I agree, but was just pointing this out to show that darts don't lose out much on bows in terms of range (another reason IMHO *not* to add strength damage to darts, as they're already quite powerful with 3 APR...)
This is a case where maybe canon rules have to give way to game mechanics, but you don't get anywhere near the same number of good darts as you do arrows.
OK I've looked further and found two references that pretty much confirm that Slings are not hurled weapons. In the Complete Bard's Handbook it says the following, "Jongleurs can use all hurled weapons. A hurled weapon is any weapon that can be thrown (this does not include bows, blowguns or other missile weapons that are fired or shot). Otherwise Jongleurs are restricted to the following weapons: polearms, quarterstaff, sling, staff sling, and whip."
Clearly sling was not included in the hurled weapon category.
Then in the Player's Option Skill & Powers Book it says the following in relation to creating your own customized halfling character: "Attack Bonus (5): +1 bonus with hurled weapons and slings."
Seems pretty clear then that slings are not hurled weapons.
Strange, that the AD&D 2nd Ed PHB mentions the following then, yes?
Globe of cold. This creates a small globe about the size of a sling stone, cool to the touch, but not harmful. This globe can be hurled, either by hand to a distance of 40 yards (considered short range), or as a sling bullet.
I think we move in circles here, Thorsson and can only agree to disagree..
for me the two most important rules, that explain how it should be done are:
1. AD&D 2nd Ed PHB Damage Adjustment also applies to combat. The listed number is added to or subtracted from the dice rolled to determine the damage caused by an attack (regardless of subtractions, a successful attack roll can never cause less than 1 point of damage). For example, a short sword normally causes 1d6 points of damage (a range of 1 to 6). An attacker with Strength 17 causes one extra point of damage, for a range of 2 to 7 points of damage. The damage adjustment also applies to missile weapons, although bows must be specially made to gain the bonus; crossbows never benefit from the user's Strength.
[Notice that the sling IS a missile weapon and is not mentioned here to be excluded like crossbows are]
AND
2. AD&D 2nd Ed DMG Missile combat is defined as any time a weapon is shot, thrown, hurled, kicked, or otherwise propelled. Missile and melee combat have the same basic rules, but there are special situations and modifiers that apply only to missile combat.
[Notice that it's absolutely irrelevant, if the projectile is hurled or otherwise propelled]
AND
It's also noteworthy, that in the AD&D 2nd Ed "Arms and Equipment Guide" the damage adjustment isn't mentioned for all missile weapons (except that special made bows), but just for weapons that doesn't(!) get the adjustment like the "Arquebus".
Well, I guess this topic was also heavily discussed by the developers at the time of the creation of the IE games which would explain the different approach to it. Luckily they made it 100% clear in later edtions.
Strange, that the AD&D 2nd Ed PHB mentions the following then, yes?
Globe of cold. This creates a small globe about the size of a sling stone, cool to the touch, but not harmful. This globe can be hurled, either by hand to a distance of 40 yards (considered short range), or as a sling bullet.
I think we move in circles here, Thorsson and can only agree to disagree.
We only move in circles because you don't appear to understand what you're reading, like the above. That the stone can be hurled OR used as a sling bullet clearly means that it is not hurled if it is shot from a sling. But I give up; there's none so blind as those that won't see.
Dexterity is about speed and accuracy, hence initiative and missile to hit bonuses. Light weapons can't be thrown any faster by a strong person than a dexterous one. A heavy weapon like an axe or hammer has much more mass to overcome and can only be thrown at maximum velocity by applying strength. After that it's just physics--a massive object has more kinetic energy than a lighter one at the same velocity.
As for bows, they already have built-in adjustments by type (ie. long, composite). If you are strong enough to use the bow, you can pull it properly and get it's bonuses. Certain magic bows can adapt to your strength and increase their bonuses accordingly.
Sling bullets are no more massive than a dart or dagger so should not benefit from strength except for those slings magically enhanced to do so.
Strange, that the AD&D 2nd Ed PHB mentions the following then, yes?
Globe of cold. This creates a small globe about the size of a sling stone, cool to the touch, but not harmful. This globe can be hurled, either by hand to a distance of 40 yards (considered short range), or as a sling bullet.
I think we move in circles here, Thorsson and can only agree to disagree.
We only move in circles because you don't appear to understand what you're reading, like the above. That the stone can be hurled OR used as a sling bullet clearly means that it is not hurled if it is shot from a sling. But I give up; there's none so blind as those that won't see.
You're the one who isn't reading that sentence correctly.
You're reading it as "hurled... or as a sling bullet" and thinking "hurled or slung". But that's not what it says. It says "hurled, by hand or sling." You can tell by the placement of the word "either".
