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Having problems killing an enemy? Check this thread for help first (Spoiler Warning)

DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
Due to all the problems surrounding how to kill Loup Garou and what weapons actually hit him, I'm starting this thread with the hope that anytime someone is stuck killing an enemy they can come to this thread for help.

So with that, away we go:

How to kill Greater Wolfweres:

Known Bugs:
First of all there is currently a bug where he gains stacking regen anytime you rest or reload in the ship. Therefore be prepared to do the ENTIRE ship at one time right now. Save outside and don't save again until after he is dead. Otherwise his regen will get to the point where you will have to burst him down in a round or you will be unable to kill him.

Second of all, currently he is only harmed by weapons with the "cold iron" property which is not shown in game.

Weapon List:
[Spoiler]Dagger of Balduran
Sword of Baldurran
Bastard Sword +1, +3 versus Shapeshifters
Flame of the North +1 (Longsword)
Albruin +1 (Bastard Sword, thanks to Nukenin for pointing this out[/Spoiler]

As more enemies come up that people have problems with this list will be updated. If need be strats will be included for these bosses where appropriate and weapon lists where appropriate.

Post edited by Dragonspear on
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Comments

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @Tanthalas
    @SandmanCCL
    @Aosaw

    I know I'm missing one weapon in the list, also I was wondering if this might be something we want to keep on the front page for players to find that way we don't have numerous threads about it all the time.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    Well I often see those threads pop up in this forum as well Shandyr. Part of the problem is the "Cold Steel". Still I'd be fine if it was in both and I'd update it in both.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited December 2012
    Unless you are talking about what Kaishas turns into (and not Karoug), you should probably put Greater Wolfwere (or Karoug I suppose). Kaishas turns into the Loup Garou (which in the game is a type of werewolf).
  • NukeninNukenin Member Posts: 327
    You may be thinking of
    the bastard sword Albruin +1 (introduced as a drop in BG:EE) which is magical and silver (making it able to hit the Greater Wolfwere), but it does not have the cold iron property and thus cannot hit the Loup Garou. The weapons you list are magical and have both the cold iron property needed to hit the Loup Garou and the silver property needed to hit the Greater Wolfwere.

    The Loup Garou doesn't have the regeneration or elemental damage reduction of the Greater Wolfwere, so it's generally going to be an easier fight. The Loup Garou does have 45% magic resistance, however. The Greater Wolfwere just has good saves in addition to the elemental damage reduction, but has no magic resistance.


    This was a bunch of prepositions interspersed with spoiler tags which looked silly so now it's one big spoiler. Do not read unless you want to ruin everything forever! You've been warned!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2012
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @Nukenin

    Thanks for the insight, I haven't gotten there yet due to real life, but I try to stay active on the forums and have seen them.

    @Shandyr you definitely have a point and I was confusing Greater Wolfweres with Karoug. I think we both agree that a topic such as this is needed somewhere in the forums, its just a question of where.
  • TsyrithTsyrith Member Posts: 180
    edited December 2012
    According to DLTCEP:

    Kondar +1 is both silver and cold iron flagged.
    The Burning Earth +1 is both silver and cold iron flagged.
    Sword of Balduran is cold iron flagged only.
    Werebane +1 is both silver and cold iron flagged.

    RINGWOLF (Greater Wolfwere) Regeneration 5/sec, Protection from Melee Weapons typed non-silver.
    RINGLOUP (Loup Garou) Protection from Melee Weapons typed non-cold iron.


    Also, I thought the Greater Wolfwere was Karoug... /scuttlesofftoinvestigate
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Tsyrith said:

    According to DLTCEP:

    Kondar +1 is both silver and cold iron flagged.
    The Burning Earth +1 is both silver and cold iron flagged.
    Sword of Balduran is cold iron flagged only.
    Werebane +1 is both silver and cold iron flagged.

    RINGWOLF (Greater Wolfwere) Regeneration 5/sec, Protection from Melee Weapons typed non-silver.
    RINGLOUP (Loup Garou) Protection from Melee Weapons typed non-cold iron.


