What is the point of bard?

kingthrall

Ok I really have issues with bard because I like the idea of playing one but I am not the kind of player
that dual classes melle with magic, and wearing robes sounds lame compared to armour but I lose spellcasting (usually go for the mellee). That said the bards song does not seem very useful other than balancing out morale.

in the description it mentions being a jack of all trades also and having no pick lock annoys me as I am not fond of picking pockets when everyone becomes an enemy if you fail.

So please convince me why a bard is even remotely useful.

Grulo

Bards are not useful. Blades are. They are pretty capable fighters and with some self-buffs like mirror image and stoneskin, can be pretty deadly in melee.

Also they are pretty good backup casters, specially in BG1 since they are able to reach level 8.

Sidekick

Skalds are decent as well

Chow

Bards add in some extra spells, some of which they can cast better than wizards because they level up faster, and can also handle ranged support or add in some luck bonuses. Their ability to pick pockets means there's one thieving skill less you need to put points to. However, the thing that makes me nearly always pick one up to a party, is Lore: being able to stuff your wizards with Magic Missiles instead of Identify, and knowing how immediately to use items without first backtracking from the dungeon to the nearest town to pay 100 gold pieces for each item, is a massively important asset for me.

Grulo

Sidekick said:

Skalds are decent as well

There is a discussion about this already somewhere. Skalds are good in BG1 but useless in BG2-ToB once HLAs are available (improved bard song).

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HugoRune

One shouldn't underestimate the fact that bards are a spellcasting class with a rogue's level progression. Granted, the difference isn't that great in BG1 but, in general, they'll do more damage with level scaling spells, have more mirror images and stone skins and are better at dispelling than wizards. So yeah, the only really powerful bard is the Blade but they all make really solid backup casters with a few nifty abilities on the side and all in all I think they fill their jack-of -all-trades / party support role quite nicely.

Chow

The reason I don't like either Blade or Skald is that I think Lore is, as I stated above, bard's most important ability - and both of those kits significantly reduce it.

Which is a shame, because Skald's song is pure awesomeness.

HugoRune

Lore is quite nice to have for utility but it's something that can be replicated by a first level spell, an item that can be bought for around 2000 gold at the start of BG2 and, for a little money, by almost every shopkeeper. If that was the bard's most important ability it'd be rubbish indeed. In any case, even a blade with 1/2 the lore value will be ale to identify most items rather early and a Skald doesn't have reduced lore, only pickpocket.

Allbrother

Because it's insanely powerful and ridiculously awesome
In BG2 that is

ajwz

Treat a bard like you would treat a beautiful, seductive wizard.

Chow

HugoRune said:

Lore is quite nice to have for utility but it's something that can be replicated by a first level spell,

Every memorization of Identify is one memorization less for Magic Missile.

HugoRune said:

an item that can be bought for around 2000 gold at the start of BG2

Yes, at the start of BG2, but nowhere in the first game. And even in BG2 it only works three times a day, which is not always enough.

HugoRune said:

and, for a little money, by almost every shopkeeper.

There are no shopkeepers in the depths of Durlag's Tower.

BelgarathMTH

@kingthrall, are you asking about specifically pure-classed bards? Because, with the introduction of BG2 kits, they really aren't worth anything. However, each of the three bard kits has something special to offer.

1) The blade provides a variation on fighter/mage, with a rogue's fast xp progression table.

2) The skald provides the best buff in BG1, and SoA. He will shine a bit less in ToB, but will still have the highest level in the party, plus the Use Any Items feat. He can even delay the taking of Enhanced Bardsong in favor of taking Use Any Items first, and maybe even a Magic Flute, or some other HLA, since his default bardsong is almost as good as Enhanced Bardsong.

3) The jester has a song that amounts to a constant casting of the fourth-level spell Confusion on every round. What's not to like about that?

ZanathKariashi

Bare in mind, bards aren't properly implemented at ALL. Their bard song, their most iconic and unique ability, doesn't even work right....that's just sad. And they aren't as proficient in dual-wielding as they're supposed to be (able to put up to two points) (and due to two weapon style having more 1 more rank then it does in PnP, the blade is even getting screwed despite being the only bard to have properly implemented proficiency restrictions).

badbromance

Is there a mod that changes the bard song closer to PnP?

Gallowglass

Bard song is much better implemented in IWD using basically the same game engine, so it ought to be implementable in BG.

HugoRune

Chow said:

HugoRune said:

Lore is quite nice to have for utility but it's something that can be replicated by a first level spell,

Every memorization of Identify is one memorization less for Magic Missile.

HugoRune said:

an item that can be bought for around 2000 gold at the start of BG2

Yes, at the start of BG2, but nowhere in the first game. And even in BG2 it only works three times a day, which is not always enough.

HugoRune said:

and, for a little money, by almost every shopkeeper.

There are no shopkeepers in the depths of Durlag's Tower.

Somehow I never had a problem identifying stuff, even down in durlags tower which is really the only place where the bardic lore ability is anything more than just convenient. You don't even need to memorize identify normally, just memorize them before you rest, identify, re-memorize your normal spells and rest again. After all, that's kinda what you do when you rest until healed too. If you don't want to do that in a dungeon, there are more than enough identify scrolls to go around for those situations. Also, what's the need to maximize your magic missiles? Sure it's a useful spell to have in some situations but I've found I hardly ever use up my level 1 spells after a certain point.

Anyway, the only bard kit that loses out on lore is the Blade and he makes up for it by actually being a powerful class in hi s own right. Seems worthwhile to me.