"This globe can be hurled, either by [method 1 of hurling], or [method 2 of hurling]." If you don't think that the sling is method 2 of hurling, then why does the word "either" appear? Where's method 2? For your interpretation to be correct, the word either would need to move, and the sentence would have to read, "This stone can either by hurled by hand..., or [insert verb that isn't 'hurled'] as a sling bullet."
Catapults and Trebuchets hurl stones. Hands hurl stones. Slings hurl stones. Canadians curl stones. Except for that last one, it's all the same idea.
Well, I'm a 3.5 and Pathfinder player. So I'm not sure if the changes to thrown weapon damage were present in AD&D? But in the pen & paper games all thrown weapons allow a strength bonus to damage. If you want a strength bonus on bows, that's where composites come in.
Dexterity is about speed and accuracy, hence initiative and missile to hit bonuses. Light weapons can't be thrown any faster by a strong person than a dexterous one. A heavy weapon like an axe or hammer has much more mass to overcome and can only be thrown at maximum velocity by applying strength. After that it's just physics--a massive object has more kinetic energy than a lighter one at the same velocity.
Yes, at the same velocity. But a less massive object hurled with the same force will have a higher velocity. That's simple physics.
Well, I'm a 3.5 and Pathfinder player. So I'm not sure if the changes to thrown weapon damage were present in AD&D? But in the pen & paper games all thrown weapons allow a strength bonus to damage. If you want a strength bonus on bows, that's where composites come in.
Oh dear. In 3.5 PnP you are right (and 3.0 and no doubt 4, 5 maybe too). This isn't 3.5 (etc).
@Rhyme Even if you are right (and IMO the English is unclear) I have three quotes which say it isn't the same, including one which lists exactly what counts as hurled.
I have no doubt that there are all sorts of discrepancies in rules. There's just too much text in D&D to not have them. And given the choice between a spell description and a list of things that count as hurled, I'd probably give the nod to the list of things that count as hurled.
I don't have a dog in this fight because I try to avoid slings whenever possible (I find them crude and primitive, and my party adventures with more style than that). I Just felt the need to defend Kurumi. You said she didn't understand what she was reading. She did. And the English isn't unclear there. But even if it was, we should at least be able to agree that outside of a D&D rule book context, a sling does something with a rock that is synonymous with hurling.
A sling hurls a rock A sling flings a rock A sling slings a rock A sling throws a rock A sling tosses a rock
Take your pick (wikipedia says "throws"). They mean the same thing.
SLING. One of the most common missile weapons is the humble sling. This is not a child's toy slingshot; this is a weapon that can hurl small stones or lead bullets with lethal force. The sling is a simple length of cord or cloth with a cup in the center. The projectile is placed in the cup, and the sling is whirled rapidly in a sidearm or overhead motion. Slings can be improvised from many materials, and are among the cheapest of weapons. Slingstones can be found in any rocky landscape. Normally, small round rocks are best, such as the type found in streambeds. Sling bullets are made of lead, bronze, or iron, much like the bullets for a firearm.
BUT.. Generally, a character may apply his Strength bonuses to any weapon powered by his own muscle. Any hand-held weapon used to slash, bludgeon, or thrust at an enemy certainly counts, but weapons that don't inflict damage or don't have a type don't allow a character to use his attack bonuses. For example, a character's Strength has no effect on the use of a lasso or net. Characters may use their reaction adjustment for high Dexterity when throwing or firing any kind of missile weapon. However, they do not use their Strength bonuses unless the weapon is thrown and complies with the conditions above. Firearms, bows, slings, and crossbows are not normally affected by a character's Strength. Bows can be made to take advantage of a character's Strength bonuses, but must be custom-made. Refer to Chapter 6: Money and Equipment in the Player's Handbook.
Also noteworthy (from the same book): The 16th-level Dart Specialist: It's ludicrous to allow a high-Strength character the full benefit of his muscular power if he insists on using tiny little weapons such as darts. A good way to address this kind of min-maxing is to limit the damage bonus granted by high Strength to the maximum roll of the weapon's base damage. A dart normally causes 1d3 points of damage against size M targets, so a character with exceptional Strength could gain a total of +3 to his dart's damage—but no more, even if he is normally entitled to a damage bonus of +4 or more.
Well, this is the first time Slings are explicitly mentioned to not gain a strength bonus, but there are still two things to consider.. 1. The Player's Option books are based upon AD&D 2.5 (BG2/BGEE) - which could finally clarify why there was a strength bonus added to Slings in the original BG1 (which was based on AD&D 2.0!) 2. The Player's Option books consist of (as the title suggests) variations of the basic rules hence this "option" or "variation" doesn't necessarily mean, that those rules are also valid if you just play by the basic rules.