    Also, I thought the Greater Wolfwere was Karoug... /scuttlesofftoinvestigate
    Yes Karoug turns into the Greater Wolfwere
  • TsyrithTsyrith Member Posts: 180
    elminster said:

    Yes Karoug turns into the Greater Wolfwere

    But... but there's three of them! The only reason I ask is because one of the three has an extra 4/sec regeneration with immunity to non-magical weapons. I'm trying to explain to myself how I used the Sword of Balduran to kill him in one of my playthroughs, when RINGWOLF gives non-silver immunity and the Sword of Balduran isn't silver. Probably should get in there, spawn the weapon and a GWW and have at it...
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Tsyrith said:

    elminster said:

    Yes Karoug turns into the Greater Wolfwere

    But... but there's three of them! The only reason I ask is because one of the three has an extra 4/sec regeneration with immunity to non-magical weapons. I'm trying to explain to myself how I used the Sword of Balduran to kill him in one of my playthroughs, when RINGWOLF gives non-silver immunity and the Sword of Balduran isn't silver. Probably should get in there, spawn the weapon and a GWW and have at it...
    No clue then sorry. I have heard of DLTCEP but I haven't taken the time to figure it out yet. So idk how there are three of them.
  • TsyrithTsyrith Member Posts: 180
    elminster said:

    Tsyrith said:

    elminster said:

    Yes Karoug turns into the Greater Wolfwere

    But... but there's three of them! The only reason I ask is because one of the three has an extra 4/sec regeneration with immunity to non-magical weapons. I'm trying to explain to myself how I used the Sword of Balduran to kill him in one of my playthroughs, when RINGWOLF gives non-silver immunity and the Sword of Balduran isn't silver. Probably should get in there, spawn the weapon and a GWW and have at it...
    No clue then sorry. I have heard of DLTCEP but I haven't taken the time to figure it out yet. So idk how there are three of them.
    Ah! Well I figured out one of them a part of the level 9 shapechange spell. Opened up BG2 in the editor, same greater wolfwere WOLFGR01. Had a squiz at their abilities, no wonder I was having trouble with them in BG2, 10HP/sec regeneration due to 6/sec from ring and 4/sec applied to the creature. That's 60HP/round.

    So 1 is for the mage spell, 1 is BG2's, and the other must be Karoug/Infected party members.
  • RannRann Member Posts: 168


    Known Bugs:
    First of all there is currently a bug where he gains stacking regen anytime you rest or reload in the ship. Therefore be prepared to do the ENTIRE ship at one time right now. Save outside and don't save again until after he is dead. Otherwise his regen will get to the point where you will have to burst him down in a round or you will be unable to kill him.

    Ach, if only I'd read this one day earlier! I couldn't believe how hard it was to kill this guy, and it seemed to get harder and harder each time I tried. I didn't remember having so much trouble in vanilla BG. The last time I played vanilla, I actually went straight up all the stairs to deal with him first, and I should have done that this time instead of beating all the other levels of the ship and saving after each one. I finally only made it using the "talk to" cheat, dealing with everyone else first, and then mashing him with Balduran's sword while my tank guzzled Oil of Speed and healing potions -- and even then it took nearly 20 minutes. I must have saved and reloaded nearly a dozen times inside the ship.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @Rann

    Sorry that it wasn't up in time to help you, but glad to hear that you know now for next time and that you managed to kill him.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    Back to the top of page 1 with you. Anyone else have any fights they think need to be added to this?
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    A brief guide for Aec'Lectec may be useful. Just mention that deathgaze is dispellable and can be protected against by gaze protection like Potions of Mirrored Eyes. A note about his respawn ability could be useful, but just about everyone will figure that out on their own.

    There is a fairly difficult wizard battle the the city if you poke around enough houses, but on the whole, Aec'Lectec and Karoug are probably the only ones that so dramatically benefit from a bit of meta-gaming. Maybe throw in the Demonknight and explain how the mirror works.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited December 2012
    @elminster @tsyrith Thanks. Now I know how to make my party invincible.
    Edit: *Sigh* Never mind. I can't even equip the thing. No goofing off for me I guess....
    By the way... I believe the 60/round thing. They are like that in BG2 as well. You have to do tons of damage really fast to kill them. One of the harder things to kill in that game (without Death Effects) and something you can use yourself. *wink*
    Further Edit: To be on topic here how about Shandalar? And what about big bad Serevok himself?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited December 2012
    Ok ok so I already know the answer to how to kill Shandalar.
    Edit: Err well I used to know... Now they went and changed the rules on me. Umm... Help?
    I used to be able to just dispel his globe of invulnerability and bomb him with magical damage spells having my casters protected by mirror image (or mustard jelly shape now that that spell works again) and have some summons to take the chaos spell. Now I can't dispel the globe so that kills that Idea. You see he has a CRAZY AC and is immune to non magic damage and his saves pretty much always work and his spells can't be disrupted. Impossible now. Unless...
    Ok I now foresee that he can only be killed (without cheats) with the aid of only a few classes.
    1. Druid
    2. Sorcerer who wants to completely waste a known spell slot.
    3. Wild mage.

