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The familiars need help in so many ways...

TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
edited April 2013 in Fixed
One of them is as follows:
Expected behavior: Pseudo dragon can knock stuff out with its special weapon.
Current behavior: It cant do that in the least...

Why? Because its only weapon is "s1-3" which is basically just a 1d3 slashing creature weapon. I learned this through Control M. As a side note this thing's thac0 is nowhere near as good as it should be (It hits AC6 at a minimum of an 11. So that is a thac0 of 17 rather than 13 like the description.)

Honestly though... I have noticed that most, if not all of the familiars have bugs in implementation and/or some serious discrepancies in their descriptions. I did some research in BG2 and I think most of these bugs are inherited from there. Seriously though; someone in the developer position should probably just open up all the familiars files and look for bugs and discrepancies. I guarantee that they will find plenty enough to keep them occupied for quite a while as the issues involved in that alone seem quite plentiful.
Post edited by Aedan on

Comments

  • MatteoTuriniMatteoTurini Member Posts: 105
    Hi! I've conjured up a rabbit familiar (true neutral mage), and it adds 12 hit points to my character.
    In the spell description, it's reported that the rabbit has 24 hit points, so that's correct.
    In the item description, though, that's written that the rabbit has 16 hit points.

    I'm not sure which one is correct (I'm guessing there's just a typo in the description), but anyway I think they should be consistent.

    Bye!
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, we actually worked on them :D And still...
    I think these OP effects won't remain (like imp lost its save or death poison).
    Unmodded bg2 has s1-3. But my modded bg2 has some stun claws coming from @CamDawg.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
    The HP bonus to caster also needs to be entirely removed or at least reworked so wizards don't start with more hit points that any other class.
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    Making the familiar give 1HP per level of the wizard up to one half the HP of the familiar would keep the feature but balance it out for low levels.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    *sigh* Are we going to whine about wanting to nerf things again? It isn't like the familiars are really OP... They have low HP and if they die they cause a huge penalty. They all have a terrible thac0 and do super lousy damage anyway. Using them in a fight is usually stupid because you usually just get a constitution and HP penalty. The only really good one is the imp but that would change simply by giving it a different spell. I say, excluding imp, let them keep whatever perks they were meant to have; they need it for being of any use for more than 1% of the game (or .01% of the sieries).
    As for the HP bonus... That becomes very tiny once you reach early-mid BG2. Also, even with the HP boost, your mage is probably still one of the most frail people in your party since their armor likely sucks and 12 HP does not a tank make. The main penalty of having a familiar in the long run is usually 1 less inventory space. I would prefer that using them in combat were actually a risk worth taking.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @camDawg where can I find that mod? I would love a KO ing pseudo dragon.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Well, the BG2 Fixpack gives pseudo-dragons the ability to knock out opponents on attack because that's what their description says they do.
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    I'm against nerfing.

    But arguing that +12HP at level 1 for a mage is balanced is ridiculous.

    It is definitely balanced by mage level 12. So giving them 1 of those 12 hps every level till 12 would balance it better.

    That being said, I was suggesting a way to balance things. I'm completely for it staying unbalanced and I love it, especially on a Fighter / Mage.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    I just dl'd Near Infinity and I was able to fix it myself. After a few hours of confusion I discovered that there was already a pseudo dragon claw weapon so I just made it use that. I also boosted the thac0 to match the description.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Tresset said:

    ...
    As for the HP bonus... That becomes very tiny once you reach early-mid BG2....

