could you change yoshimo in bg2:ee? (spoilers)

Korlamaq

so that he won't betray me?
yoshimo was by far one of my favorite npcs besides minsc and i would really love to finish the game (and ToB) with him in my party
or maybe give me a possibility to remove his geas or something

Tresset

I don't think that is possible due to contractual bindings. At least not officially. Mods would still work though.

Korlamaq

well i hope someone will make a mod then

Mordeus

You could always bring him back using the CLUAConsole. But he wouldn't have a ToB epilogue or any ToB banters.

I wonder if it could be possible to get around the contract by introducing a Priest NPC that could have resurrecting Yoshimo as part of their quest. The logic being that since Overhaul has managed to expand some of the old NPCs through their interaction with Neera, Dorn & Rasaad, it might be possible for them to expand Yoshimo through the new NPCs. They just couldn't add anymore banters, quests or an epilogue relating strictly to Yoshimo.

If not maybe they could give an option to resurrect him but it ends up creating a remarkably different Yoshimo. In that you either give the heart to the temple of Ilmater‎ who purifies it, allowing his soul to be free of the geas but you don't get to use him ever again. Or you give the heart to an evil temple like Talos or to a vampire from Bodhi's enclave who resurrects Yoshimo as an undead.

However the Yoshimo 2.0 would come back twisted from the geas, completely void of all past memories but with the same sort of devil may care personality (just now literally being a devil) and with all his thieving traits. This would fill the void of an evil thief and give Bodhi fans the chance of having a NPC afflicted with Vampirism.

I'm sure this could be done since technically Yoshimo's story would end at his death, and a new NPC would be reborn from his twisted heart. The devs could be a bit cunning by making it that when you resurrect using Yoshimo's heart you could rename the accursed creature anything you want. So Yoshimo fans could call it Yoshimo to continue his story in their minds but the default would be something like "Abomination".

Also more voice lines could be added by a new voice actor because the evil resurrection would explain his sudden chance in voice.

I don't know the in-depth details of the contract but surely taking an item like Yoshimo's Heart and using it for a resurrection quest wouldn't be a violation. Even if it is, then they could make it that removing the geas and purifying the heart created a being made of all Yoshimo's evil wandering around Amn who could later be added to the party. The connection wouldn't be explicit but it could be implied to be a piece of Yoshimo still bound to the mortal plane.

I think I might put this in the feature request section.

shawne

Not a fan of this idea at all. Even taking into account the fact that BG is a video game and that its story is flexible to a certain extent, being able to undo or sidestep dramatic events just renders the whole thing meaningless. A lot of people liked Yoshimo, myself included, and that made his death a memorable moment in BG2 - bringing him back would be like bringing back the Virmire casualty in "Mass Effect".

ZanathKariashi

Actually, Yoshimo WAS supposed to come back, there's a few bits and pieces of dialogue for him in later quests. He even has lines at the tree when everyone is doing their group support thing before facing Irenicus or when first arriving in hell, long after he would've been dead by the current script.

Due to time constraints the redemption questline was cut. The Priest can't raise him because of the Geas, nor can his soul pass into the afterlife. You were supposed to have the opportunity to go on a quest to break the Geas, after which you get the option of letting him go to the afterlife, revive him and send him on his way, or revive him and let him rejoin the party to get revenge on Irenicus.

Hell, ToB was supposed to have him confront Sarevok over Tamoko's disappearance and eventual fate, if they were used in a party together. Big S even has 2 unused lines where he's talking to Yoshimo about her. It's one of a GREAT many things that ended up cut from ToB due to their extreme time constraints.

Imryll

I'd be OK with them reinstating a redemption questline, but the betrayal is basic to the story and should remain.

elvis_minor

I don't want to live in a (virtual) world in which Yoshimo is not a traitor... It's one of the best twists in the story and to change it would be to cheapen it, in my opinion...

mlnevese

I would have to agree that a redemption would be interesting, but his betrayal and death MUST happen. That was one of the most unexpected things to me when I first played BG2. The forced betrayal made me REALLY want to kill Irenicus in game. First he kidnapped a party member now he forces a friend to betray me? That wizard is gonna pay!

