Which ranged weapon(s) in BGEE do you think *ought* to add strength damage?
Oxford_Guy
Member Posts: 3,729
IN BGEE the *only* ranged weapons which adds the strength bonus (and presumably malus, if v. low) are slings [EDIT: in the recent patches throwing daggers and axes also get the strength damage bonus] whereas in BG2 it's *only* throwing axes (and perhaps also the Dwarven Throwing Hammer, though am not sure), though there is one magic sling that adds strength damage. In the original BG1 I think it was slings, throwing axes and perhaps throwing knives too, though am unsure about the latter.
Personally I currently think throwing axes ought to add strength damage and perhaps slings (both these are 1 APR weapons, so could do with a boost, perhaps), maybe throwing knives ( 2 APR), but definitely not darts (with 3 APR would make these OP, in fact even throwing knives with 2 APR would be borderline OP). I don't think any of the bows should be given a strength bonus, this is kind of factored in anyway (e.g. strength usage requirements and the composite bow damage bonus) and they're more than powerful enough as it it.
For what it's worth the current Melee and Magic manual for BGEE (on page 24) suggests that throwing axes and daggers should receive strength bonus damage, but this doesn't happen in-game.
Anyway, I was wondering what everyone else thinks? For Throwing Axes, assume this would also include any Throwing Hammers
Personally I currently think throwing axes ought to add strength damage and perhaps slings (both these are 1 APR weapons, so could do with a boost, perhaps), maybe throwing knives ( 2 APR), but definitely not darts (with 3 APR would make these OP, in fact even throwing knives with 2 APR would be borderline OP). I don't think any of the bows should be given a strength bonus, this is kind of factored in anyway (e.g. strength usage requirements and the composite bow damage bonus) and they're more than powerful enough as it it.
For what it's worth the current Melee and Magic manual for BGEE (on page 24) suggests that throwing axes and daggers should receive strength bonus damage, but this doesn't happen in-game.
Anyway, I was wondering what everyone else thinks? For Throwing Axes, assume this would also include any Throwing Hammers
- Which ranged weapon(s) in BGEE do you think *ought* to add strength damage?187 votes
- Just Throwing Axes (i.e. BG2 Style)17.11%
- Just Throwing Axes and Slings (BG1 Style)15.51%
- Just Throwing Axes and Throwing Knives5.88%
- All thrown weapons (Axes, Daggers, Darts)12.83%
- Just Throwing Axes and Slings *and* Throwing Knives8.56%
- All thrown weapons (Axes, Daggers, Darts) *and* slings30.48%
- Just Slings (BGEE style)1.07%
- No ranged weapons5.88%
- Other2.67%
Post edited by Oxford_Guy on
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Comments
Ability Modifiers in Missile Combat
Attack roll and damage modifiers for Strength are always used when an attack is made with a hurled weapon. Here the power of the character's arm is a significant factor in the effectiveness of the attack.
When using a bow, the attack roll and damage Strength modifiers apply only if the character has a properly prepared bow (see Chapter 6: Money and Equipment). Characters never receive Strength bonuses when using crossbows or similar mechanical devices.
Dexterity modifiers to the attack roll are applied when making a missile attack with a hand-held weapon. Thus, a character adds his Dexterity modifier when using a bow, crossbow, or axe but not when firing a trebuchet or other siege engine.
Update: Damn, just realised, that there is another "All thrown weapons" choice, too.. of course I'd have voted for "All thrown weapons (Axes, Daggers, Darts) *and* slings".
Slings - they are a kind of weapon that you have to swirl in air, before releasing a bullet. Strength doesn't give you much here.
Darts - They are too light in weight to actualy make significant difference with higher strength
Knives - similar to darts. They are too light.
Axes are heavy, so with more strength you get more damage.
Ability Modifiers in Missile Combat
Attack roll and damage modifiers for Strength are always used when an attack is made with a hurled weapon. Here the power of the character's arm is a significant factor in the effectiveness of the attack.
When using a bow, the attack roll and damage Strength modifiers apply only if the character has a properly prepared bow (see Chapter 6: Money and Equipment). Characters never receive Strength bonuses when using crossbows or similar mechanical devices.
Dexterity modifiers to the attack roll are applied when making a missile attack with a hand-held weapon. Thus, a character adds his Dexterity modifier when using a bow, crossbow, or axe but not when firing a trebuchet or other siege engine.
Update: Damn, just realised, that there is another "All thrown weapons" choice, too.. of course I'd have voted for "All thrown weapons (Axes, Daggers, Darts) *and* slings".
Also, regardless of what this says, bows, in particular, really do not need any more bonuses in BGEE IMHO...
Doesn't make sense otherwise
Thrown Weapons:
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons, such as a vial of acid; see Throw Splash Weapon, page 158).
Projectile Weapons:
Light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow, specially built composite longbow, or sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he or she uses a bow or a sling.
Update: Damn, just realised, that there is another "All thrown weapons" choice, too.. of course I'd have voted for "All thrown weapons (Axes, Daggers, Darts) *and* slings".
While you do use strenght to throw a weapon, I think you don't actually "throw" a throwing dagger or a dart.