ZanathKariashi

They're also handy for people that don't abuse rest.

I don't know...IWD had a lot of weird stuff also...bard spellcasting up to 8th level (under 5th they actually become as good as mages capacity-wise, just require a lot more levels for the same power), all those extra songs as levels went up. I think they're from Complete Bard...but I'm not sure since I don't have a copy of that one.

I'm more irritated that the song doesn't have the proper radius and duration. It's supposed to be 10 ft/level and 1 round/level duration...meaning your bard just sings for 3 rounds to start the effect, then can go contribute to the fight. Below lvl 3, it's worse then now, at level 3 it's basically the same as now, and above level 3 you start getting some free rounds to do other things. At lvl 10, you'd have 7 rounds of song up time before you had to start singing again.

At current, only the jester song and improved bard song have a significant radius. Skalds and Bards have to basically be right in the middle of combat to effect everyone. While Improved bard song hits the whole screen.

Rogue-rebalancing fixed a lot of the issues I have with rogues in general, but they didn't correct the duration for bard song (or change two-weapon style to the proper values), and instead added lingering song as an HLA, which while sort of nice, ISN'T the way it should be. On the other hand, they did overhaul the epic songs to be specific for each kit (and removed the blade's entirely giving them whirlwind attack instead), so Skald's continue to have a purpose in the end-game.

Xavioria

I lug one around to identify my crap and to steal magical ammo that's about it.

DJKajuru

Playing effectivelly with a bard depends on how tactical you are - bards can cast any spell , use any weapon, most of the magical items , scrolls and potions - that said , you can plan just about any tactic you want. In BG1, they're weak if you don't buff or equip them well enough.

rdarken

Chow said:

The reason I don't like either Blade or Skald is that I think Lore is, as I stated above, bard's most important ability - and both of those kits significantly reduce it.

Which is a shame, because Skald's song is pure awesomeness.

Skald doesn't reduce lore I don't think. Just pickpocket.

Malbortus

Isn't your mage slinging stones most of the time? Then a bard may be a valid alternative.

- You still have arcane spells when needed.
- They might actually hit stuff with a weapon.
- They get to use wands.
- They don't have to fill up spell level 1 with Identify.
- Your thief can dispense with Pick Pockets.

TJ_Hooker

From my experiency so far from my current playthrough with a blade, you need to put some effort in to really get the most out of your bard. I'm a pretty passive player, and as such tend to really under utilize spells and abilities, so my blade's performance isn't exactly stellar. But I get the feeling that if I made a better effort to fully exploit my bards abilites, he'd be pretty powerful.

Lemernis

The point of a Bard... or a Beastmaster... or Wizard Slayer... or low level Monk... etc., is to provide a challenge for the player by figuring out how best to utilize the class or kit's natural strengths, whilst at the same time minimizing their deficits.

It's like being dropped into the wilderness with just a swiss army knife instead of an entire camping set. Figure out what to do with what you have. Use it as smartly as possible. And work (i.e., apply some creativity and ingenuity) a bit to get the most out of it.

This type of challenge provides a nice contrast to the type of character that is just pure hell-on-wheels, nuking enemies left and right with god-like prowess.

ZanathKariashi

Yeah, properly played, even the currently gimp'd as hell bard can still murder everything through the whole saga, solo even (and is one of the easier classes to do it with). But just imagine how much more awesome they'd be if they weren't getting screwed out of stuff they're SUPPOSED to have.

SwordsNotWords

Lore. Garrick is my identification machine and capable long range damager.

Oxford_Guy

BTW how exactly does the non-kit bard song work, does it provided any "luck" bonus (like I think it does in PnP) and does it get any better with higher levels (like the Skald's song)? All the manual says is:

Increase Morale to 10
Remove Fear
Protection from Fear

If you want to play a bard-like bard (the Blade seems almost like a different class entirely), as it is a Skald, which gets a better bard song (which gets better at higher levels) and +1 to hit/damage seems like a better bet, only losing out on pickpockets (though this is still usable).

szb

@Oxford_Guy Unfortunatly the luck bonus does not work, and the song doesn't get better. Check out the Rogue rebalancing mod (not sure if it works for bgee yet), they fixed luck bonus, gave improving bard song for plain bard + different enchanted songs for all the kits.

Jester is a good choice in my opinion. It has no disdavantages, doesn't lose the essence of bards like the blade, and his song is actually better then the plain bard song.
Oh and it also improves with levels (its not in the description but it works)

Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a +2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round

Bercon

IMO if you want to play a bard, you are better off with Elven F/M/T. You can actually fill in the thief spot in a party, you are decent fighter (ranged at least with 19 dex and elven thac0 bonus on bows) and you can cast the basic buffs like remove fear, haste etc.

Oxford_Guy

Bercon said:

IMO if you want to play a bard, you are better off with Elven F/M/T. You can actually fill in the thief spot in a party, you are decent fighter (ranged at least with 19 dex and elven thac0 bonus on bows) and you can cast the basic buffs like remove fear, haste etc.

But you level *very* slowly, which is the opposite of what a bard does

ZanathKariashi

The Bard song only provides a +1 morale bonus until lvl 15 (aka not a damn thing), then it becomes a +1 luck bonus (better but basically unnoticeable at this lvl)., at 21 it also protects from fear (*chortle, snort*). This is unlisted by the way, despite technically working the same way since original BG1 (if you used a xp cap remover).