Skull trap

bryn

I do not find that the skull trap is all that sensitive. I have often lay one by a doorway see monsters walk past it without setting it off.

Debaser

I usually cast two...if one goes off they both do...But it's potentially a lot more damaging than a fireball.

Chow

I once walked right past it, close enough to touch it, four times without it setting off. It seems to be kind of a crapshoot.

@Debaser: Fireball caps at 10d6 on tenth level, which a wizard cannot reach during the game: Skull Trap only becomes stronger than Fireball in Baldur's Gate 2.

EnterHaerDalis

Yeah this happens to me sometimes and it really discourages me from using it....then when it doesn't go off sometimes your forced to take your tank and take it on the chin

Debaser

@Chow, Bards can really rock that spell, casting Skull Trap at a higher level of damage for them than they would a fireball..and in BG2 it does get stronger...but I like both a lot.

I do think that Fireball is much more immediate...also I think multiple casts of skull trap helps your odds to set one off causing a chain explosion, which again...adds up to more than one fireball with premeditation.

Course...you can spam fireball too if you have a couple casters, but cast times are a factor and the enemies can run away from where you cast towards you when the fight is underway.

Skull trap is not perfect and maybe needs a look, but when it goes off it's seriously powerful.

Chow

Debaser said:

@Chow, Bards can really rock that spell, casting Skull Trap at a higher level of damage for them than they would a fireball..

Even bards do not get past 10th level: no matter what level they are, Fireball and Skull Trap are of equal damage.

ZanathKariashi

A BG:EE wild mage can potentially cast up to a 14d6 skull trap, while fireball caps at 10, no matter how high their caster level adjustment is. Also, magic damage isn't partially resisted by anything, it either works or it doesn't while fire can be partially by fire resistance or fully resisted with MR or Immunities. There's only 1 spell and 1 item that specifically reduce magical damage, and they're both ridiculously rare, even with modded spell-casters.

Debaser

@Chow you are right...hrmn wasn't thinking in context of the first game only....dug up this....from an old forum...

Ranges. The description says: range 20, area of effect 30. But in reality it comes like this: (throwing) range 30, triggering/area of effect: 20.

Damage. The description says: 1d6 per level - The good thing is that there is no cap. The damage is a magically created physical damage and there are few enemies resistant to pure magical damage, which is why people like to choose it over Fireball for low-level AoE damage.

You can use Protection from Magical Energy (lvl 6) e.g. to protect a front liner or two if you want to cast a few of these into a melee.. It can't be catched with stoneskin, but a mirror image could usually catch it (in 7/8 of cases with a fresh casting). The damage can be decreased with magic absorbing like with the Belt of Inertia and (as 3rd level spell) even a minor globe of invulnerability can totally avoid the effects.

Triggering. This is the most problematic thing about the spell. It seems to have a random triggering, which is influenced by the total time spent in the triggering area. One fast moving target will have much less chance to trigger it, than many static ones.

Comparison, conclusion. The fireball is capped at level 10

ZanathKariashi

The triggering thing is probably a bug. They're supposed to have hair triggers that will set off instantly from ANYTHING entering their aoe radius once they reach their destination. A trigger radius of 15, vs the effect range of 20 sounds pretty good. That would allow the chance for several enemies to enter the aoe zone before it goes off.

AHF

Unless you are a sorcerer or using it as a trap (laying several and then baiting the opposition), fireball is almost always better in BG1. There are very few opponents that are fire resistant in BG1 and several that you need fire to defeat. While your fighter can't get resistance against magic damage in BG1, they can get immune to fire so it won't hurt them or can even heal them. There is no issue of triggering (I had a skull trap not go off when I walked on top of it multiple times earlier this week) and the range is farther for fireball.

As a mage or a wild mage, why pick between them when you can learn both spells and then just pick the one that is more suited to the situation? Fireball for 99% of BG1 and skull trap for BG2/TOB.

ZanathKariashi

Umm...skull traps are infinitely more useful...literally, the only enemies in the whole saga that skull trap can't kill, that aren't immune to magic, are trolls.

and due to the ease at which Wands of fire can be acquired in both games, there's literally no reason to ever learn the spell. Yes it deals 4 less hit dice if you're 10+, but doesn't take up any spell slots...so..win.

99.7% of the time, Skull trap is superior...and here's the thing...Skull trap is not only superior to the 3rd level fireball, it's superior to DELAYED BLAST FIREBALL, a 7th level spell. Delayed blast has the same cast and wait property as Skull Trap, but only scales up to level 15, while Skull trap cruises right on past.

Chow

ZanathKariashi said:

The triggering thing is probably a bug. They're supposed to have hair triggers that will set off instantly from ANYTHING entering their aoe radius once they reach their destination. A trigger radius of 15, vs the effect range of 20 sounds pretty good. That would allow the chance for several enemies to enter the aoe zone before it goes off.

If that's how it's supposed to be, then it has never worked right for me, whether in Baldur's Gate 1 or 2, or Icewind Dales. At its best, it explodes if something comes within a foot or so of it - but as has been said in this thread, even that is not for certain.

