The weakest dragon in D&D is supposed to be the white one. I wouldn't mind if they tossed in an optional encounter with a white dragon that could only realistically be slain by a well equipped group at the xp cap. It would be the Demogorgon of BG:EE, but probably wouldn't have a large dungeon like the Watchers Keep to guard it. Should also yield some decent loot to use in the final fight against Sarevok. Hardly a Carsomyr, but something good for BG1. Like a +3 weapon or something similar.
Okay, I checked and confirmed that DSotSC uses a BG2 green dragon. With SCS/SCS II installed that must be a doozy. I look forward to having a go at it.
Edit: Erm, it's just a dragon animation so I'm not quite as psyched. Also SCS scripting doesn't affect the critter. Oh well.
@Amadarial Yes, and with the new areas introduced with Dorn il-Khan and Rasad yn Bashir, one of them looked quite snowy and mountainous, so that would be the perfect place for a white dragon.
There no other good monster to be added? Really must be a dragon? More and more the game will reach the Skyrim approach of dragons if something like this is approved...
@kamuizin You gotta remember, killing a dragon is never easy, not even a juvenile one. They can still breathe three times a day, and wing buffet and tail slash, and this one would have about 60-65 hit points. And it's breath is poison, let's not forget.
I don't see why adding a young dragon to BG 1 is such a stretch or is considered a waste. Hell, you can kill the red dragon in BG 2 at lvl 9-10, which is about what level you are at in BG 1 at the end of ToTSC, so adding a dragon to BG 1 is my NO means a stretch, nor is it anything like Skyrim, infact please stop comparing the two, as there is no comparison to be made what so ever.
Personally I don't like the idea of adding a dragon to baldur's gate. Just seems like something that would cheapen the overall experience. In bg2 you had a lich which was epic to find then they kind of spammed them in the bg2 expansion making the earlier experience seem not so special.
@Amardarial It would require a decent build up quest wise and a solid reason for why a character < 8 levels could hope to compete with a dragon.
With mods that can be installed for the BG1 there's a lot of XP available. You can get a party to around level 8-9 as it stands. New content and DLCs will also provide more XP.
Making a worth while Dragon encounter for BG 1 would not be hard, it would most defiantly be something you do towards the end of the game, as anything pre-level 7 or so would stand very little chance of winning without cheesing the game mechanics (Say by Infi-Summons), the quest chain could be quiet good, maybe even deal in gaining you a few levels before even meeting the Dragon (This of course would probably highly depend on whether the XP cap is raised for the EE or not), instead of the usual 1-2 quests before done, you could have a area very much like Durlaq's Tower (Setup wise, not story/layout) in that you travel and do many things before meeting the end area, which would be the Dragons lair (Likely a Cave of sorts giving it would likely be a White or Green Dragon).
I mean Imagine you come across a new village, in said village they speak of a local cult that has been stealing cattle, and recently even people have begun to vanish, the Mayor asks if your party is willing to look into this, verify if the cult is indeed behind it or if it's something else. As your progress you eventually find the cults main HQ, through a series of battles you defeat the leaders and learn the truth behind the cult, which is that they were worshiping a young dragon as a god, giving the events going on along the Sword Coast the Dragon was hesitant to make any moves itself, so instead it had the cult raid local villages a little at a time for food and treasure, in order to keep a eye away from it, perhaps even going so far as making the cult members appear as if part of the Iron Thrones bandits, so no attention is drawn to them.
and voila you got a nice quest chain that ends in a Dragon, makes sense why its there, and by time you even got to the Dragon you should be a level or two higher then when you started, and fair a better chance....hell maybe even make fighting the dragon optional in the sense you can talk your way out of even having to fight it (easier if a Green Dragon opposed to Whites, which overall are the most monster like of the dragons having a much lower int/wis then the rest and leaning towards CE)...
Hmm....ok this post was long so...enough is enough :P
Making a worth while Dragon encounter for BG 1 would not be hard, it would most defiantly be something you do towards the end of the game, as anything pre-level 7 or so would stand very little chance of winning without cheesing the game mechanics
We're basically talking about a quest mod. What you outline would actually be a lot of work for a modder (ditto a small modding team). But if a dragon quest in BG1 is well realized, I'm sure it is DLC that most fans will pay for. If you're interested, you buy it and install it. If not, then you don't. Player's choice.
maybe even make fighting the dragon optional in the sense you can talk your way out of even having to fight it (easier if a Green Dragon opposed to Whites, which overall are the most monster like of the dragons having a much lower int/wis then the rest and leaning towards CE)...
