There are two ways in which this issue must be address: from a logical vantage point, and from a practical vantage point. From a logical perspective only throwing axes have the mass to take advantage of the user's strength, the other weapons listed only require speed to be effective.
From a practical perspective slings should benefit from the strength bonus as they offer no advantages over bows or crossbows: bows are faster and crossbows deal higher base damage. Adding strength to damage keeps them a desirable choice.
It should also be noted that knives and darts, both already effective weapons, would become vastly overpowered in the hands of a high strength warrior. Furthermore, there are enough ridiculous character builds, I don't want 'Half-Orc Fighter Dart Thrower' to be one of them.
Me neither, which is why I was only supported strength bonus for darts if this is quite heavily capped (i.e. max base damage -1 *and* being given significant carry weight). For slings, well some classes are limited to using these anyway, so don't have much choice, and halflings get the THAC0 bonus, so even w/o the strength bonus there is some reason to use them, but I wouldn't mind too much if just slings *and* throwing axes got a strength bonus and *possibly* knives, as at least they have significant carry weight and are 2 APR, not 3
Why do people still complain about slings being a viable alternative to bows? They are not suppose to be, they are an inferior weapon and where always intended to be, just as they went out of use when bows came onto the scene in reality. They are used by classes that are weapon restricted and there are better choices when you are not restricted.
Where are all the threads complaining that daggers need to be a viable alternative in melee combat to scimitars, long swords and great swords?
I like the idea of getting close to PNP ruling wise with this. It makes the throwing weapons valuable, when normally I ignore them for warrior classes. I think it's cool to have different options, and everyone abuses the sling of Everand anyway since it's the only sling that works the way slings should.
Why do people still complain about slings being a viable alternative to bows? They are not suppose to be, they are an inferior weapon and where always intended to be, just as they went out of use when bows came onto the scene in reality. They are used by classes that are weapon restricted and there are better choices when you are not restricted.
Where are all the threads complaining that daggers need to be a viable alternative in melee combat to scimitars, long swords and great swords?
oh, but they actually are supposed to be very viable - only in fantasy games are slings perceived as a weak weapon. would entire armies have used them if they were shit, especially at a time when bows and javelins were readily available? a trained slinger could send bullets flying for 400 meters (for the metrically challenged: a quarter mile), easily take out your *eye* in closer ranges, and leave dents in your cute little plate mail identical to goddamn *muskets* (along with a case of massive internal bleeding).
slings are not toys, nor are they inferior weapons - there is a reason why the Romans were very infatuated with 'em. they can mess you up, in a very, very, "oh my god I'm pretty sure my insides have just liquefied" kind of bad way.
I agree with everything I've read from @Thorsson in this thread.
I believe you should check his quotes from the rules again, @Kurumi - they essentially prove that slings don't fall under the category of hurled weapons. That weighs heavier than your quotes, I'm afraid. It feels like you are too focused at trying to win the argument.
Just thought i'd point out that BG:EE does increase damage of throwing knives based on strength.
So slings/throwing knives get the bonus. No idea why axes wouldnt if knives do.
I don't think throwing knives do in BGEE, just slings
Actually, I've just tested in the main game, and it seems that with the latest (Dec 14th) patch, not only do slings get the strength bonus, but throwing axes and daggers too (but not darts, thankfully) - at least that's what the character record says - however, I tested this out on an earlier patch and this definitely wasn't the case previously, only slings got the strength bonus before (which I thought was bizarre)...
EDIT: I've also noticed that The Legacy of the Masters gloves (+1 to hit/+2 damage) are meant to work with "all melee weapons" according to the description, but their bonuses are being added to ranged weapons (not just thrown daggers and axes, which *might* make sense, at least in "melee mode", but bows too). I've bug reported this here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/13980/legacy-of-the-masters-adding-bonus-not-just-to-melee-weapons
Okay, stumbled upon the Sling of Seeking+2 while looking up some BG2 weapons. The weapon description makes a big deal out of the fact that this one particular sling adds your strength bonus to damage. That sort of seals it for me. If they had intended for ALL slings to add strength bonus, they wouldn't have made a special sling that does. The game designers clearly didn't mean for slings to get the strength bonus.
Just thought i'd point out that BG:EE does increase damage of throwing knives based on strength.
So slings/throwing knives get the bonus. No idea why axes wouldnt if knives do.
I don't think throwing knives do in BGEE, just slings
Actually, I've just tested in the main game, and it seems that with the latest (Dec 14th) patch, not only do slings get the strength bonus, but throwing axes and daggers too (but not darts, thankfully) - at least that's what the character record says - however, I tested this out on an earlier patch and this definitely wasn't the case previously, only slings got the strength bonus before (which I thought was bizarre)...