Anyway.. the GM always has the "final" word about any rules and as we all can see.. often it's really not that easy to find a clear answer, which is why I esp. love the following quote so much..
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
Because in the end it should be about "fun".. and not necessarily about "rules" !!!
I have no doubt that there are all sorts of discrepancies in rules. There's just too much text in D&D to not have them. And given the choice between a spell description and a list of things that count as hurled, I'd probably give the nod to the list of things that count as hurled.
I don't have a dog in this fight because I try to avoid slings whenever possible (I find them crude and primitive, and my party adventures with more style than that). I Just felt the need to defend Kurumi. You said he didn't understand what he was reading. He did. And the English isn't unclear there. But even if it was, we should at least be able to agree that outside of a D&D rule book context, a sling does something with a rock that is synonymous with hurling.
A sling hurls a rock A sling flings a rock A sling slings a rock A sling throws a rock A sling tosses a rock
Take your pick (wikipedia says "throws"). They mean the same thing.
This!
+see my quote from "Player's Option™: Combat & Tactics".
Well I've spotted something which made me change my thoughts on the matter.
This potion can be used only by warriors. When a giant strength potion is consumed, the individual gains great strength and bonuses to hit and damage while using any hand-held or thrown weapon. The effect lasts for 10 turns.
Whilst I seem to recall Slings counting as thrown weapons for these purposes thanks to a quirk in the rules, thrown weapon strength damage is clearly the design as intended, and makes the current behaviour a bug that should be reported by someone who isn't so very, very lazy.
SLING. One of the most common missile weapons is the humble sling. This is not a child's toy slingshot; this is a weapon that can hurl small stones or lead bullets with lethal force. The sling is a simple length of cord or cloth with a cup in the center. The projectile is placed in the cup, and the sling is whirled rapidly in a sidearm or overhead motion. Slings can be improvised from many materials, and are among the cheapest of weapons. Slingstones can be found in any rocky landscape. Normally, small round rocks are best, such as the type found in streambeds. Sling bullets are made of lead, bronze, or iron, much like the bullets for a firearm.
BUT.. Generally, a character may apply his Strength bonuses to any weapon powered by his own muscle. Any hand-held weapon used to slash, bludgeon, or thrust at an enemy certainly counts, but weapons that don't inflict damage or don't have a type don't allow a character to use his attack bonuses. For example, a character's Strength has no effect on the use of a lasso or net. Characters may use their reaction adjustment for high Dexterity when throwing or firing any kind of missile weapon. However, they do not use their Strength bonuses unless the weapon is thrown and complies with the conditions above. Firearms, bows, slings, and crossbows are not normally affected by a character's Strength. Bows can be made to take advantage of a character's Strength bonuses, but must be custom-made. Refer to Chapter 6: Money and Equipment in the Player's Handbook.
Also noteworthy (from the same book): The 16th-level Dart Specialist: It's ludicrous to allow a high-Strength character the full benefit of his muscular power if he insists on using tiny little weapons such as darts. A good way to address this kind of min-maxing is to limit the damage bonus granted by high Strength to the maximum roll of the weapon's base damage. A dart normally causes 1d3 points of damage against size M targets, so a character with exceptional Strength could gain a total of +3 to his dart's damage—but no more, even if he is normally entitled to a damage bonus of +4 or more.
That actually makes quite alot of sense, I wouldn't be quite so oppossed to darts getting the strength bonus if it was capped (although you'd only notice any "nerfing" if you had above 18/75 STR), presumably this could also apply to throwing daggers - i.e. max bonus of 4 and even throwing axes - max bonus of 7, though you'd only notice the axe restriction if you had 20 or more STR)
Well, this is the first time Slings are explicitly mentioned to not gain a strength bonus, but there are still two things to consider.. 1. The Player's Option books are based upon AD&D 2.5 (BG2/BGEE) - which could finally clarify why there was a strength bonus added to Slings in the original BG1 (which was based on AD&D 2.0!) 2. The Player's Option books consist of (as the title suggests) variations of the basic rules hence this "option" or "variation" doesn't necessarily mean, that those rules are also valid if you just play by the basic rules.
Anyway.. the GM always has the "final" word about any rules and as we all can see.. often it's really not that easy to find a clear answer, which is why I esp. love the following quote so much..
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
Because in the end it should be about "fun".. and not necessarily about "rules" !!!