AHF

ZanathKariashi said:

Umm...skull traps are infinitely more useful...literally, the only enemies in the whole saga that skull trap can't kill, that aren't immune to magic, are trolls.

The fissure (?) slime in Durlag's Tower also requires fire to kill and is vulnerable to magic attacks (like fireball).

99.7% of the time, Skull trap is superior...and here's the thing...Skull trap is not only superior to the 3rd level fireball, it's superior to DELAYED BLAST FIREBALL, a 7th level spell. Delayed blast has the same cast and wait property as Skull Trap, but only scales up to level 15, while Skull trap cruises right on past.

In BG1, the ratio is flipped. In the vast majority of situations, fireball is at least as good as skull trap because very few enemies are fire resistant. Once you add in the limited range and inconsistent triggering, there is nothing superior about fireball against almost all enemies in BG1 except when you encounter the uncommon fire resistant opponents (phoenix guard, etc.). Skull trap only cruises past either fireball or skull trap in damage in BG2. If I have a sorcerer, I take skull trap. If I have a mage, in BG1 I more frequently use fireball.

ZanathKariashi

Well..technically the PnP version explodes on contact with the ground if thrown as the spell is cast, or you can set it in position and then cast the spell to activate it and it explodes if something strikes it or a living creature touches it.

It would actually be interesting if they made it neutral and attackable...if there are enemies present when it lands, it explodes immediately, or if not, it becomes a neutral, immoveable creature you could shoot a ranged weapon or spell at to set it off once enemies were in range.


Except you're overlooking the ease of acquiring Wands of fire, that make learning and memorizing fireball a waste of a slot. You're better using slow, dispel, haste, or skull trap for those slots. I mean literally, you can get a 50 charge wand of fire, for free, immediately after leaving Candlekeep. When you can then use to laughably blast your way through every encounter all the way through chapter 4 before the charges start getting low, at which point you could buy an extra from that merchant at the beginning of Durlag's Tower zone, to see you through the rest of the game.

Quartz

I don't use it as a trap. I just throw it in the middle of enemies. Problem solved.

AHF

Quartz said:

I don't use it as a trap. I just throw it in the middle of enemies. Problem solved.

And for this purpose, the fireball hits with the same damage over a larger area of effect and with a longer range. Seems like a no-brainer against all but the few fire resistant enemies.

Quartz

@AHF

AHF said:

Quartz said:

I don't use it as a trap. I just throw it in the middle of enemies. Problem solved.

And for this purpose, the fireball hits with the same damage over a larger area of effect and with a longer range. Seems like a no-brainer against all but the few fire resistant enemies.

Didn't we already have this argument? Skull Trap caps out at a higher damage rate. But if we're only taking BG1 levels into consideration, then it uses Breath Weapon which almost every creature in the game has a higher Breath Weapon save than Spell save so you get the full damage more often.

AHF

Quartz said:

@AHF

AHF said:

Quartz said:

I don't use it as a trap. I just throw it in the middle of enemies. Problem solved.

And for this purpose, the fireball hits with the same damage over a larger area of effect and with a longer range. Seems like a no-brainer against all but the few fire resistant enemies.

Didn't we already have this argument? Skull Trap caps out at a higher damage rate. But if we're only taking BG1 levels into consideration, then it uses Breath Weapon which almost every creature in the game has a higher Breath Weapon save than Spell save so you get the full damage more often.

I don't think we've argued on this but it is a topic that has been covered before. The breath weapon save is a valid argument for BG1. The higher damage cap isn't. Unless you are talking about a sorcerer with an immutable spell list, you are picking between two options for BG1 so SOA/TOB concerns don't come into the picture for BG:EE. If you are only placing these in crowds, the trap trigger issue is sufficiently low % concern but I have found that this can be an issue when trying to use it against charging opponents who might move out of range of the trigger but who are 100% caught by the fireball.

The difference is typically better range and better area of effect for fireball versus 10-15% save advantage for skull trap. Still weighs towards fireball primarily for the range (significantly easier to place strategically), IMO, but I think reasonable minds can differ on this.

Chow

Quartz said:

Didn't we already have this argument? Skull Trap caps out at a higher damage rate. But if we're only taking BG1 levels into consideration, then it uses Breath Weapon which almost every creature in the game has a higher Breath Weapon save than Spell save so you get the full damage more often.

We did have this argument, but you never brought up the breath weapon. You just said I was unreasonable and bailed out. Really, you never even offered too many good arguments against the stuff I said there either: for instance, how am I dealing with the fact that the enemies can see me while I cast Skull Trap, unlike with Fireball which I can fire from behind their field of vision, giving them time to retaliate?

I still think Fireball is superior in the first Baldur's Gate, and most enemies I would use it against would die even if they did make their save.

Oxford_Guy

I love Skulltrap, one of the reasons I'm not so keen on illusionists...

SirK8

@ZanathKariashi - Where can I get this 50 charge wand of fire for free immediately after leaving candlekeep? Serious inquiry. Thanks.

ZanathKariashi said:

Well..technically the PnP version explodes on contact with the ground if thrown as the spell is cast, or you can set it in position and then cast the spell to activate it and it explodes if something strikes it or a living creature touches it.