Imo, it should only be feasible to win with the party at around level 8 minimum. (Which would require mods and DLCs to gain the XP.) My vote would be for a very young adult green dragon who has just acquired the special ability Suggestion. Per 2ed MM
"Green dragons... love intrigue and seek to enslave other woodland creatures, killing those who cannot be controlled or intimidated... If the target creature intrigues the dragon or appears to be difficult to deal with, the dragon will stalk the creature... Sometimes, the dragon elects to control a creature, such as a human or demi-human, through intimidation and suggestion. Green dragons like to question men, especially adventurers, to learn more about their society, abilities, what is going on in the countryside, and if there is treasure nearby... The sights and smells of the woods are pleasing to the dragon, and it considers the entire forest or woods its territory... Sometimes the dragon will enter into a relationship with other evil forest-dwelling creatures, which keep the dragon informed about what is going on in the forest and surrounding area in exchange for their lives. If a green dragon lives in a forest on a hillside, it will seek to enslave hill giants, which the dragon considers its greatest enemy. A green dragon makes its lair in underground chambers far beneath its forest..."
Some players may be unable to defeat this foe. If so, there should be an opportunity to go back to an earlier save and work something out with the creature by following an option in the dialog tree. If I were writing it, the party would pay a hefty price to escape with their lives. Perhaps surrender all their loot--and I mean every bit of it. And/or to pay extortion to the creature and return later with an amount of gold. If the party doesn't do so, the dragon will waylay them later and the fight ensues. Not to get overcomplicated with it, but something like this would do justice an enemy of a dragon's stature.
Making a worth while Dragon encounter for BG 1 would not be hard, it would most defiantly be something you do towards the end of the game, as anything pre-level 7 or so would stand very little chance of winning without cheesing the game mechanics
We're basically talking about a quest mod. What you outline would actually be a lot of work for a modder (ditto a small modding team). But if a dragon quest in BG1 is well realized, I'm sure it is DLC that most fans will pay for. If you're interested, you buy it and install it. If not, then you don't. Player's choice.
maybe even make fighting the dragon optional in the sense you can talk your way out of even having to fight it (easier if a Green Dragon opposed to Whites, which overall are the most monster like of the dragons having a much lower int/wis then the rest and leaning towards CE)...
Imo, it should only be feasible to win with the party at around level 8 minimum. (Which would require mods and DLCs to gain the XP.)
My vote would be for a very young adult green dragon who has just acquired the special ability Suggestion. Per 2ed MM
"Green dragons... love intrigue and seek to enslave other woodland creatures, killing those who cannot be controlled or intimidated... If the target creature intrigues the dragon or appears to be difficult to deal with, the dragon will stalk the creature... Sometimes, the dragon elects to control a creature, such as a human or demi-human, through intimidation and suggestion. Green dragons like to question men, especially adventurers, to learn more about their society, abilities, what is going on in the countryside, and if there is treasure nearby... The sights and smells of the woods are pleasing to the dragon, and it considers the entire forest or woods its territory... Sometimes the dragon will enter into a relationship with other evil forest-dwelling creatures, which keep the dragon informed about what is going on in the forest and surrounding area in exchange for their lives. If a green dragon lives in a forest on a hillside, it will seek to enslave hill giants, which the dragon considers its greatest enemy. A green dragon makes its lair in underground chambers far beneath its forest..."
Some players may be unable to defeat this foe. If so, that is befitting for a dragon encounter at this level of gameplay. So there should be an opportunity to go back to an earlier save and work something out with the creature by following an option in the dialog tree.
If I were writing it, the party would have to pay a hefty price to escape with their lives if they choose not to fight. I'd have them surrender all their loot--and I mean every bit of it. And/or to pay extortion to the creature and return later with an amount of gold. If the party doesn't do so, the dragon will waylay them later and the fight ensues. Not to get overcomplicated with it, but something like this would do justice an enemy of a dragon's stature.