A questline to bring him back from death and redeem him would be nice though. But it should not be obvious. It shouldn't even start before you exit the Underdark. No hint at all before that

the_spyder

I'm not a fan of the idea either. He might be a popular character, but his betrayal and death are part of the story. Making it so you can simply bring him back (or maybe not so simply, whatever...) just seems to cheapen it (TO ME).

But if there was enough interest and they somehow did it, I guess that would be OK. I'd just hope they did it well, and I'd just never make use of it personally.

KidCarnival

It looks like the position of a thief NPC has been filled with a new evil female NPC.

Even if not, I agree that reviving and rejoining would cheapen the story. I'd much rather see Xzar and Montaron returning; they exist, but have a very very minor role. Nothing to lose, all to win on that front.

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the_spyder

if they are going to try and "Fill the Thief" role, I agree that Montaron (with or without Xzar) would be excellent. I also think that they could bring back Tiax. He is there as well.

And if they simply want to create someone new, that is fine as well. I don't want to take something out of the hands of consumers, but (I think) allowing Yoshimo to be redeemed would equally be taking something out of the fans' hands.

ZanathKariashi

well the thing is...Yoshimo only betrays you because he has literally no choice in the matter, nothing about that whole plot point would change, except that he gets the opportunity to redeem his honor and seek vengeance on Irenicus for forcing to him do it. His betrayal and death wouldn't change..the only difference is that once you take his heart to the priest of Illmater, you'd have the option to explain the situation about the Geas, and then have the choice to quest and have it removed, then you'd be able to get him back if you desired, as originally intended.

And as dialog files in the game prove, he was supposed to be able to return in chapter 6 and go through the end of the game. (and even into ToB as mentioned above)

the_spyder

Well, he may have been intended to come back, but then Imoen was intended to Die in Spellhold. Are people going to want to change that as well? I hope not.

At the end of the day, regardless of what was planned, what was released has stood for 12 years and has been applauded as one of the best CRPGs ever created. I don't see a significant need to change it.

It's like the whole 'Greedo fired first' thing.

BlueSorceress

If contractual limitations permit, I'd like to see the originally intended quest for Yoshimo restored. He was my favorite BG2 character, and once I discovered that I could add him back in with a console code that was the first thing I did after I had to kill him in all subsequent games.

I always felt very unsatisfied with not having the option to redeem and resurrect him, particularly when I discovered that the opportunity to do so was cut not for story reasons but because of something as banal as time restraints. There's so much character development and interaction already there, and so much interesting potential to be developed that I don't feel like it would be doing the game a disservice. He'd continue to fill the thief role admirably for a good/neutral party even with the addition of a new evil female thief character to the game. Also, my deep and abiding resentment for Imoen would probably be notably diminished.

Those who want him to stay dead for whatever reason - RP, preference for the way things originally played out, etc. - could just not follow through with the quest and leave him in corpseville.

That said and all wishes aside, I don't think it will happen, but it would make me a very happy gamer if it did.

- Blue

ZanathKariashi

As above, Imeon was saved due to Fans demanding it...Yoshimo was cut off only due to time constraints. There's a big difference there.


Han shooting first isn't even an argument, it's fact. Lucas just went and retouched it, because after the first movie Han went from an assholish merc to a hero, and changed his mind about the initial characterization, which as most fans agree was retarded. Han became a hero, he didn't start as one. That example is actually closer to Imeon being saved, then fixing Yoshimo's story. She was literally slated to die, but was retconned out from the original script because the fan beta testers didn't like it. Yoshimo was always intended to come back, but it just never happened due to time constraints.

David Gaider has openly said not being able to fully implement Yoshimo's storyline was one of his regrets about the BG saga ,since they had so much planned, not only in SoA but for the 3rd game (which eventually withered into a VERY linear x-pack, aka ToB) as well.