Indeed, but also on following some logic - I think a good compromise (if possible to implement using the BGEE engine) would be as suggested above:
*Only* throwing axes (and hammers), throwing daggers and darts can qualify for a strength bonus to damage, but this is capped at the weapon's base (not magic) max damage (although perhaps -1 of the weapon's base damage would be more balanced?)
my vote is wrongly placed..just wanna mention it :P
All thrown weapons (Axes, Daggers, Darts) <- should be this. (-slings)
Despite the massive posting above just mine, a sling is NOT all about putting force into it, cause it's just not possible. You are trying to get the exact point when to release the bullet/stone/projectile/cake/whatever and not necessary how much force it has once released, cause you can swing like crazy or like a softy - the purpose is the same. The damage or the 'ouch' just comes from the projectile and not the hurler itself. Maybe the hurler has a minor impact, but what does matter is what I do throw.... You could of course ignore the fact, that we are talking about fantasy and not real-life slings but you still can't just put into more force behind the bullet by whirling like an idiot- it's really only to get higher ranges than a common stone-throw; but then you are less likely to hit something.
(I tried it some time ago with greek-styled weaponary and it is FUCKING hard to actually hit some target! ^^)
For axes/daggers and darts my actual strength does indeed measure the damage it actual inflicts upon a hit. Could only suggest to go to some medieval market and try for yourself - I don't need to read some rulebook for this, that possibly defies my own logic and knowledge of basic physics. [played 2nd + 2.5 on a sidenote ^^]
Indeed, but also on following some logic - I think a good compromise (if possible to implement using the BGEE engine) would be as suggested above:
*Only* throwing axes (and hammers), throwing daggers and darts can qualify for a strength bonus to damage, but this is capped at the weapon's base (not magic) max damage (although perhaps -1 of the weapon's base damage would be more balanced?)
This! (and I'd be ok with both versions [max or -1])
I don't need to read some rulebook for this, that possibly defies my own logic and knowledge of basic physics. [played 2nd + 2.5 on a sidenote ^^]
I tend to agree, but on the other hand AD&D has a lot of flawed rules and if we'd take away or change all of them, then we'd have "a" game, but not an AD&D game anymore .. anyway .. am always open for changes, that make sense and all players could live with (aka house rules), but with a computer game that tends to a broader audience, it's much more complicated to please everyone. Which is also why I think that the best, CRPG developers can do is to make their games as moddable as possible!
Indeed, but also on following some logic - I think a good compromise (if possible to implement using the BGEE engine) would be as suggested above:
*Only* throwing axes (and hammers), throwing daggers and darts can qualify for a strength bonus to damage, but this is capped at the weapon's base (not magic) max damage (although perhaps -1 of the weapon's base damage would be more balanced?)
This! (and I'd be ok with both versions [max or -1])
Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this! The current setup whereby only slings (of all things...) get the strength damage just seems *wrong* and the poll has confirmed this at least ("just slings" got only 2 votes out of 125!), even if the other possibilities are a little more controversial. I'm wondering if some sort of compromise consensus (e.g. as above) for thrown weapons could be agreed and put forward as a suggestion to the Developers?
So - who would be willing to compromise and go with a version (details to be discussed*) of the "capped strength bonus" proposal above?
* I'm currently favouring the max base damage -1 version, as am a little worried darts would still be too OP otherwise with their 3 APR
I don't really know... what if you are hitting a sand golem, for example. Will a faster flying axe hurt it like a slower flying one, having in mind that both axes are flying very fast? It depends, I guess. Let it be different for the different games.
But to keep things consistent, I would go for all throwing weapons except darts(and other piercing throwing weapons). Bows and crossbows should not get bonus. Sling damage type should be bludgeoning and not piercing and it should benefit from strength.
@Djimmy I can't see the logic of that at all. A spear (javelin) is a piercing thrown weapon, and it's absolutely certain that Strength has an effect on that. Thrown daggers and axes have very similar characteristics, except that a dagger is more likely to pierce something vital. Both rules and logic say that excluding piercing weapons is wrong.
Back on Darts, I have another quote, from a site about the Roman Military:
"During the late empire the legionaries began to carry the Plumbata, this was a weighted throwing dart. Six plumbata could be secured to the back of a shield and they had a greater range then a javelin. Lead weights on the plumbata also gave it good penetration. These weapons proved extraordinarily effective for the Romans, allowing their heavy infantry to operate effectively as their own archers."
This is what a military dart is like - more like a mini-javelin than a game dart. Throwing daggers and throwing axes share many of the same characteristics; if strength affects one it most certainly affects the other. I have no idea why the AD&D Dart carries no weight, but it does in 3rd Ed, 0.5lb for a Medium one, 1lb for a large.