    Yeah, but we are talking about early-mid-final bg1.
    The spirit animals have also been balanced so they scale up to the bg2 level without breaking bg1.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited January 2013
    Well I'm starting to see your point now... My modified pseudo dragon is sleeping just about everything it touches instantly. I have never had an easier time getting past Tarnesh... I suspect I won't use it for much until the game becomes a little harder.
    The bonus HP is less of a concern for me though since it just means that your mage may be killed by 2-3 wolf hits instead of just one (yay). I also failed to mention in the above comment that I think the bonus HP becomes kind of "meh whatever" very quickly even in BG1. It certainly does not inspire me to go without some hamster packing warrior backup because I have a tank on my hands. It more feels like a small reward for deciding to make my PC a mage rather than choosing from the abundance of nice mages which all have nice perks in the NPC department. Especially after considering all the nice perks they get such as Xan's Moonblade and Edwin's amulet. It feels quite nice that I finally get a perk of my own other than some really "meh" abilities related to the plot. Like I said before: 12 HP does not a tank make... only a slightly less squishy mage.

    Edit: I completely understand balancing the spirit beasts too. Since you start BG2 at a high level there was no need to program low level behavior in them. In BG1 that certainly isn't the case. But I also think that 12 HP is no where NEAR as unbalanced as starting with immunity to half the game at level 1. If you gave me a cloak, for instance, that gave me +12 hp I probably wouldn't even wear it on my mage for very long and instead pick up Algernon's, Wolf, or Displacement cloaks and dump the +12 hp cloak on one of my NPC peons. It honestly isn't that great a bonus IMO.
    Post edited by Tresset on
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    BTW I recently discovered that Bard song (most importantly *Skald* song, which provides +2 THAC0/+2 Damage *and* -2 AC) affects familiars too, it actually makes the melee oriented Bard-allowed Familiars (e.g. Pseudo Dragon) quite nasty*, and provides some extra protection for the others :-)

    * a Pseudo Dragon under the influence of Skald Song has a base THAC0 of 11, -4 AC (which would be -7 if it cast it's Blur spell) and does 3-5 damage with it's claws (though sounds like these are implemented as slashing weapons, so would get THAC0 penalties in many situations) with 2 APR (plus of course the chance to stun opponents), and has 50% magic resistance...

    I think the extra 9-12 HP at level 1 that you get from Familiars is a little excessive, would prefer it to be a little more progressive e.g. 25% of familiars HP to level 5, then 50% or something. They did scale things the other way around in ToB in that familiars got more HP (and therefore so did your Mage/Bard)
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    Tripling your HP at level 1 is a pretty great bonus.

    Scales from +200% HP to +22%HP assuming max HP rolls and a +2 con bonus by level 9.

    +22% HP isn't that great a bonus? Because that is the worst you get, +200% HP is amazing.

    Level 1 no reload on a mage. 6HP and I take an unlucky arrow and I get to end my game. 18HP and I take an unlucky arrow and I get to keep playing.

    I don't think comparing it to a cloak bonus is really fair given you are turning it into a if I could pick A or B I would pick B. Where as, with this you don't have to choose. Having one less inventory slot isn't a real downside. It is completely free.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @Oxford_Guy True, but unless you messed with the .cre file like I did the pseudo dragon's thac0 is actually a measly base 17. The real power of my edited pseudo dragon is its knock out ability. The claw weapon I gave it did 1d6 damage and a sleep effect on every hit with a -2 penalty to the save no less. Just to clarify I did not edit the claw weapon in any way and it was named psdclaw; psd being the abbreviation they seem to have used for the pseudo dragon.

    @moopy my point with the cloak thing was comparing the value of 12 hp to other magical boosts. I meant to show that if I had to make a choice I would choose a different bonus. Consider it this way: If 12 HP just once were on a spectrum of the value of effects, it would rank somewhat low in my opinion. I will admit that it is a life saver from level 1-3 but once I got my full party I just let my warriors take all the risks and kept my mage in back to chuck spells and daggers. Besides, he's a wild mage so he needs the health to survive himself.

    P.S. Pseudo dragon regenerates. Neat, huh?
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Tresset said:

    @Oxford_Guy True, but unless you messed with the .cre file like I did the pseudo dragon's thac0 is actually a measly base 17.