EDIT: I've also noticed that The Legacy of the Masters gloves (+1 to hit/+2 damage) are meant to work with "all melee weapons" according to the description, but their bonuses are being added to ranged weapons (not just thrown daggers and axes, which *might* make sense, at least in "melee mode", but bows too). I've bug reported this here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/13980/legacy-of-the-masters-adding-bonus-not-just-to-melee-weapons
Okay, stumbled upon the Sling of Seeking+2 while looking up some BG2 weapons. The weapon description makes a big deal out of the fact that this one particular sling adds your strength bonus to damage. That sort of seals it for me. If they had intended for ALL slings to add strength bonus, they wouldn't have made a special sling that does. The game designers clearly didn't mean for slings to get the strength bonus.
Okay, stumbled upon the Sling of Seeking+2 while looking up some BG2 weapons. The weapon description makes a big deal out of the fact that this one particular sling adds your strength bonus to damage. That sort of seals it for me. If they had intended for ALL slings to add strength bonus, they wouldn't have made a special sling that does. The game designers clearly didn't mean for slings to get the strength bonus.
Am not sure if I will get a definitive response, but thought I would ask!
BTW I just did some tests and currently a character with 19 Str (and no other modifiers) and one proficiency point does the following base damage with these "hurled" weapons (only):
Throwing Dagger: 8-11 damage with 2 APR Throwing Axe: 9-14 damage with 1 APR Sling: 9-12 damage with 1 APR
This information is shown on both the character sheet in-game and NearInfinity does indeed show that the Strength bonus damage is added to all these "hurled" weapons
Of course there is a downside with non-magical non-returning throwing daggers and axes, they're heavy (especially axes) and also require more inventory management, as can't be put in a quiver. Also in BGEE there are no magical throwing daggers, and only limited magical throwing axes. Even so, the throwing dagger, in particular, is borderline OP, though the lack of magical throwing daggers in BGEE mitigates this.
I honestly quite like this current system (despite my misplaced vote)... makes pretty much every ranged weapon viable, and Yeslick murdering things with extreme prejudice with a sling just puts a smile on my face.
I realize it's the unpopular vote. I realize that my experience is completely anecdotal and not at all valid.
But I want to say "None" under the umbrella of personal experience with medieval fairs that held Throwing Contests. Throw that axe as hard as you want. . It'll go there fast. But I'm under the impression that's not what causes the damage. The damage is caused, I assume, by getting it to stick.
These aren't baseballs. These are sticks with a very specific technique that you cannot skimp on if you want them to stick in that board, which I assume would be analogous to sticking into a person.
I DO however, want to see more support for thrown weapons, including darts. More magical and special ones. In the interest of having the game be more fun, I wouldn't mind seeing thrown weapons getting a stat to damage.
I honestly quite like this current system (despite my misplaced vote)... makes pretty much every ranged weapon viable, and Yeslick murdering things with extreme prejudice with a sling just puts a smile on my face.
Yes, I can live with it, at least they didn't add the strength modifier to darts, 3 APR with +7 strength bonus damage would've been just silly...
What my concern is, though, is whether the current situation is "stable" or whether the Devs will change this in future builds (considering that the release build only had slings getting the strength bonus), and also whether this situation will be different in BG2EE (considering BG2 vanilla only has Throwing Axes getting the Strength bonus, and only one magical sling getting it), which makes planning proficiencies for a character that you wish to import into BG2EE a little difficult. I wouldn't rely on slings nor throwing daggers getting the strength bonus in BG2EE.
All of them except xbow and shortbows, and all weapons should get bonus attacks except Bows. Make composite bows scale with str and eliminate the +2 dam bonus. This balances everything out nicely.
Dart fighter is not overpowered, nor is he chucking bar room needle darts. Your def is screwed if you chuck darts at someone slashing you, and melee users can just dual wield/WW to get the same or close to number of attacks.
A STR requirement on bow is about as close to adding STR bonus to ranged damage as I'm willing to go.
I think the current implementation of the rule is about as close to the rules as you can get. I'm happy where it is.
All missile weapons get Dex to-hit bonus Hurled weapons without set rate of fire (axes/slings/daggers) get Str damage bonus on top of that.
The only possible argument is Darts not getting the Str damage bonus, but since they fall into a set Rate of Fire grouping, they don't get the bonus. Hurled weapons do not have a set rate of fire, so they are allowed a Str bonus.
also, alot of people are using baseball pitchers as examples but strength/size are big components of throwing a baseball and throwing it hard. Thats why you see alot of baseball pitcher getting larger and larger. It's been proven that powertraining helps pitchers.
You know what I've always found very silly about casters and their ranged weapon options? Slings in particular require a certain amount of athleticism and/or training to be accurate, while a simple crossbow is point and shoot. This is yet another silly restriction 3rd Ed. Did away with (sorcs get light xbow proficiency).
Bows + xbows: Should require a minimum strengt to use, Stronger base damage = higher minimum strengt. It is how they work in reality. DEX bonus to hit + damage.
Slings: Damage depends on how fast the bullet in the sling are accelerated = DEX bonus only.