In the thread I link to above there is an interesting comment:
"Darts in AD&D 1st edition were not broken at all. Throwing rate of fire is 3 per round and damage is 1d3. Strength only adds to melee not ranged, so it was a very good fighting technique for low Str characters. 'Unearthed Arcana' introduced Weapon Specialisation for fighters which would give a +1 to hit and +2 to damage and up to 6 attacks per round at 13th level and above. This turned the dart thrower into a force to be reckoned with.
2nd Edition took this even further by allowing Str to be added to throwing damage, which gives dart fighters insane damage. And when you combined that with magical darts, gauntlets of ogre strength and a girdle of giant strength you had a fighter that could do god like damage. Minimum damage became +1 for dart, +3 for magical bonus, +6 for gauntlets, and +12 for girdle, which equates to 22pts per dart as a minimum and you get to throw 6 per round.
'Skills and Powers' went even further into the ridicules with the throwing skill which gives a +1 to hit or damage when first bought and another +1 for each 4 proficiency points invested into the skill. So at 20th level you have invested 20 points into the skill giving a bonus of +5 to hit or damage on top of the +1 you get from skill for a total of +6, which can be added all to damage. On top of this they also have weapon mastery which gives a +2 to hit and +3 to damage for darts for a grand total of 31pts per dart per round (22pts from above and 9pts from Skills and Powers)."
So it seems that 2nd Ed was recognised to have an issue with Darts. Despite the rules and logic maybe Darts have to be tweaked in some way(s).
*Only* throwing axes (and hammers), throwing daggers and darts can qualify for a strength bonus to damage
That's what I wanted to say in the first post in this thread! Glad that you have changed your mind!)
Yes, but only if the strength bonus is capped for darts at their max base damage (i.e. 3) or maybe even less. Also, if these are meant to be the heavy "war darts" that @Thorsson discusses, they should have some significant carry weight, like throwing axes and daggers do. If neither the strength damage bonus cap nor carry weight penalty can easily be implemented, I'd still rather just go with *only* throwing axes and daggers getting the strength damage bonus.
I also agree with @Djimmy that slings should do blunt weapon damage, not piercing, but still don't think they should get the strength damage bonus (something BG2 recognised).
Bows can be made to take advantage of a character's Strength bonuses, but must be custom-made. Refer to Chapter 6: Money and Equipment in the Player's Handbook.
So...there's no way to make a custom bow in BGEE right? ^_^"
I'm wondering if some sort of compromise consensus (e.g. as above) for thrown weapons could be agreed and put forward as a suggestion to the Developers?
No. Bad Oxford_Guy! Bad!
What you meant to say was, "I'm wondering if some sort of compromise consensus for thrown weapons could be agreed upon and put forward as a suggestion to MODDERS?" If the developers need to change it, that change should be either, "We've changed it to how it worked in BG1", or "We've changed it to how it worked in BG2." I don't care how many people agree with the consensus (and I'm one of them), we shouldn't be in the business of changing the game for everybody (especially when the game is 10+ years old and beloved). That's what mods are for.
But yeah, a mod that grants strength bonuses, but only to the max base damage of the weapon, would make me happy.
I'm wondering if some sort of compromise consensus (e.g. as above) for thrown weapons could be agreed and put forward as a suggestion to the Developers?
No. Bad Oxford_Guy! Bad!
What you meant to say was, "I'm wondering if some sort of compromise consensus for thrown weapons could be agreed upon and put forward as a suggestion to MODDERS?" If the developers need to change it, that change should be either, "We've changed it to how it worked in BG1", or "We've changed it to how it worked in BG2." I don't care how many people agree with the consensus (and I'm one of them), we shouldn't be in the business of changing the game for everybody (especially when the game is 10+ years old and beloved). That's what mods are for.
But yeah, a mod that grants strength bonuses, but only to the max base damage of the weapon, would make me happy.
Okay, I can see your point. What *was* the original situation in BG1? I know slings got the damage bonus, but did anything else? I know in BG2 it was just throwing axes.
Some darts also got a str bonus in BG2...the basic version do, and the specialty ones that were in BG1 do as well though not the new ones added in BG2, but I don't think you can even find any of the original aside from basic darts without RR or using the console/SK.
There are two ways in which this issue must be address: from a logical vantage point, and from a practical vantage point. From a logical perspective only throwing axes have the mass to take advantage of the user's strength, the other weapons listed only require speed to be effective.
From a practical perspective slings should benefit from the strength bonus as they offer no advantages over bows or crossbows: bows are faster and crossbows deal higher base damage. Adding strength to damage keeps them a desirable choice.