    1. Druid is the simplest path as a simple cast of BUGS!!!(as I like to say) will give Shandy a high spell failure rate. The level 3 version gives a 50% fail (save to avoid makes it near worthless) and the level 5 version gives a whopping 100% fail and no save (only pure druids can use this)! Cast this on him and make sure he fails his Globe of Invulnerability cast.
    2. If you really want to waste a level 4 slot then take secret word to dispel the globe.
    3. Just get lucky with the surges.
    Protect your casters with the ability to absorb/resist magic. Mustard Jelly and Mirror image work best. Make sure you can get around that Globe. Bombard him with spells until he's dead. Be careful! If he runs out of spells to cast he will teleport to safety.

    Some of the spells you can use to damage him:
    Chromatic Orb
    Magic Missile*
    Skull Trap*
    Vampiric Touch*
    Inflict Wounds
    BUGS!!!
    Magical Stone
    Evil Blight*

    *optimal choices for doing damage.

    @Dragonspear K. I'm done now. Let me know if you want that cleaned up a bit.
    Post edited by Tresset on
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    If anyone gives strats btw. I will go ahead and add them to the main post as well AND give credit where credit is due =)
  • NukeninNukenin Member Posts: 327
    edited December 2012
    @Tsyrith
    The Sword of Balduran SW1H18.ITM is indeed both Silver and Cold Iron. There's another Sword of Balduran item file in the game (comps18.ITM) that is only flagged Cold Iron but it's not the one you get from the container in the game.
    ^on the nature of a certain sword

    If you investigate KAROUG.DLG you find numerous occasions where the game triggers the change, force casting GREATER_WOLFWERE_CHANGE (spwi947.SPL) on Karoug, which has two effects—a lighting effect and a replace self with WOLFWEGR.CRE.

    In addition to RINGWOLF.ITM, WOLFWEGR.CRE also has IMMUNE1.ITM equipped in the other ring slot, which confers immunity to normal (non-magical) weapons.
    ^on the nature of a certain enemy

    So we're left with a Wolfwere who is immune to all but magic, silver weapons. This is an error, alas, as Wolfweres are not lycanthropes. He indeed should be immune to all but magic or cold iron weapons.

    He also shouldn't regenerate; that's a property more associated with lycanthropes, and only for damage not inflicted by silver weapons.

    Of course, for this very special wolfwere, obviously regeneration is essential to the existing challenge, so I suppose it could slide. Too bad it can't be more appropriately defined as regenerating only damage not inflicted by cold iron weapons. (Look at what craziness they did to try and get troll regeneration close to PnP. With the existing IE it'd pretty much have to be the same to support other damage-type-dependent regeneration.)
    ^ranting about misimplementation and were-/-were confusion

    I'm not sure if there's any way in the Infinity Engine's effects implementation to have an "OR" condition for weapon vulnerability—e.g. vulnerable to silver weapons OR magic weapons. In the case of the Greater Wolfwere, he was given immunity to non-silver weapons and non-magic weapons, but this excludes weapons that are silver but not magic, and weapons that are magic but not silver. (Never mind that, again, he should've been given vulnerability to cold iron, not silver, since he's a wolfwere, not a werewolf.)
    ^more ranting about misimplementation that probably is not easily corrected in the IE

    Also, the shapeshifter kit's greater werewolf transformation is granted RINGLOUP.ITM, which is immunity to cold iron. On a werewolf. Should be immunity to silver. (Not putting this in spoiler tags since I don't think it's really an issue that arises in BG:EE and I was tired of burying the truth!)
    RINGLOUP.ITM is of course named for and worn by the Loup Garou, who is a werewolf, and thus should be immune to silver, not cold iron.


    *collapses under the weight of all the above spoiler tags*

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited December 2012
    @Nukenin The third spoiler. Very good D&D monster lore there. Only concern here is
    They regenerated rapidly in BG2 as well. I like that feature (unprecedented as it may be). Makes for good challenge. Probably won't change either. As for the "all but iron/silver immunity": Not in BG2 but I still like the challenge in BG1. Also probably not changing.