It would actually be interesting if they made it neutral and attackable...if there are enemies present when it lands, it explodes immediately, or if not, it becomes a neutral, immoveable creature you could shoot a ranged weapon or spell at to set it off once enemies were in range.


Except you're overlooking the ease of acquiring Wands of fire, that make learning and memorizing fireball a waste of a slot. You're better using slow, dispel, haste, or skull trap for those slots. I mean literally, you can get a 50 charge wand of fire, for free, immediately after leaving Candlekeep. When you can then use to laughably blast your way through every encounter all the way through chapter 4 before the charges start getting low, at which point you could buy an extra from that merchant at the beginning of Durlag's Tower zone, to see you through the rest of the game.

ZanathKariashi

Ankheg Den, in the treasure pit. Unless you've got high stealth, it's highly recommended to grab 2 invisibility potions first (Jaheria has 1, and there's one in that rich guy's house in Beregost, there's also a 30 charge wand of lightning in the same room)

Makes doing a solo Bard run a joke.

TJ_Hooker

Quartz said:

@AHF

AHF said:

Quartz said:

I don't use it as a trap. I just throw it in the middle of enemies. Problem solved.

And for this purpose, the fireball hits with the same damage over a larger area of effect and with a longer range. Seems like a no-brainer against all but the few fire resistant enemies.

Didn't we already have this argument? Skull Trap caps out at a higher damage rate. But if we're only taking BG1 levels into consideration, then it uses Breath Weapon which almost every creature in the game has a higher Breath Weapon save than Spell save so you get the full damage more often.

Just tried it out in BG:EE, both spells use save vs. spells.

bbear

On a different note, this is what happens when I abuse the "trap" system of skull traps and glyth wardings (3 images):

And there are still 2 traps not yet triggered despite my character dancing around them.

Chow

Damn, I just put a million thief traps on that spot.

[Deleted User]

Chow said:

for instance, how am I dealing with the fact that the enemies can see me while I cast Skull Trap, unlike with Fireball which I can fire from behind their field of vision, giving them time to retaliate?

Really? I just had Edwin cast a Skull Trap in the Cloakwood Mines without retaliation from the enemies in the room. Granted, the casting range is noticeably shorter so there's less margin for error, but it's totally doable.

Djimmy

ZanathKariashi said:

Umm...skull traps are infinitely more useful...literally, the only enemies in the whole saga that skull trap can't kill, that aren't immune to magic, are trolls.

Not only trolls. Fission slims would be undefeatable if you don't use fire on them. They will fission and overwhelm you if you try to kill them with Skull Trap.

"Fission Slime - an off-shoot of the slimes and molds, this particular slime will split into new and independent creatures when hit. It is vulnerable to fire, which will kill it permanently." - Elminster's Ecologies: Appendix IIIa

Quartz

TJ_Hooker said:

Quartz said:

@AHF

AHF said:

Quartz said:

I don't use it as a trap. I just throw it in the middle of enemies. Problem solved.

And for this purpose, the fireball hits with the same damage over a larger area of effect and with a longer range. Seems like a no-brainer against all but the few fire resistant enemies.

Didn't we already have this argument? Skull Trap caps out at a higher damage rate. But if we're only taking BG1 levels into consideration, then it uses Breath Weapon which almost every creature in the game has a higher Breath Weapon save than Spell save so you get the full damage more often.

Just tried it out in BG:EE, both spells use save vs. spells.

Worst.
Fucking.
Change.
Ever.

Yeah, just get rid of the best aspect of a spell Beamdog. Real cool guys.

Tresset

Chow said:

Damn, I just put a million thief traps on that spot.

Good grief! I swear that that is nearly EVERYONE'S answer to a hard fight. I for one am getting a little sick of this patern:

Noob: How beat hard fight?
Pro: Just set like a million thief traps.
Noob: K.

Can't people think of ANYTHING else EVER?!?!?!?!

AHF

Tresset said:

Chow said:

Damn, I just put a million thief traps on that spot.

Good grief! I swear that that is nearly EVERYONE'S answer to a hard fight. I for one am getting a little sick of this patern:

Noob: How beat hard fight?
Pro: Just set like a million thief traps.
Noob: K.

Can't people think of ANYTHING else EVER?!?!?!?!

In defense of bbear's trap setting, I believe that was on a no leveling run where he created Charname and didn't level up Charname or any of the NPCs for the entire SOA/TOB saga. Given those constraints, some cheese is required.

There are lots of ways up the mountain in BG. Massive amounts of traps are an overkill/easy approach for certain, but I see lots of people taking different approaches so I am not sure this is a huge problem for posters on this site. Personally, I like trying lots of different approaches and the posts on here reflect a pretty good range of approaches by posters on here.

Lifat

I really only used skull traps excessively once. And I was stuck inside the planar sphere and up against the big demon outside. I couldn't figure out how to defeat it. Finally I made a crescent moon of skull traps (a lot of skull traps) boosted a char's speed. Ran up to the demon and got it to follow the char. Then I ran into the crescent moon circle without triggering them and then I ran around them standing on the other side. Demon entered the crescent moon and got torn out of the universe