It should also be noted that knives and darts, both already effective weapons, would become vastly overpowered in the hands of a high strength warrior. Furthermore, there are enough ridiculous character builds, I don't want 'Half-Orc Fighter Dart Thrower' to be one of them.
But the key difference here is...Half-Orc High Str Fighter GM Dart Throwing Death Machine is a perfectly legit PnP build (and Human High Str Fighter High Mastery Dart Throwing Death machine, was already legit in BG1, hell you can pull it off in BG2 as well if you use basic darts), meanwhile the BG Berserker kit has brokenly power abilities (Immune to damn near everything, +2 hit/damage for 10 rounds, basically no downside, aside from a joke of breather penalty preventing back to back rages), and none of it's PnP penalties (Leather only, no ranged, 5% chance per round of losing control for 3 rounds while enraged, fewer immunities), and yet I don't see anyone cry to nerf that (aside from myself of course).
And that's just one kit...the kits are already brokenly powerful in a lot of cases, save the Wizard Slayer and Shapeshifter who are getting screwed out of abilities and/or immunities with no compensation. And don't get me started on Bards....oh we left out 1/2 your abilities completely, and the of the half you did get, we're gonna implement in a shoddy, barely functional, if at all fashion, and not give you %&$% to compensate for it.
Any semblance of Balance was thrown out the window a long time ago, even by DnD standards...and even then, at it's core DnD isn't balanced at all. High Level Wizards rape reality at a whim while high level fighters....hit stuff...harder..a little more often....and if they're really lucky might get an intelligent weapon that can cast a handful of useful spells per day.
voted only throwing axes, but I'm currently pretty happy with how slings work - they actually make slingers viable characters, giving the player a bit of extra variety... and variety is always good.
Comments
Globe of cold. This creates a small globe about the size of a sling stone, cool to the touch, but not harmful. This globe can be hurled, either by hand to a distance of 40 yards (considered short range), or as a sling bullet.
I think we move in circles here, Thorsson and can only agree to disagree..
for me the two most important rules, that explain how it should be done are:
1. AD&D 2nd Ed PHB Damage Adjustment also applies to combat. The listed number is added to or subtracted from the dice rolled to determine the damage caused by an attack (regardless of subtractions, a successful attack roll can never cause less than 1 point of damage). For example, a short sword normally causes 1d6 points of damage (a range of 1 to 6). An attacker with Strength 17 causes one extra point of damage, for a range of 2 to 7 points of damage. The damage adjustment also applies to missile weapons, although bows must be specially made to gain the bonus; crossbows never benefit from the user's Strength.
[Notice that the sling IS a missile weapon and is not mentioned here to be excluded like crossbows are]
AND
2. AD&D 2nd Ed DMG Missile combat is defined as any time a weapon is shot, thrown, hurled, kicked, or otherwise propelled. Missile and melee combat have the same basic rules, but there are special situations and modifiers that apply only to missile combat.
[Notice that it's absolutely irrelevant, if the projectile is hurled or otherwise propelled]
AND
It's also noteworthy, that in the AD&D 2nd Ed "Arms and Equipment Guide" the damage adjustment isn't mentioned for all missile weapons (except that special made bows), but just for weapons that doesn't(!) get the adjustment like the "Arquebus".
Well, I guess this topic was also heavily discussed by the developers at the time of the creation of the IE games which would explain the different approach to it. Luckily they made it 100% clear in later edtions.
Dexterity is about speed and accuracy, hence initiative and missile to hit bonuses. Light weapons can't be thrown any faster by a strong person than a dexterous one. A heavy weapon like an axe or hammer has much more mass to overcome and can only be thrown at maximum velocity by applying strength. After that it's just physics--a massive object has more kinetic energy than a lighter one at the same velocity.
As for bows, they already have built-in adjustments by type (ie. long, composite). If you are strong enough to use the bow, you can pull it properly and get it's bonuses. Certain magic bows can adapt to your strength and increase their bonuses accordingly.
Sling bullets are no more massive than a dart or dagger so should not benefit from strength except for those slings magically enhanced to do so.
You're reading it as "hurled... or as a sling bullet" and thinking "hurled or slung". But that's not what it says. It says "hurled, by hand or sling." You can tell by the placement of the word "either".
"This globe can be hurled, either by [method 1 of hurling], or [method 2 of hurling]." If you don't think that the sling is method 2 of hurling, then why does the word "either" appear? Where's method 2? For your interpretation to be correct, the word either would need to move, and the sentence would have to read, "This stone can either by hurled by hand..., or [insert verb that isn't 'hurled'] as a sling bullet."