    I don't think @Dragonspear wants us off topic here. Send me pm if you want to respond.
    Or edit your post... that works too I guess...
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @Tresset @Nukenin

    Thank you both for understanding that I wish to keep this thread on topic. It sounds like an interesting topic all its own, but I'm trying to make it so that in this hub everything people know is easily findable =)
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Come to think of it... One of the absolute hardest enemies in the game to kill is: THAT ROTTON STUPID BOUNTY HUNTER MAGE THAT CASTS MIRROR IMAGE AND THEN HORROR ON YOU AT THE FRIENDLY ARM! *ahem* That guy usually gives me hell because of how weak the party is at the time. I know of no reliable way to combat this guy. Assuming you want to follow the plot and go straight for the Friendly Arm (like I assume most beginners will) what is the best way to beat him? Is there any way at all? Aside from luck?
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @Tresset

    [Spoiler]Unfortunately the best way I know to beat him requires some meta game knowledge and either a high starting strength warrior type or someone who can pick locks. I don't think an 18 strength without a warrior modifier is enough to break open a lock on the second floor of Winthrop's Inn inside Candlekeep.

    The bottom left room has a locked container that contains a potion which makes you immune to fear.[/Spoiler]

    Other than that there are 2 big ways which aren't spoilers which with to use in that fight.

    The first one is picking up Xzar and Montaron before heading there. Multiple "bodies" for lack of a better term are good there. It only takes 1 attack to interrupt a spell cast.

    Imoen with her bow, Have Xzar learn some Larloch's Minor Drain and cast one and also use the wand of missiles. Then even if you miss the Mirror image you will take off a lot.

    The other big key is after he "aggros" i.e. goes to initiate dialogue, try to walk your party backwards so that more guards appear. Guards will help to kill him if he's in their sight range (which is a LOT farther during the day).

    While you won't get any experience if a guard lands the killing blow, its a lot better than dying.

    TL;DR

    Recruit Xzar and Montaron
    Make sure there are guards nearby to help
    Guards have a longer sight range during the daytime
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited December 2012
    Hmm yes, I suppose you could use Xzar and Monty as meat shields. And the potion too. Or let the guards do all the work. I suppose I am just being stubborn because I didn't like any of those options. (I'm starting to think that the whole reason the guards are there is to balance this encounter.) In my defense I think someone cast Rigid Thinking on me before this encounter.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    I don't consider them meatshields. In some ways if you look at the canon party game wise, it's assumed that you take them with you. Overwhelming him with 4 people is rather easy and without meta knowledge, you're very likely to be a scared 20 year old out on her own having just watched her father get killed.

    Also I think the reason Imoen is given a potion of speed (and then one for Montaron) is in reality for the same purpose.

    But ya I view them less at a meat shield, and more just higher damage and interrupt potential. I think the Assassin hones in on you first no matter who you have with you.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    @Tresset

    Shandalar? He's not suddenly become immune to mind affecting spells has he?

    Assuming he's no longer vulnerable to Confusion, have another mean trick: Silence does not aggro enemies, lasts two rounds / level, and is a Save At -5, I believe he saves on a 1 normally, so you shouldn't have too long to wait.

    Keep having your Cleric cast silence until it sticks.

    For actually killing him, lead off with all your mages casting Skull Trap. Your thieves should already have set all possible Snares around him, so when he turns hostile, he immediately enjoys about thirty damage from them alone, more from the Skull Traps. Then have literally everyone in your party fire magic missiles at him. Even the non-mages, with Wands.

    By the time your ten rounds of Silence (minimum) wear off, hopefully you've won already or you didn't have enough damage output handy.


    For whatever his name is, I don't care his name is now Steve, this depends on your class.

    Fighter: Run fatty run!
    Thief: Run fatty run!
    Mage: Cast Sleep. Win.
    Cleric: Cast Command. Win.

    Asides from the meta option of "Shoot him at range and then run out of eyeline when he casts horror" your average physical class' best hope is to use Imoen's Magic Missile Stick to interrupt him.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    The easy way to take out Shandalar is to use a wand of paralyzation first. It doesn't make him hostile and he saves at a -4. Once he is held, he goes down quite easily.
  • AlsnAlsn Member Posts: 97
    edited December 2012
    The way I killed shandalar as a solo sorc was to stack 5 skull traps just outside of activation range and then simply walk up and trigger them while under the effects of minor globe of invulnerability(skull trap has a larger explosion radius than activation radius).

    Instant kill, 26k XP ka-ching.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @Pantalion @AHF: Shandalar, like I said, has some pretty crazy saves. I made my strategy assuming that no one had the patience to load and reload and reload until he actually manages to fail one. Sure, If you CAN get lucky and have him fail one then killing him becomes a simple matter and there are tons of spells that would be bad for him to fail. I actually made my strategy back In old BG where I tried to feeblemind him and he saved at a -2(no kidding). I then assumed it would be a waste of my time to rely on that and kill him some other way, which I did. I don't know much about the "Save vs." system in AD&D rules (seems to be the only thing I don't know about the rules). (Not to mention that back then if he wasn't hostile at time of kill you got 10% exp)
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