Now, I realize that handing over the party's entire store of gear and gold toward the end of the game makes for a much tougher final battle. But some choices bear heavy consequences. The party would be left to scrap together whatever gear it can for the final showdown. There's probably still some decent weapons and armor available, just not the cream of the crop. Being able to afford much of it is another story, I suppose.
Before things get too far along in the quest and you actually encounter the dragon, you could opt out entirely.
Way I see it there are some serious pros & cons to consider with including a dragon in bg1. Some interesting points have been raised on both sides, and I am not going to touch upon all of them. So many...
The temptation is there to tackle the issue from a PnP perspective, but that is only vaguely helpful as a lot of elements from PnP does not translate well to crpg-format. Case in point with dragons in the infinity engine would be flying, in my opinion. An adult dragon in Baldur's Gate(2, to be precise) is obviously not comparable to an adult dragon around the gaming table. Guess what I am trying to say is that lore and d&d rules is one side of the coin, what is implementable in the game without cheapening one or both of them is another.
The level issue: If they raise the level cap to 11 or 12, then I don't really see the problem. At that level the first two infinity engine dragons in SoA should be a reasonable challenge. The original developers implemented spells and gear that made their dragon implementations more than possible to beat. It do require that the players know what they are doing, and that is ok with me seeing as a dragon battle in any medium of DnD should be a challenging one. This would naturally place a combat encounter near end-game, as I see many of you have pointed out already. But it could be done, make no doubt about that.
Dragon inflation(ie, cheapening the dragons in the sequel): I don't agree with the inflation issue. If anything, SoA and ToB does that job on their own. Thing is, it is not the amount of dragons that cheapens the creature, but how they are presented in the game. If the devs want to include a dragon that is "scalemail to be"(ie, beatable), it should not be just hanging around the immediate inside of a random cave. To implement a creature like a dragon would require an interesting lair(big dungeon), the dragons servants, nice plot and a fleshed out character for the dragon. They should not be the equivalent of a random encounter with nice loot and xp. With that in mind an evaluation of the SoA and ToB dragons would find many of them lacking in narrative and lore qualities. And how would a dragon in BG1 cheapen dragons in BG2 when that is already a problem within that game? It is a strange argument to be sure. Would that not necessitate that many of the interesting creatures a 11-12 level party could find an interesting and a reasonable challenge to be evaluated for "cheapening" regarding BG2? Too many mindflayers in BG2, so none in enhanced edition then? What about a nice vampire lord quest? Hmmm.... It is not the number, but how. As such, a well done dragon-romp in BG1 would probably not cheapen BG2, rather it runs the risk of making the dragons much more imposing creatures in the saga as a whole. And that is sorely needed in my humble opinion.
The inflation issue got me thinking though, and I do think it is important to consider such angles, so I am not trying to be a mean gnome or anything. Thanks to the peeps who brought it into the discussion:)
A far more important issue would be what is possibly cheapened within BG1 as standalone game. This is important to me as I view the BG-games as standalone titles with the possibility to play through them all with one character.
A dragon encounter would, if well crafted mind you, make the final battle in BG1 seem less epic. Now this is really taking a big step into opinion-territory, so bear with me. If they were to include a dragon and implement well, it could easily overshadow the main-plot and its characters. I don't want to go spoilerific on anyone, so this is more of a consideration to make for those who know what the BG1 endgame entails. A dragon would require something along the lines of that last bit to get the mood and narrative build-up working (would probably require a lot more narrative in a dragon-quest to get the story established and working).
So yeah, that's my two cents. A dragon in BG1 would not cheapen BG2 or the dragons therein, but it could seriously cheapen BG1 and its protagonist(s).
Another bold step into opinion county: Would I like to see a dragon in BG1?
Yes. Yes I would. I would even buy it as a dlc.
When I finished BG1 back in the day I found it to be one of the best implementations of the DnD experience on a computer, and to me the dragon is THE DnD creature. If they include it (in a reasonable way) BG1 would rank up as the definitive DnD game for me. But then again, it is not at all about what I personally want, but what works for the game and everyone playing it. Looking forward to see if, and in that case how the devs approach the topic.
Thanks for a good read to all you posters in this thread:)
Comments
Edit: Erm, it's just a dragon animation so I'm not quite as psyched. Also SCS scripting doesn't affect the critter. Oh well.