Catapults and Trebuchets hurl stones. Hands hurl stones. Slings hurl stones. Canadians curl stones. Except for that last one, it's all the same idea.
If you want a strength bonus on bows, that's where composites come in.
I don't have a dog in this fight because I try to avoid slings whenever possible (I find them crude and primitive, and my party adventures with more style than that). I Just felt the need to defend Kurumi. You said she didn't understand what she was reading. She did. And the English isn't unclear there. But even if it was, we should at least be able to agree that outside of a D&D rule book context, a sling does something with a rock that is synonymous with hurling.
A sling hurls a rock
A sling flings a rock
A sling slings a rock
A sling throws a rock
A sling tosses a rock
Take your pick (wikipedia says "throws"). They mean the same thing.
Player's Option™:
Combat & Tactics
SLING.
One of the most common missile weapons is the humble sling. This is not a child's toy slingshot; this is a weapon that can hurl small stones or lead bullets with lethal force. The sling is a simple length of cord or cloth with a cup in the center. The projectile is placed in the cup, and the sling is whirled rapidly in a sidearm or overhead motion. Slings can be improvised from many materials, and are among the cheapest of weapons. Slingstones can be found in any rocky landscape. Normally, small round rocks are best, such as the type found in streambeds. Sling bullets are made of lead, bronze, or iron, much like the bullets for a firearm.
BUT..
Generally, a character may apply his Strength bonuses to any weapon powered by his own muscle. Any hand-held weapon used to slash, bludgeon, or thrust at an enemy certainly counts, but weapons that don't inflict damage or don't have a type don't allow a character to use his attack bonuses. For example, a character's Strength has no effect on the use of a lasso or net. Characters may use their reaction adjustment for high Dexterity when throwing or firing any kind of missile weapon. However, they do not use their Strength bonuses unless the weapon is thrown and complies with the conditions above. Firearms, bows, slings, and crossbows are not normally affected by a character's Strength. Bows can be made to take advantage of a character's Strength bonuses, but must be custom-made. Refer to Chapter 6: Money and Equipment in the Player's Handbook.
Also noteworthy (from the same book):
The 16th-level Dart Specialist: It's ludicrous to allow a high-Strength character the full benefit of his muscular power if he insists on using tiny little weapons such as darts. A good way to address this kind of min-maxing is to limit the damage bonus granted by high Strength to the maximum roll of the weapon's base damage. A dart normally causes 1d3 points of damage against size M targets, so a character with exceptional Strength could gain a total of +3 to his dart's damage—but no more, even if he is normally entitled to a damage bonus of +4 or more.
Well, this is the first time Slings are explicitly mentioned to not gain a strength bonus, but there are still two things to consider..
1. The Player's Option books are based upon AD&D 2.5 (BG2/BGEE) - which could finally clarify why there was a strength bonus added to Slings in the original BG1 (which was based on AD&D 2.0!)
2. The Player's Option books consist of (as the title suggests) variations of the basic rules hence this "option" or "variation" doesn't necessarily mean, that those rules are also valid if you just play by the basic rules.
Anyway.. the GM always has the "final" word about any rules and as we all can see.. often it's really not that easy to find a clear answer, which is why I esp. love the following quote so much..
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."
- Gary Gygax
Because in the end it should be about "fun".. and not necessarily about "rules"
+see my quote from "Player's Option™: Combat & Tactics".
@Rhyme.. thanks, but "she".. not "he"
*Only* throwing axes (and hammers), throwing daggers and darts can qualify for a strength bonus to damage, but this is capped at the weapon's base (not magic) max damage (although perhaps -1 of the weapon's base damage would be more balanced?)
All thrown weapons (Axes, Daggers, Darts) <- should be this. (-slings)
Despite the massive posting above just mine, a sling is NOT all about putting force into it, cause it's just not possible. You are trying to get the exact point when to release the bullet/stone/projectile/cake/whatever and not necessary how much force it has once released, cause you can swing like crazy or like a softy - the purpose is the same. The damage or the 'ouch' just comes from the projectile and not the hurler itself. Maybe the hurler has a minor impact, but what does matter is what I do throw....
You could of course ignore the fact, that we are talking about fantasy and not real-life slings but you still can't just put into more force behind the bullet by whirling like an idiot- it's really only to get higher ranges than a common stone-throw; but then you are less likely to hit something.
(I tried it some time ago with greek-styled weaponary and it is FUCKING hard to actually hit some target! ^^)
For axes/daggers and darts my actual strength does indeed measure the damage it actual inflicts upon a hit. Could only suggest to go to some medieval market and try for yourself - I don't need to read some rulebook for this, that possibly defies my own logic and knowledge of basic physics. [played 2nd + 2.5 on a sidenote ^^]
So - who would be willing to compromise and go with a version (details to be discussed*) of the "capped strength bonus" proposal above?