    Really? I was just going on the in-game description then subtracting the Skald bonus :-(

    What's the Pseudo Dragon's base THAC0 *meant* to be in BGEE?
    Tresset said:


    The real power of my edited pseudo dragon is its knock out ability. The claw weapon I gave it did 1d6 damage and a sleep effect on every hit with a -2 penalty to the save no less. Just to clarify I did not edit the claw weapon in any way and it was named psdclaw; psd being the abbreviation they seem to have used for the pseudo dragon.

    I thought that some of the familiars abilities were toned down a little for BGEE (e.g. the Imp can't polymorph into a hasted sword spider anymore, just a "ordinary" huge spider), maybe they decided to nerf the Pseudo Dragon? Or is it a bug?
    Tresset said:



    P.S. Pseudo dragon regenerates. Neat, huh?

    Another thing not documented in the in-game description, but I did notice that my neutral evil fighter/mage's Dust Mephit does this too...

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @Oxford_Guy As far as I could tell the psd was unchanged from bg2. Also the imp casts the same polymorph spell you get making it probably the best familiar in terms of combat ability. (I would also like to note that the mustard jelly form does not have the slow effect it should so that would be a bug for no matter who casts the spell.) I looked at the good and neutral familiars and only the psd had the regeneration. Not sure about the evil ones though since I only checked the imp. But yes like I said in the original post, whatever ability balancing they may or may not need the descriptions need lots of work so that they reflect the reality of the familiar's abilities.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Tresset said:

    @Oxford_Guy As far as I could tell the psd was unchanged from bg2. Also the imp casts the same polymorph spell you get making it probably the best familiar in terms of combat ability. (I would also like to note that the mustard jelly form does not have the slow effect it should so that would be a bug for no matter who casts the spell.) I looked at the good and neutral familiars and only the psd had the regeneration. Not sure about the evil ones though since I only checked the imp. But yes like I said in the original post, whatever ability balancing they may or may not need the descriptions need lots of work so that they reflect the reality of the familiar's abilities.

    Either that or their abilities need bug-fixing first, but it's difficult to know what needs fixing and what is meant to be, but just wrongly described!
  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,551
    Familiars descriptions and abilities have been vastly tweaked for balance reasons. Now pseudo dragon cannot knock enemies with its attacks (this ability is no more mention in the description).
  • LinariusLinarius Member Posts: 8
    I know there are D&D rules about familiars and maybe those rules are being followed in BG, but, purely from a gameplay perspective within BG alone... familiars are pretty silly and need a serious reworking. Every time they are out of your pack you risk a permanent -1 constitution penalty, which if you have a mage that's normally designed means going from 16 to 15 constitution so losing 1hp / level forever. So in practice the 'Find Familiar' spell is actually just the 'Find 6 (or 12) hp' spell. You cast it and gain a few hp and lose an inventory slot permanently. In practice its a spell that has nothing to do with familiars really. That's really kind of silly and also renders the differences between familiar types kind of meaningless. Familiars could be so fun to have in the game! But at present they really are not in the game.

    Id suggest either:

    1) keeping the rules re familiars as is, but change the graphic rendering so that even when a familiar is 'in your pack' and safe, its still hopping (or flying) around near you. Perhaps intermittently, and it cant be selected and attacked. Purely visual candy but it would make all casters with familiars more fun to look at and play.

    2) Change the rule that you lose -1 constitution permanently. Make it maybe that (just for example) you immediately take damage equal to the full max hp of your familiar if it dies (maybe killing you), and are automatically stunned for 1-2 rounds. And make Find Familiar only castable once per day (or per week if this is possible)

    Those are my suggestions.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @Linarius Try posting in the feature requests section of the forums. This section is for bug reporting and these are the ones that are already fixed. Not many people look at the fixed section.
  • LinariusLinarius Member Posts: 8
    Ahh OK TY. Will do. Ill just copy it to there...not sure if I can delete this one here.
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