Coutelier

ZanathKariashi said:

well the thing is...Yoshimo only betrays you because he has literally no choice in the matter, nothing about that whole plot point would change, except that he gets the opportunity to redeem his honor and seek vengeance on Irenicus for forcing to him do it. His betrayal and death wouldn't change..the only difference is that once you take his heart to the priest of Illmater, you'd have the option to explain the situation about the Geas, and then have the choice to quest and have it removed, then you'd be able to get him back if you desired, as originally intended.

When you put it like that, I'm starting to feel quite sold on the idea; it wouldn't be changing anything that already exists as part of the game, just adding something new. No other dialogue or quests significantly altered, except presumably Yoshimo would have more to say to all his other companions.

But it's whoever they have the contract that you'd have to convince... and I've a feeling they won't budge, at least not in the time that's left until BG2:EE is released.

ZanathKariashi

Well technically...as mentioned above...he already has some lines for later events in SoA...I mean..it's hilarious, a dead guy has more lines for the end-game content AFTER his death, that he can't normally by the current script be at without cheating, then Imeon does.

Debaser

ZanathKariashi said:

Actually, Yoshimo WAS supposed to come back, there's a few bits and pieces of dialogue for him in later quests. He even has lines at the tree when everyone is doing their group support thing before facing Irenicus or when first arriving in hell, long after he would've been dead by the current script.

Due to time constraints the redemption questline was cut. The Priest can't raise him because of the Geas, nor can his soul pass into the afterlife. You were supposed to have the opportunity to go on a quest to break the Geas, after which you get the option of letting him go to the afterlife, revive him and send him on his way, or revive him and let him rejoin the party to get revenge on Irenicus.

Hell, ToB was supposed to have him confront Sarevok over Tamoko's disappearance and eventual fate, if they were used in a party together. Big S even has 2 unused lines where he's talking to Yoshimo about her. It's one of a GREAT many things that ended up cut from ToB due to their extreme time constraints.

@ZanathKariashi - I think if the dialog is recorded and the lines are available for use reinstating the minimal extra dialog between some characters and writing a bit more text script would be pretty easy to do. Are these audio files listenable? But I have always thought it was lame you couldn't bring him back. So I'm for it. It certainly doesn't ruin the plot.

Quartz

ZanathKariashi said:

Actually, Yoshimo WAS supposed to come back, there's a few bits and pieces of dialogue for him in later quests. He even has lines at the tree when everyone is doing their group support thing before facing Irenicus or when first arriving in hell, long after he would've been dead by the current script.

Due to time constraints the redemption questline was cut. The Priest can't raise him because of the Geas, nor can his soul pass into the afterlife. You were supposed to have the opportunity to go on a quest to break the Geas, after which you get the option of letting him go to the afterlife, revive him and send him on his way, or revive him and let him rejoin the party to get revenge on Irenicus.

Hell, ToB was supposed to have him confront Sarevok over Tamoko's disappearance and eventual fate, if they were used in a party together. Big S even has 2 unused lines where he's talking to Yoshimo about her. It's one of a GREAT many things that ended up cut from ToB due to their extreme time constraints.

Exactly. I just want someone to mod those lines into the game, and voila.

(Also we're missing a Haer'Dalis and Valygar romance, people. Same deal, "time constraints.")

ReadingRambo

I loved yoshimo, but his betrayal was a cool part of the story. Wouldn't want him brought back in BG 2.

In ToB I must admit my heart skipped a beat in excitement when I saw the yoshimo option when rounding up the crew with the solar

FrozenCells

I don't care about dramatic impact, Yoshimo was at the upper end of interesting NPCs and I would like to see more.

Wait what, Haer'Dalis and Valygar?

The_New_Romance

I'm in favour of reinstating the original Yoshimo storyline. Then again, I'm not too sure whether Beamdog can actually pull it off nicely, but even if not, I'd rather have the option. One needn't resurrect him if the writing turns out to be cheesy.