* I'm currently favouring the max base damage -1 version, as am a little worried darts would still be too OP otherwise with their 3 APR
But to keep things consistent, I would go for all throwing weapons except darts(and other piercing throwing weapons). Bows and crossbows should not get bonus. Sling damage type should be bludgeoning and not piercing and it should benefit from strength.
Back on Darts, I have another quote, from a site about the Roman Military:
"During the late empire the legionaries began to carry the Plumbata, this was a weighted throwing dart. Six plumbata could be secured to the back of a shield and they had a greater range then a javelin. Lead weights on the plumbata also gave it good penetration. These weapons proved extraordinarily effective for the Romans, allowing their heavy infantry to operate effectively as their own archers."
And this thread has a picture: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?552092-2nd-ed-What-s-this-I-keep-hearing-about-dart-abuse/page3
This is what a military dart is like - more like a mini-javelin than a game dart. Throwing daggers and throwing axes share many of the same characteristics; if strength affects one it most certainly affects the other. I have no idea why the AD&D Dart carries no weight, but it does in 3rd Ed, 0.5lb for a Medium one, 1lb for a large.
In the thread I link to above there is an interesting comment:
"Darts in AD&D 1st edition were not broken at all. Throwing rate of fire is 3 per round and damage is 1d3. Strength only adds to melee not ranged, so it was a very good fighting technique for low Str characters.
'Unearthed Arcana' introduced Weapon Specialisation for fighters which would give a +1 to hit and +2 to damage and up to 6 attacks per round at 13th level and above. This turned the dart thrower into a force to be reckoned with.
2nd Edition took this even further by allowing Str to be added to throwing damage, which gives dart fighters insane damage. And when you combined that with magical darts, gauntlets of ogre strength and a girdle of giant strength you had a fighter that could do god like damage. Minimum damage became +1 for dart, +3 for magical bonus, +6 for gauntlets, and +12 for girdle, which equates to 22pts per dart as a minimum and you get to throw 6 per round.
'Skills and Powers' went even further into the ridicules with the throwing skill which gives a +1 to hit or damage when first bought and another +1 for each 4 proficiency points invested into the skill. So at 20th level you have invested 20 points into the skill giving a bonus of +5 to hit or damage on top of the +1 you get from skill for a total of +6, which can be added all to damage. On top of this they also have weapon mastery which gives a +2 to hit and +3 to damage for darts for a grand total of 31pts per dart per round (22pts from above and 9pts from Skills and Powers)."
So it seems that 2nd Ed was recognised to have an issue with Darts. Despite the rules and logic maybe Darts have to be tweaked in some way(s).
I also agree with @Djimmy that slings should do blunt weapon damage, not piercing, but still don't think they should get the strength damage bonus (something BG2 recognised).
What you meant to say was, "I'm wondering if some sort of compromise consensus for thrown weapons could be agreed upon and put forward as a suggestion to MODDERS?" If the developers need to change it, that change should be either, "We've changed it to how it worked in BG1", or "We've changed it to how it worked in BG2." I don't care how many people agree with the consensus (and I'm one of them), we shouldn't be in the business of changing the game for everybody (especially when the game is 10+ years old and beloved). That's what mods are for.
But yeah, a mod that grants strength bonuses, but only to the max base damage of the weapon, would make me happy.
From a practical perspective slings should benefit from the strength bonus as they offer no advantages over bows or crossbows: bows are faster and crossbows deal higher base damage. Adding strength to damage keeps them a desirable choice.
It should also be noted that knives and darts, both already effective weapons, would become vastly overpowered in the hands of a high strength warrior. Furthermore, there are enough ridiculous character builds, I don't want 'Half-Orc Fighter Dart Thrower' to be one of them.
And that's just one kit...the kits are already brokenly powerful in a lot of cases, save the Wizard Slayer and Shapeshifter who are getting screwed out of abilities and/or immunities with no compensation. And don't get me started on Bards....oh we left out 1/2 your abilities completely, and the of the half you did get, we're gonna implement in a shoddy, barely functional, if at all fashion, and not give you %&$% to compensate for it.
Any semblance of Balance was thrown out the window a long time ago, even by DnD standards...and even then, at it's core DnD isn't balanced at all. High Level Wizards rape reality at a whim while high level fighters....hit stuff...harder..a little more often....and if they're really lucky might get an intelligent weapon that can cast a handful of useful spells per day.