So we need at least one Dragon in BG:EE, because "" Dragons rules ! "".
I mean Imagine you come across a new village, in said village they speak of a local cult that has been stealing cattle, and recently even people have begun to vanish, the Mayor asks if your party is willing to look into this, verify if the cult is indeed behind it or if it's something else. As your progress you eventually find the cults main HQ, through a series of battles you defeat the leaders and learn the truth behind the cult, which is that they were worshiping a young dragon as a god, giving the events going on along the Sword Coast the Dragon was hesitant to make any moves itself, so instead it had the cult raid local villages a little at a time for food and treasure, in order to keep a eye away from it, perhaps even going so far as making the cult members appear as if part of the Iron Thrones bandits, so no attention is drawn to them.
and voila you got a nice quest chain that ends in a Dragon, makes sense why its there, and by time you even got to the Dragon you should be a level or two higher then when you started, and fair a better chance....hell maybe even make fighting the dragon optional in the sense you can talk your way out of even having to fight it (easier if a Green Dragon opposed to Whites, which overall are the most monster like of the dragons having a much lower int/wis then the rest and leaning towards CE)...
Hmm....ok this post was long so...enough is enough :P
"Green dragons... love intrigue and seek to enslave other woodland creatures, killing those who cannot be controlled or intimidated... If the target creature intrigues the dragon or appears to be difficult to deal with, the dragon will stalk the creature... Sometimes, the dragon elects to control a creature, such as a human or demi-human, through intimidation and suggestion. Green dragons like to question men, especially adventurers, to learn more about their society, abilities, what is going on in the countryside, and if there is treasure nearby... The sights and smells of the woods are pleasing to the dragon, and it considers the entire forest or woods its territory... Sometimes the dragon will enter into a relationship with other evil forest-dwelling creatures, which keep the dragon informed about what is going on in the forest and surrounding area in exchange for their lives. If a green dragon lives in a forest on a hillside, it will seek to enslave hill giants, which the dragon considers its greatest enemy. A green dragon makes its lair in underground chambers far beneath its forest..."
Some players may be unable to defeat this foe. If so, there should be an opportunity to go back to an earlier save and work something out with the creature by following an option in the dialog tree. If I were writing it, the party would pay a hefty price to escape with their lives. Perhaps surrender all their loot--and I mean every bit of it. And/or to pay extortion to the creature and return later with an amount of gold. If the party doesn't do so, the dragon will waylay them later and the fight ensues. Not to get overcomplicated with it, but something like this would do justice an enemy of a dragon's stature.
My vote would be for a very young adult green dragon who has just acquired the special ability Suggestion. Per 2ed MM
"Green dragons... love intrigue and seek to enslave other woodland creatures, killing those who cannot be controlled or intimidated... If the target creature intrigues the dragon or appears to be difficult to deal with, the dragon will stalk the creature... Sometimes, the dragon elects to control a creature, such as a human or demi-human, through intimidation and suggestion. Green dragons like to question men, especially adventurers, to learn more about their society, abilities, what is going on in the countryside, and if there is treasure nearby... The sights and smells of the woods are pleasing to the dragon, and it considers the entire forest or woods its territory... Sometimes the dragon will enter into a relationship with other evil forest-dwelling creatures, which keep the dragon informed about what is going on in the forest and surrounding area in exchange for their lives. If a green dragon lives in a forest on a hillside, it will seek to enslave hill giants, which the dragon considers its greatest enemy. A green dragon makes its lair in underground chambers far beneath its forest..."
Some players may be unable to defeat this foe. If so, that is befitting for a dragon encounter at this level of gameplay. So there should be an opportunity to go back to an earlier save and work something out with the creature by following an option in the dialog tree.
If I were writing it, the party would have to pay a hefty price to escape with their lives if they choose not to fight. I'd have them surrender all their loot--and I mean every bit of it. And/or to pay extortion to the creature and return later with an amount of gold. If the party doesn't do so, the dragon will waylay them later and the fight ensues. Not to get overcomplicated with it, but something like this would do justice an enemy of a dragon's stature.