A dart is too lightweight to put any strenght in it anyway and when throwing a dagger or dart you basically use your wrist.
With melee weapons you can put your bodyweight into a slash or a thrust, but with throwing a dagger and a dart the damage you cause depends a LOT more about your throwing technique. The throwing axe is a lot bigger and heavier and the way you hurl it you can put a lot of weight, strenght in it.
Crossbows:
No question here, it's a mechanical weapon, has nothing to do with how strong you are. Well perhaps you can reload it quicker if you are stronger but I don't think it's significant in a game.
Bows: While you do need STR to draw one, it has a limit, which is not that hard to reach, so basically if you have the minimun STR for it, you can do it. Composite bows are a bit different but not that much and as the OP said "it's kind of factored in them anyway" with the dmg bonus.
Slings: I honestly don't understand why people want to put STR bonus to slings... You whirl it above your head, then release on of the string and the bullet flies. Where the hell is STR involved in this action???
Edit: I really should read all posts before posting.... So yeah, I'm practically on the same opinion as @Kirkor
1) They're too light - if the argument is made that the sort of darts that are meant to be represented in BG are heavy darts, then they should be made to be heavy to carry, to limited the amount of ammo that can be carried, like for throwing axes (which are (*very* heavy) and throwing daggers.
2) For game-balance reasons - 3 APR *and* the strength bonus is just too powerful for what is meant to be a weak ranged weapon - and there is no way that a dart should hit harder than an arrow fired from a bow. True they have a shorter range, but given that all ranged weapons are limited to sight range (30') in BG, bows don't have much of an advantage there.
BTW I actually use a bow in real-life, it's a composite recurve bow (like they use in the Olympics). How hard this hits is entirely based on the draw-weight of the limbs and whether the archer has the strength to draw the string back to the correct position. My bow has a 32Ib draw weight, which is as much as I can pull back fully without having wobbly arms (and therefore not being accurate). If someone much stronger than me used my bow, they still wouldn't hit hardly any harder with it, though, as you have to draw the string back to your anchor point by your nose, no further. On the other hand, in theory a 120Ib war bow (as used my English Archers to great success in the 100 Years War) would hit much harder, if you had the strength and skill to use it (I certainly wouldn't!!).
My thinking, though, is that the common bows in BG would all have more or less the same (and relatively low) draw weight, so that they could be used by most potential archers, which would limit the strength with which they could hit (especially in the case of short and long bows). An argument could perhaps be made that special one-off "mighty" composite bows could have the potential to hit harder, if the archer had the necessary strenghth to use them, but this is already at least partly represented by the +1 damage bonus for composite bows, which require 18 strength to use.
It's all about the technique the plus strenght you have you just CAN'T use when throwing something that small. Back to the body builder vs. table tennis player: you think the body builder with his huge muscles can move his arm faster than the table tennis player?
Your example for the sling is a very good one though!
ALso, BG1 allowed str bonus to darts as well. (and BG2 did for the ones that were from BG1, but the new darts didn't).
X-bows: No Str, gains enhancement to hit/damage
Bows: Short/Long (up to +2), Composite (any), gains enhancement only to hit. (If not possible, then limit str to only composite bows)
Thrown (Axes, darts, knives): Any str, any enhancement to hit/damage
Slings: Any str, gains enhancement only to hit.
All ranged weapons, including bows and crossbows, but not darts, should incur a to-hit penalty if the strength is low.
As to what makes sense: Sling definitely makes sense more than any other weapon to have a strength bonus. This is something you spin around over your head and then hurl at your target. The greater your strength-> the faster the spin and stronger the hurl-> the harder the bullet hits its target! Axes also make a lot of sense to be strength based as they have a lot of mass behind them. The greater the mass the greater the transfer from throwing speed to impact energy! That is how it works in the real world too people! Axes should get a strength bonus! Daggers have a similar thing going since they can be kinda heavy too. Darts, well, lets just say that this is a fantasy world. And finally lets not forget the throwing hammer in BG2! That makes the most sense of them all to be strength based (though its damage should be blunt instead of piercing)!
Ranged weapons do more damage when they move "Faster" through the air. So, more "speed" equals more damage.
Human (and, presumably, humanoid) physiology indicates "throwing speed" is NOT a function of strength -- except for very heavy weapons. Rather, its a function of what might be called "muscle twitch speed". Muscle twitch speed is more aligned with "dexterity" than "strength".
So, "dexterity" (not strength) should add bonuses to throwing light weapons -- knives, slings, darts.
Heavy weapons such as spears, hammers, axes should get a "strength" bonus in addition to the "dexterity" bonus.
Just opinions based on my understanding of physiology and physics. I like fantasy RPGs to have basis in reality where that makes sense.
Bows, on the other hand, definitely depend on strength to provide "killing power". So, limiting certain bows to certain strength levels (as done in BG) is realistic. Giving a direct strength bonus to composite bows also makes sense if one assumes the stronger human/humanoid will buy a stiffer custom bow than a weak human would buy.
Dorn makes up for it, and Bows are already insanely effective in BG1. Coran and Kivan with bows are outrageous. My halfling assassin has no problems poisoning people with his sling, albeit 17 strength