Darts: Basically, you can't just throw them like a rock, it should be DEX that counts.
Daggers: Both about STR and DEX (need both to effektively have an impact)
Axes: More about STR than anything else... Maybe minimum DEX required to use.
Throw that axe as hard as you want. . It'll go there fast. But I'm under the impression that's not what causes the damage. The damage is caused, I assume, by getting it to stick.
Strengt IS required to throw and axe. The harder you throw, the better the chance that it get stuck in its target. The more strenght, the deeper it also goes in its target...
Comments
Where are all the threads complaining that daggers need to be a viable alternative in melee combat to scimitars, long swords and great swords?
would entire armies have used them if they were shit, especially at a time when bows and javelins were readily available? a trained slinger could send bullets flying for 400 meters (for the metrically challenged: a quarter mile), easily take out your *eye* in closer ranges, and leave dents in your cute little plate mail identical to goddamn *muskets* (along with a case of massive internal bleeding).
slings are not toys, nor are they inferior weapons - there is a reason why the Romans were very infatuated with 'em. they can mess you up, in a very, very, "oh my god I'm pretty sure my insides have just liquefied" kind of bad way.
So slings/throwing knives get the bonus. No idea why axes wouldnt if knives do.
I believe you should check his quotes from the rules again, @Kurumi - they essentially prove that slings don't fall under the category of hurled weapons. That weighs heavier than your quotes, I'm afraid. It feels like you are too focused at trying to win the argument.
EDIT: I've also noticed that The Legacy of the Masters gloves (+1 to hit/+2 damage) are meant to work with "all melee weapons" according to the description, but their bonuses are being added to ranged weapons (not just thrown daggers and axes, which *might* make sense, at least in "melee mode", but bows too). I've bug reported this here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/13980/legacy-of-the-masters-adding-bonus-not-just-to-melee-weapons
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/13980/legacy-of-the-masters-adding-bonus-not-just-to-melee-weapons
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/13993/clarification-are-throwing-daggers-axes-and-slings-all-meant-to-add-strength-damage#latest
Am not sure if I will get a definitive response, but thought I would ask!
Throwing Dagger: 8-11 damage with 2 APR
Throwing Axe: 9-14 damage with 1 APR
Sling: 9-12 damage with 1 APR
This information is shown on both the character sheet in-game and NearInfinity does indeed show that the Strength bonus damage is added to all these "hurled" weapons
Of course there is a downside with non-magical non-returning throwing daggers and axes, they're heavy (especially axes) and also require more inventory management, as can't be put in a quiver. Also in BGEE there are no magical throwing daggers, and only limited magical throwing axes. Even so, the throwing dagger, in particular, is borderline OP, though the lack of magical throwing daggers in BGEE mitigates this.
I honestly quite like this current system (despite my misplaced vote)... makes pretty much every ranged weapon viable, and Yeslick murdering things with extreme prejudice with a sling just puts a smile on my face.
But I want to say "None" under the umbrella of personal experience with medieval fairs that held Throwing Contests. Throw that axe as hard as you want. . It'll go there fast. But I'm under the impression that's not what causes the damage. The damage is caused, I assume, by getting it to stick.
These aren't baseballs. These are sticks with a very specific technique that you cannot skimp on if you want them to stick in that board, which I assume would be analogous to sticking into a person.
I DO however, want to see more support for thrown weapons, including darts. More magical and special ones. In the interest of having the game be more fun, I wouldn't mind seeing thrown weapons getting a stat to damage.
What my concern is, though, is whether the current situation is "stable" or whether the Devs will change this in future builds (considering that the release build only had slings getting the strength bonus), and also whether this situation will be different in BG2EE (considering BG2 vanilla only has Throwing Axes getting the Strength bonus, and only one magical sling getting it), which makes planning proficiencies for a character that you wish to import into BG2EE a little difficult. I wouldn't rely on slings nor throwing daggers getting the strength bonus in BG2EE.
Dart fighter is not overpowered, nor is he chucking bar room needle darts. Your def is screwed if you chuck darts at someone slashing you, and melee users can just dual wield/WW to get the same or close to number of attacks.
I think the current implementation of the rule is about as close to the rules as you can get. I'm happy where it is.
All missile weapons get Dex to-hit bonus
Hurled weapons without set rate of fire (axes/slings/daggers) get Str damage bonus on top of that.
The only possible argument is Darts not getting the Str damage bonus, but since they fall into a set Rate of Fire grouping, they don't get the bonus. Hurled weapons do not have a set rate of fire, so they are allowed a Str bonus.
Slings: Damage depends on how fast the bullet in the sling are accelerated = DEX bonus only.
Darts: Basically, you can't just throw them like a rock, it should be DEX that counts.
Daggers: Both about STR and DEX (need both to effektively have an impact)
Axes: More about STR than anything else... Maybe minimum DEX required to use.