Now, I realize that handing over the party's entire store of gear and gold toward the end of the game makes for a much tougher final battle. But some choices bear heavy consequences. The party would be left to scrap together whatever gear it can for the final showdown. There's probably still some decent weapons and armor available, just not the cream of the crop. Being able to afford much of it is another story, I suppose.
Before things get too far along in the quest and you actually encounter the dragon, you could opt out entirely.
Way I see it there are some serious pros & cons to consider with including a dragon in bg1.
Some interesting points have been raised on both sides, and I am not going to touch upon all of them. So many...
The temptation is there to tackle the issue from a PnP perspective, but that is only vaguely helpful as a lot of elements from PnP does not translate well to crpg-format. Case in point with dragons in the infinity engine would be flying, in my opinion. An adult dragon in Baldur's Gate(2, to be precise) is obviously not comparable to an adult dragon around the gaming table. Guess what I am trying to say is that lore and d&d rules is one side of the coin, what is implementable in the game without cheapening one or both of them is another.
The level issue:
If they raise the level cap to 11 or 12, then I don't really see the problem. At that level the first two infinity engine dragons in SoA should be a reasonable challenge. The original developers implemented spells and gear that made their dragon implementations more than possible to beat. It do require that the players know what they are doing, and that is ok with me seeing as a dragon battle in any medium of DnD should be a challenging one.
This would naturally place a combat encounter near end-game, as I see many of you have pointed out already. But it could be done, make no doubt about that.
Dragon inflation(ie, cheapening the dragons in the sequel):
I don't agree with the inflation issue. If anything, SoA and ToB does that job on their own.
Thing is, it is not the amount of dragons that cheapens the creature, but how they are presented in the game. If the devs want to include a dragon that is "scalemail to be"(ie, beatable), it should not be just hanging around the immediate inside of a random cave. To implement a creature like a dragon would require an interesting lair(big dungeon), the dragons servants, nice plot and a fleshed out character for the dragon. They should not be the equivalent of a random encounter with nice loot and xp. With that in mind an evaluation of the SoA and ToB dragons would find many of them lacking in narrative and lore qualities.
And how would a dragon in BG1 cheapen dragons in BG2 when that is already a problem within that game?
It is a strange argument to be sure. Would that not necessitate that many of the interesting creatures a 11-12 level party could find an interesting and a reasonable challenge to be evaluated for "cheapening" regarding BG2? Too many mindflayers in BG2, so none in enhanced edition then? What about a nice vampire lord quest? Hmmm....
It is not the number, but how. As such, a well done dragon-romp in BG1 would probably not cheapen BG2, rather it runs the risk of making the dragons much more imposing creatures in the saga as a whole.
And that is sorely needed in my humble opinion.
The inflation issue got me thinking though, and I do think it is important to consider such angles, so I am not trying to be a mean gnome or anything. Thanks to the peeps who brought it into the discussion:)
A far more important issue would be what is possibly cheapened within BG1 as standalone game. This is important to me as I view the BG-games as standalone titles with the possibility to play through them all with one character.
A dragon encounter would, if well crafted mind you, make the final battle in BG1 seem less epic. Now this is really taking a big step into opinion-territory, so bear with me.
If they were to include a dragon and implement well, it could easily overshadow the main-plot and its characters.
I don't want to go spoilerific on anyone, so this is more of a consideration to make for those who know what the BG1 endgame entails.
A dragon would require something along the lines of that last bit to get the mood and narrative build-up working (would probably require a lot more narrative in a dragon-quest to get the story established and working).
So yeah, that's my two cents. A dragon in BG1 would not cheapen BG2 or the dragons therein, but it could seriously cheapen BG1 and its protagonist(s).
Another bold step into opinion county:
Would I like to see a dragon in BG1?
Yes. Yes I would. I would even buy it as a dlc.
When I finished BG1 back in the day I found it to be one of the best implementations of the DnD experience on a computer, and to me the dragon is THE DnD creature. If they include it (in a reasonable way) BG1 would rank up as the definitive DnD game for me. But then again, it is not at all about what I personally want, but what works for the game and everyone playing it. Looking forward to see if, and in that case how the devs approach the topic.
Thanks for a good read to all you posters in this thread:)
http://i.imgur.com/XOGyG.gif
Yeah, they should definitely use "spears to the thighs" for a nice change of pace XD
As for the dragon, the court is still out on that one as far as I know.