all of these assassins are coming after him, etc. It is totally roleplaying to do the main quest first, you just have to assume that your primary goal is to figure out what the
f***heck is going on with all of these assassins and these weird dreams.I think I addressed everything...yep....time to sleep now...
Let me say this straight: I also prefer fighter/thieves. They're awesome, and they really don't have much of a drawback in the slightest. But once in a while, I enjoy playing a pure thief ... holy crap, right? How dare I experiment! How dare I want to branch out and do other things!
In short, I don't mind some lively debate of "hey, I think this tactic is better" and whatnot, but your post contained such a condescending tone of "pure thieves are garbage" that it's completely inappropriate and rude. Thanks.
Safana could possible charm your PC?
But I agree with you in that case overall. Yes. Thats his downside.
But IMO we don't need thief skills over 90 or 100?
Am i possible wrong here?
It's not what you thought :-) But you're wrong!
Like you said, it's not about personalities or tactics.
It's all about stat facts, not about my "opinion".
If you don't like the FACTS about these NPCs, then... You know...
Why should I rush to get Alora?
And what about gamers, who are playing BG for the first time? Should they quick-run the whole game for Alora? Yes. He's pretty nice at high levels.
But my suggestion was only have him because of his personal item (that what Edwins fans always saying more spells bla bla bla).
And you're not right here too. Rasaad has no alternatives or someone to compare with, like Alora has 5 or 6. He's the only monk IG. You forget, me not.
In wilderness areas they wear heavy armors. In dungeons of course light. Not a good example. Yes I know. + low HP - is a one-shot unit. Unless you play on easy.
But my suggestion was that helmets are not just against criticals. Many helmets has AC bonuses or some resists and so.
I use ranged fighters in the back too. But if you are in a small area or in a dungeon where you can be surrounded by enemies or some kobolds or hoblins fireing in the back? Possible situation?
Ohh. With poison arrows or magic arrows - Alora - one-shot. Done :-) Everybody has potential with good equipment. If we are talking about RP - I think "racism" (or what is it called for halflings?) is a natural thing in Faerun, like in real world. Or not racism, I don't know how to say. Some like cats and hate dogs...
Some hate elfs, some halflings and so on.
It could be possible, that CHARNAME hates halflings, or elves, or even women :-)))
I see your point.
But mine was, that in overall Alora is not AMAIZING. (It's like "Skie is amazing! She has rich parents") :-)))
With all circumstances I'd gave her a "C" grade. BUT only for her DEX and her RING :-)
Sorry for that, but if she had 18 DEX and no RING - what was she? That was my point here.
There are realy better vanilla thieves out there or multi\dual.
I'm not talking about her personality or her look. I know some people realy like her ONLY for that, like some like Safana or Cernd or whatever.